Talk:Michaëlle Jean

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Contents

[edit] First non-Canadian family

It is important to note that "Vice-Regal" is spelled with a capital "V" and "R" and has a hyphen in it, according the Governor General of Canada's website. (See "Vice-Regal Salute" at http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/emblems_e.asp) TO220740

  • No, a "Vice-Regal Salute" is a specific protocol with a specific proper name. Proper names are capitalized; in normal usage, words such as "viceregal" are not capitalized if they're not appearing in proper names. Bearcat 23:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Jean's family is the first non-Canadian viceregal family. Many of Canada's GGs in the past have been British. JohnnyB 16:05, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Not to mention Irish. In fact, Charles Stanley Monck, 4th Viscount Monck, the first Governor General of Canada (who was also the last GG of the Province of Canada) was born in Ireland, as were his wife and children. --Westendgirl 23:38, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Monck would probably not have called himself Irish, any more than he called himself Canadian. Perhaps this is more relevant in the context of Irish history than Canadian, but as the Duke of Wellington (another Irish born Brit) so succinctly put the matter: "Being born in a barn doesn't make one a hors". Anti-Irish sentiments of the period aside, it is still probably more proper to consider him "British" given that is how the anglo-Irish saw themselves. --Chaleur 18:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of Canada

It is also important to note that upon her appointment as GG, Jean will automatically be appointed to the Order of Canada as the rank of Companion (C.C). Her spouse will also become a C.C, bring the total up to 165, the maximum allowed under law. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:08, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Correction, after these two appointments, four more people can be appointed to the rank of Companion. There are four honorary Companions and they do not count towards the 165 limit. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:31, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Question: what would have happened if there had already been a full complement of 165+4=169 when a new GG was appointed? Loganberry (Talk) 23:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Honestly, I have no clue. But when spots open up, I assume the new General General takes the spot automatically. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:42, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
According to Order of Canada, at one point "there were 166 living Companions", so presumably they'd just go over the limit. "Exceptional circumstances", probably. Peter T.S. 00:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe that this refers to the total, including honourary Companions. FiveParadox 05:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The Order Constitution only calls for three automatic appointments: the Canadian Monarch, the GG and their spouse, and it takes place on their appointment to their positition. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:44, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I will keep a close eye on this and see when Michaelle and her husband are appointed and provide citations once I get them. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Also, Michaelle will be be awarded the Order of Military Merit (Canada), with the rank of Commander (CMM), and most likely the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, with the rank of Companion (COM). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Professor

The notes under Jean's photo give her the title of professor. There's no reference to this in the body. --Westendgirl 23:32, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I have seen on the blogs that she is a "professor emeritus at the University of Ottawa," but I cannot find a good source to back it up with. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The UoO reference was for Monique Bégin, a name floated around as a candidate for the job. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=558 says: "From 1984 to 1986, she taught at the Faculty of Italian Studies at the University of Montreal (printed as same university)." Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
But that doesn't make her a professor. It just means she taught a course. She was likely a grad student at the time and serving as a teaching assistant. I think it is a misnomer to have "professor" as her job title, especially if we're talking about 2 years out of 26.--Westendgirl 18:18, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I will remove it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Government websites sais that Jean's husband was a professor, but not Jean herself. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:27, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Wait, the Toronto Globe and Mail said Jean herself was a professor. [1]. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the Globe jumped a little to conclusions, something we have the liberty of time to avoid. U de Montréal says she taught Italian Studies while taking her Masters in Comparative Lit. Something which many grad students do but are not, strictly, professors. DoubleBlue (Talk) 19:37, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
And, as Westend girl says above, it was only for two years as compared to her two decades as a journalist/tv host. DoubleBlue (Talk) 19:39, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I will make the changes once I finish my lunch. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:41, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Don't ruin your meal with Wikipedia. Have a beer instead! :-) DoubleBlue (Talk) 19:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Maybe in 2007 :) Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:49, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

There may be some linguistic confusion going on, since the French professeur doesn't have the same connotations as the English professor. Jonathan David Makepeace 03:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Where's the reference for her religion?--Westendgirl 23:55, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I am trying to find it out. BTW, do you like Pet Shop Boys by any chance? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
In all seriosness, I think that someone might put her religion down as that because of either taking a wild guess or confusing information. She did work on Roman Catholic documentries, but I cannot find anything relating to her religion at all. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Shes Catholic, I just heard it on CFRB Toronto, which is a pretty reliable news station. Although they did report she was Canada's youngest GG ever; so they aren't 100% accurate.
I read about the latter part about her being the youngest GG, but I wasn't finding anything about her religion at all. We can always get it back in (though you might hear something before I do). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:40, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I can't find anything that says she's Catholic. And we don't know whether CFRB is taking a guess -- it happens. I wouldn't doubt that people would assume her religion, based on her background. But that doesn't mean it's right. Is there a reason we list the religion anyway? (Perhaps for context, such as Jeanne Sauve & the non campaign.) Oh, and, while I know the Pet Shop Boys song well, it's more a reference to my neighbourhood. --Westendgirl 18:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I am also having a hard time finding it, but we have some time to wait and see if she says anything publicly or we see her and her family attend mass. However, I do agree with you, it might have been added based on her background. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I can't find anything other than this fragment but this suggests she's probably an atheist or an agnostic, since she is not swearing in to the GG's post on a bible. Of note, "She's not going to swear on the Bible because she is not practising herself, so it would show a lack of respect to the people who have faith," Dze27 01:04, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Are there specific religious requirements to attend Catholic universities? She attended a few Catholic institutions. As well, she could just be a non-practising Catholic. Homagetocatalonia, 19:05 UTC 28/09/2005
Most Quebecois are. Carolynparrishfan 13:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Governer General

When was the last time the governer general was a Briton?


[edit] Crown Copyright Photo

Image:Michaelle Jean and Jean-Daniel Lafond.jpg
Image:Michaelle Jean and Jean-Daniel Lafond.jpg

There is a prelim photo relased by the PMO office: http://www.pm.gc.ca/grfx/jean.jpg. We can claim CanadaCopyright on this one. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:47, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I uploaded it to the right. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The photos look great at their present locations. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
How do we know that this is CrownCopyright? The PM's page just says there's a high resolution picture. Of course, I'd assume they own the copyright. But how do we know for sure? --Westendgirl 18:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Seems clear enough to me from http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=558 that it's a promo photo from the PMO which is very acceptable on WP. If someone objects that it's their copyrighted photo, it can be deleted then. DoubleBlue (Talk) 18:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
That is where I got the photo from, so that is why I cited the photo as Canadian Crown Copyright. I know there will be an official photo released soon after her investure and I think there will be one of her wearing her Order of Canada Companion medal. Her husband will have a new photo too of him wearing his Companion medal. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I just wondered why the PMO didn't say it was for use in the public domain. --Westendgirl 20:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Awards and other info

Info that isn't mentioned in the article that you might want to confirm and add: She has won - the Amnesty International Journalism Award in 1995 (a 15-part series on women) - the 1994 Anik Prize for information reporting - the 2000 Galaxi Award for best information program host.

The documentaries she has worked with Jean-Daniel Lafond to produce - L'heure de Cuba (1999) - 40th anniversary of the Cuban revolution - Tropique Nord (1994)- condition of blacks in Quebec - Haiti dans tous nos rêves (1995).

There is a lot of other info there too - http://www.cbc.ca/programguide/personality/index.jsp?personality=Jean%2C+Michaelle&program=Passionate+Eye

  • There is also a bunch of things too people will be working on. We will get many people to this article in the next few days. Also, I will not be surprised is she is appointed to the National Order of Quebec. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:03, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

I would presume that 'Her Excellency', 'Right Honourable', the various Orders, etc will all be conferred at the same time. Is there any reason these might not all come on Sept 27? Just want to be sure the bases are covered... Radagast 03:11, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

I started the post-nominals by putting MA up for her Masters degree. Once she becomes GG, her post-nominals (alphabet soup as I like to call them), should be: CC, CMM, COM, MA. I know I will be missing a few, or a few will be added that we never knew of. Her titles and her salute will be first used during the Investure ceremony. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:16, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I knew it, I was missing one: The Canadian Forces Decoration. Every GG is awarded the medal, and the post nominals is CD. This is done because the Governor-General is ex-officio, Commander in Chief of the Canadian Forces. [2]. The nominals, should be, hopefully: CC, CMM, COM, CD, MA. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Is there actually a reference for any Wikipedia policy indicating that we're even supposed to begin the article with "The Rt. Hon. Name, CC, CMM, COM, ETC."? I'm fairly sure that's actually not the Wikistandard, though I suppose I could be wrong. Bearcat 03:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I know people were having a problem with pre-fixed styles, like His Holiness, Dear Leader, The Rt. Hon.; but to my knowledge, I did not think we have a problem with post-nominal letters. But, we can use the post-nominal letters, since they are showing an honor earned, like the Order of Canada. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:47, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Clarkson's page starts out as Her Excellency The Right Honourable Adrienne Louise Clarkson, CC, CMM, COM, CD, LL.D, MA. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:48, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Present policy, style or not, I think it's entirely appropriate to use important titles and post-nominals in first reference. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
There is no policy to styles that I could find. I still say we should use it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, to be honest, to me it comes across more like Excessive Deference to the Authoritah of Our Social Betterstm than like an honest attempt to impart useful information...but if that's the consensus, I guess I'll just have to live with it... Bearcat 03:58, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I think we will only add The Rt. Hon... once she is investured. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
WP:MOS only says "Honorific prefixes should be used in the article text where appropriate, but not included in the entry title." DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:20, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I hope nobody minds, but since nobody has spoken on this issue in quite some time, and her title has changed this the most recent comment here, I have elected to change the name in the introduction; I hope nobody minds! If so, then chastise me most severely.  ;) FiveParadox 05:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Should we have links to blogs or should we stick with links like the CBC? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, clearly I would need to be convinced that a blog is a reputable source for anything than one person's view. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The one that was added belongs to those who support the monarchy. I suggest we remove it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I slyly said clearly above because I had already done so before seeing your talk notice. :-) DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I am trying more to engage in discussion, since dealing with a page like this, people will come here a bunch looking for intel on Mme. Jean. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
You are quite right and it's good for others to see what's already been discussed and decided. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
We also need a reaction section, since as an annon pointed out, Jean could be supportive of a free Quebec. I also should look at what Bearcat posted on the article and try to make that into a legit paragraph. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Case for her being a Quebec separatist

1. Jean-Daniel Lafond's La Liberté en colère is a documentary about the men behind the FLQ crisis and is considered quite sympathetic to the separatist cause.

2. A memo written by a Quebec journalism student interning at Radio-Canada, Mme. Jean's (now-former) place of employment:

Selon mes sources bien informees, qui tous une une tres grande admiration pour Michaelle, celle-ci aurait des opinions politiques tres tranchees. Notamment, elle aurait souvent manifeste son nationalisme quebecois, son penchant en faveur de la souverainete du Quebec et son opposition A cette institution vetuste qu'est la representation de la Reine d'Angleterre au Canada.

Here's a rough translation (corrections/improvements welcome):

Acccording to my well-informed sources, all of whom greatly admire Michaelle, she has some very open political opinions. Notably, she often made her Quebec nationalism known, her preference in favour of Quebec sovereignty and her opposition to the antiquated institution of the Queen of England's representative in Canada.

The post goes on to say that Mme. Jean took a long time to decide to accept Martin's offer, and, according to his sources, did so in the end because she saw it as a good way to advance the causes she cares about: child poverty, violence against women, and the situation in Haiti.

Now, it could be that Mme. Jean is just a Quebec nationalist. Not all nationalists are separatists, of course.

67.175.244.75 (talk • contribs) Moved from article page by DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:44, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I seen this from a few blogs. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I say "POV bullshit", for what it's worth. Bearcat 04:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. A film considered sympathetic by someone and a fawning intern who says he thinks she has separatist leanings. Not exactly reliable sources. I'll let her words and actions speak for her. DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:01, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I think Paul Martin, as an avowed federalist and the leader of the most federalist Canadian party, would have been careful not to reccommend a Québec separatist or nationalist as GG. Escheffel 02:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know the name of the documentary where Michaëlle is supposedly toasting to Québec independence with former FLQ members? The one where she supposedly made her "independence cannot be given" comment? It seems if this footage would be either validated or denounced once and for all, we could all know the truth. I would really like to track this footage down and see it for myself. (User talk:Ossian27)

[edit] Name Pronounciation

I think the correct pronounciation of her first name should definitely be put on her page. It's a fairly uncommon name and I've heard different news outlets pronounce it differently

Of course, but I think it is placed after the post-nominal letters in brackets. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
It's "MEEK-ayl" isn't it? --NDP logo Earl Andrew - talk 05:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
From the above post, it almost sounds like Mikhail. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:32, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Three syllables. The ë kind of does double duty as an e at the end of second syllable and another e at the start of third. DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, that sounds good to me, but I do not know where we can get the official pronounciation. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I dont think it's 3 syllables for the same reason my name, "Earl" is not two. --NDP logo Earl Andrew - talk 06:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
  • That's because your name doesn't have the diaeresis mark. That what's make it have an extra syllable, separating the e from the a. DoubleBlue (Talk) 06:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Just to note that a user (can't remember who and couldn't be bothered to look it up) created a redirect from Michelle Jean. I think that's reasonable, since the spelling of her name is a bit unfamiliar to some and I can almost guarantee that some media outlets have been pronouncing it that way. (Even I used to mentally pronounce her name as "Michelle" before the first time I heard it pronounced otherwise.) Bearcat 06:15, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I have no problems with it either, since everytime I use the official name we have here, or the variation without the umlaut, I always get "Did you mean: Michelle Jean?" If that is another spelling, I can check the Catholic information again. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I've always pronounced it "MEE-kayl" whether the "yl" is 2 syllables is still up for debate in my mind, but I get in a huff about it. --NDP logo Earl Andrew - talk 07:09, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to write that if anyone ever watches the wonderful documentary show "Ruff Cuts" Michaëlle Jean is on it a lot and she Always introduces herself. And it is most definately 2 (TWO) syllables in length (her first name that is). After the "Mi" the rest is one syllable, unless you want to count the final "le" as a syllable, but it just rolls off the tounge. Listen to her say her OWN name--then discuss. Her show is on CBC NewsWorld. P.S.: Another good documentary show also on NewsWorld is the "Passionate Eye." I have seen some of the best televison in my life on both of those shows. P.P.S: My favourite docu so far this year was: "The Power of Nightmares." Pretty scary stuff. --dbishop 19:25, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I do want to count the finale [ɛl] as a syllable. It's lovely how French names roll off the tongue, isn't it. DoubleBlue (Talk) 19:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Dhbishop, in that when she pronounces her own name, it is deffinately two syllables. --NDP logo Earl Andrew - talk 19:44, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
No she deffinately pronunces it with three sylables on The Passionate Eye. Like it says in the article: mi: - kæ - ɛ l (actually I'm not sure wheather its ɛ or e). - Farquard 00:59, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The exact IPA symbols stand to be corrected but I strongly agree with three syllables. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:58, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Weren't you looking for the French pronunciation? Because [miː·kæ·ɛɫ ʒɛ̃] seems strange in French (especially the last name)...
I would propose [mi·ka·ɛl ʒɑ̃]--Staatenloser 18:24, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Without any answer, I added the French pronunciation. I have no idea where [ʒɛ̃] came from (which do not exist in French), at least prononce [ʒɑ̃]!
Staatenloser 16:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I didn't see this question earlier but you're absolutely correct about [ʒɑ̃] thus I'll trust the changes from [miː] and [kæ] as well. Thanks. DoubleBlue (Talk) 17:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Remarks

I am trying to find remarks from people other thank Mme. Jean, PM Martin and Clarkson. I only found Harper, and no other party is commenting on it, though I think the Bloc should say something. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

NVM, the Bloc said something. I would be surprised that they did not support the nomination. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I saw a bit of Duceppe on the news last night; he was lamenting that a 'champion of democracy' (or some such words) was accepting nomination to a non-democratic post. I'll see if I can dig up the quote. Radagast 12:24, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Ah, it is in the article. Never mind! Radagast 12:35, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I posted a link in the References section so that you can see the comments in full. I know others have commented, but I am not sure if we can add comments leaders in the Haitian community have made. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fourth CBC Governor-General

Is this just a coincidence or is there something more to it? Michelle Jean is the fourth GG in a row to have had some kind of connection to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC). My question is to anyone who can answer it; what significance, if there is one, does this indicate, and above all, what role does the CBC play in Canadian politics? Capt.Nero

Well, since she is not someone who came from the political scene, she might not be as well-versed on Constitutional law. However, since she was working as a journalist with the CBC, she has the chance to be unbiased in her views. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it's also a desire to have someone who is well-spoken and understands how to deal with media and public. Why CBC over another media outlet? I think it's just the biggest television network, has more bilingual employees, and attracts those with higher social goals (i.e., you're not in it for the money if you stick with the CBC over private television). DoubleBlue (Talk) 18:47, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
From today's Globe & Mail, on similarities to Clarkson:Both honed their public personas during many years before CBC cameras; both have an activist bent and a warm personal style; both have an aura of refinement, but no trace of potentially off-putting haughtiness; both are visible minorities and a stark contrast to the succession of dour former politicians who held the post in previous eras. DoubleBlue (Talk) 19:01, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Clarkson is such an institution that, when I read the part about her being a visible minority, I had to go look up her page to see why! I had never even thought about it before. --Westendgirl 20:22, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Templates

Could some of you please watchlist Template:Canada infobox? Anon users have already edited the box twice to list Michaëlle Jean as the current GG even though Adrienne C is still in office until September 27. It's been reverted both times, but I wouldn't put it past people to keep changing it. The more people we have keeping an eye on it, the better. Bearcat 19:55, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I am watching it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:00, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

I don't think this section is very accurate. The PM said her appointment had nothing to do with political motives and the political scientist said Quebecois will not care about who's the GG.[3] It's been over twenty years since we've had a GG from Quebec and most knew it would be a Quebecker this time. How is that controversial? DoubleBlue (Talk) 22:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Some accused Martin are choosing someone from Quebec to gain support from then. Also, some believed that Jean was a token pick, with the emphasis on token. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Just a quick note on my rewording of the Jeanne Sauvé reference: a Fransaskois who moves to Montreal does not become Québécois; she becomes "a Fransaskois living in Montreal". The provincial francophone subgroups are defined by province of birth more than province of adult residence. (See French Canadian for further info.) It's potentially confusing to represent this accurately, but the fact that Sauvé's political career was associated with Quebec doesn't change the fact that she wasn't Québécois (in the same way that Paul Martin is Franco-Ontarian and not Québécois, even though his career has been also associated with Montreal), so I've changed the wording to "from Quebec". Bearcat 00:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I have no problems with it (since, IMHO, you are more knowledgable in this subject than I am). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:04, 9 August 2005 (UTC)


you know that canada is in trouble when it appointing a Qubec separatist to be the ispo facto head of government in canada. it is a sad time for the state of the nation when it comes to this to keep the liberal party in power.

[edit] Tradition

Ok, I found this from the main GG article: "The monarch appoints the Governor General on the advice of the Prime Minister of Canada. From 1867 to 1952, every Governor General was a subject of the United Kingdom and a member of the aristocracy. The last British Governor General was Harold Alexander, 1st Viscount Alexander of Tunis, who served from 1946 to 1952. Since Vincent Massey's appointment in 1952, the position has been held only by Canadians. Moreover, by tradition, the post has been held alternately by English-Canadians and French-Canadians. Beginning in 1967, the Prime Minister has forwarded the Queen a single name when proposing a vice-regal appointment; previously a list of several names had been given to the Queen." Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:16, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Just a thought, is there any precedent for removing a GG after they have been appointed and before their term has completed! HJKeats 01:31, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
GGs have open-ended terms: they serve until they die or until the Queen replaces them with a new GG. The "five-year term" you often hear about is merely a recent tradition. Indefatigable 02:31, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Post-nominals

I added the MA post-nominal, just like what Clarkson has on her page. However, another user added BA to it. It could have been the same person who added HE The Rt. Hon. too. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:16, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it was Michael Drew and from the look of his talk page he has rather a fondness for adding such honorifics. I removed the MA from Clarkson yesterday. I'm in favour of having the important post-nominals but not university degrees. They're already mentioned in the article anyway. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Thats fine with me. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:57, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the post-nominal article should be updated, if the Wiki convention is to not consider educational degrees to be post-nominals. --Westendgirl 23:49, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
If Docotrs can use Ph.D after their name, I think we should include her degrees on here as postnominals. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I really don't think educational degrees should be added, especially BAs, or MAs. I will be getting my BA in eight months, and I don't plan on adding a post-nominal to my name. I think we should just put up whatever is used by the person 'officially'. For example, on the GG's website, Adrienne Clarkson only uses CC, CMM, COM, CD, and we should just stick with that. Eddo
There needs to be some sort of Wiki convention established. Paul Martin has his BA listed (!). Westendgirl 05:56, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I should point out that doctorets and such are usually listed on a persons Order of Canada citation. As for educational postnominals would for example a Doctor use the postnoms "MD" are wouldn't it be appropriate to use that on wikipedia ? Dowew 03:21, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dual citizenship

I moved the trivia that Jean holds dual citizenship from the controversy section to the Appointment section where it mentions all the the other trivia like entire family is of non-Canadian birth. I see an anon recently duplicated the same fact to the biography section, where it also makes sense (though I personally feel it's uninteresting). I'm sure even Jacob Two-Two would think it's redundant and repetitive to say the same thing two times and twice identical info. Where does it best belong? DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Removed the duplicate reference and put it somewhere where you think it is best. We have to mention it, but I do not care where. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I honestly don't have a preference. Each place make some sense to me. DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:52, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Let's see about the others and their input on this mattter. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it's controversial, I've listened to both 580 CFRA here in Ottawa, and CFRB 1010 in Toronto this past weekend, and everyone is taking about it, it's more of an issue than her being an alleged seperatist. -- Spinboy 01:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't there also a problem in the fact that Haitian are not allowed to keep their citizneship if they hold military or politicla office - and in Jean's case she is the head of Canada and the Canadian military ? Dowew 21:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I am sure Haiti will find a way to bestow honoary citizenship to her, since I think Haiti will probably ignore this since this is some good news for them in a very, very long time. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
It's not the Haitian citizenship, but the French republican citizenship. She lost her Haitian citizenship because of Duvaliers. Here the text of the French Civil Code:
Article 23-8 du Code civil (L. n° 73-42 du 9 janv. 1973)
Perd la nationalité française le Français qui, occupant un emploi dans une armée ou un service public étranger ou dans une organisation internationale dont la France ne fait pas partie ou plus généralement leur apportant son concours, n'a pas résigné son emploi ou cessé son concours nonobstant l'injonction qui lui en aura été faite par le Gouvernement.
L'intéressé sera, par décret en Conseil d'État, déclaré avoir perdu la nationalité française si, dans le délai fixé par l'injonction, délai qui ne peut être inférieur à quinze jours et supérieur à deux mois, il n'a pas mis fin à son activité.
Lorsque l'avis du Conseil d'État est défavorable, la mesure prévue à l'alinéa précédent ne peut être prise que par décret en conseil des ministres.
In French we put that in the controversy section. See fr:Michaëlle Jean.--Staatenloser 15:05, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New controversy

I saw someone added a new controversy today, the article about René Boulanger. I added the fact that Boulanger's purpose is to make English Canada angry about Lafond and that they reject the candidature of Michaëlle Jean in order to reinforce separatist movement in Québec. Maybe the Globe and Mail doesn't mention that, bu Boulanger did, in Le Devoir today.
If my English wording is not good enough, I please you to correct my text!--Staatenloser 18:35, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I can look it over and see if the English is right. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Many of the critics are saying Paul Martin was "incompetent" when he chose Jean for GG. I don't think he was, infact, I believe he chose Jean because he knew her husband, Jean Lafond, was a pro-Seperatist figure. If you look at it, what a great choice it must have been for Martin to choose someone with seperatist ties. Along with former Bloc Quebecois member Jean LaPierre, it would seem as if the seperatists have a tight loop around the Liberal Party, and can insure that Quebecois needs will come above most. Win-Win for the seperatists, but also perhaps may insure the Liberals will gain support in Quebec? I maybe completly wrong, of course, but thats just my view on the issue. Anyone agree or disagree? Capt.Nero

Do you have sources from the CBC, Globe or Mail or any major Canadian newspaper stating this fact? While it is not wrong to have an opinion, but in order to include this possbility in the article itself, we need sources. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

No Zscout, my opinion is simply just that, an opinion. I don't have any sources or columnists that would support my point of yet, however, I have listened into political commentary on CH a Hamilton, Ontario based broadcast station, and one of the commentataters mentioned something similar to what I said about Jean LaPierre. Capt.Nero

I am sure that once it gets closer to her investure, we could hear more about it. Though, as mention above, I think her citizen status is coming more into question than this issue is. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

This whole fucking thing is just absurd. So Jacques Rose built them a bookshelf. Big fat hairy whoopdefuckingdoo. We live in a country in which the right to a private ballot is inviolable; no Canadian is ever obliged to reveal how he or she voted in an election or referendum. [******* ******] really needs to **** off and die now. </rant-off> Bearcat, who can POV on a talk page if I want to 06:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Bearcat, the hell are you doing? Do you know that making death threats carry legal consequences?

How do you kick people out of wiki?--Esto 04:08, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

What kind of oxygen do you have to be breathing to read what I wrote and interpret it as a death threat? Stow the attitude, dude. Bearcat 09:16, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


Bearcat, I don't think there is proof to support that these accusations are all accusations being made by the Conservatives. It could be the Conservatives, Quebec seperatists, or a combination of both. I personnally believe both the Cons, and the seperatists are spinning their bullshit, but thats just me. Capt.Nero

[edit] Need for sources

It seems to me to be pretty important to make sure we have sources (actual citations) for all information in the article on the "controversy." I have removed the following pending a cite:

She was seen in a video documentary toasting in a Montreal bar with several hardline separatists "to independence", and suggesting that Quebec should start a revolution to achieve it's goal.

Could the writer of this (or anyone) please provide a citation (newspaper article, name of documentary, etc.) for it? Sunray 17:25, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

On Vigile.net, there is an article from La Presse : La pression monte d'un cran sur la nouvelle gouverneure générale (August 17th), which states what she said in the movie/book:
"l'indépendance, ça ne se donne pas, ça se prend"
Independance, it can't be given, it must be taken. Lafond also said:
"Alors, un Québec souverain? Un Québec indépendant? Oui, et j'applaudis des deux mains et je promets d'être de tous les défilés de toutes les Saint-Jean"
So, an independent Québec? Yes, and I applaud, and I swear to be at every procession of every St. John/St-Jean.
Note that when people was toasting to independence, if I'm not wring, Michaëlle Jean added "aux indépendances", to independences, the plural form. Interesting.--Staatenloser 15:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your good work in tracking down a source. I think it is interesting information that should be in the article to give a full picture, so will put it back. Sunray 19:43, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Representation

This is somewhat interesting. I don't know if it deserves a place in the article. But Jean is connected or represents more minorities and groups than any past Governors General (in no specific order):

  1. The Monarchy
  2. Quebecers
  3. Blacks
  4. Immigrants
  5. Refugees
  6. Women
  7. Mothers
  8. Baby-boomers
  9. Non-Europeans
  10. Public Broadcasters
  11. Filmmakers
  12. Young people
  13. Carribean/Haitian People
  14. The people
  15. The CBC
  16. Adoptive parents
  17. Bilinguals

Can you think of more? Colipon+(T) 03:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Number one, she represents Queen Elizabeth II. The rest is all POV. -- Spinboy 20:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Governor General of Canada box

I notice that the right hand box with her picture, personal and career details and Rank etc. nowhere states that it deals with the Governor General of Canada. This could be confusing for people who come to one of the Governors General for some other reason (author John Buchan for example) and wonder what the box is there for and what Rank is being denoted. Dabbler 19:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] De facto/ de jure

Unless there is a subtlety of Canadian constitutional law, which I have failed to understand, Jean is the DE JURE and NOT the DE FACTO head of state. In other words, although she is the head of state by law (jure), she does not actually exercise the power in fact (facto), which is done by the cabinet, or more specifically the Prime Minister.

The Queen is the de jure head of state, and because the governor general performs nearly all the Queen's duties, she is the de facto head of state. There are many examples around the world of heads of state without political power. The office with political power (in Canada's case, the prime minister) is the head of government. Indefatigable 17:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] name

Could someone please add the correct pronunciation of her name? I have heard her say it more like "Michael John" ... - Abscissa 01:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] repetitive

The current article is repetitive and redundant in several places and often not well-organized. Would someone knowledgeable of the topic please "clean it up" a little? TysK 05:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Skin colour

Is it really necessary to make references to Jean's skin colour? I'd think that stating she is the first Governor General of African-Caribbean heritage would make it redundant to add vague, outdated and mildly insensitive labels like "non-white" and "person of colour." --gbambino 19:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"Person of colour" is not vague, outdated or insensitive; it's the legitimate and correct term which the groups covered by it use for themselves when they need to call attention to skin colour as a personal characteristic. It's the term those groups have specifically asked to be used in place of constructions like "non-white". And as for your edit summary, Jean is the second person of colour to hold the office, not the first — Adrienne Clarkson was the first. Bearcat 05:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of any visible minority group calling themselves "persons of colour". Did those of African descent not go to great lengths to cease being called "coloured people"? And if, as individuals, we're all people of varying colours, what range of colours does one have to fall into to be defined as one colour or another? If Adrienne Clarkson is do be defined as a "person of colour," what exact colour is she? Weren't Michener, Sauve, LeBlanc, etc., people with a colour?

This is why it's vague. The only way to refer to Jean's skin colour is to say she's "the first Governor General with a slight mocha brown skin tone." But, what's the point of that? --gbambino 15:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The difference between "coloured people" and "people of colour" is that non-white groups chose the latter for themselves, as a construction which puts their person-ness first and then emphasizes that they're not white, as opposed to the older form which puts their colour before their humanity. And if you've never heard of a non-white person or a social/political/cultural group for non-white people use "person/people/women/lesbians/etc. of colour" to describe themselves or their group, you obviously don't get out much — they've been using that term for at least fifteen years now; I don't believe for a second that anybody alive in 2006 has never heard it before. Here are a few examples: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. That's just a small sample; there are countless others: "person of colour" gets 37,000 Google hits, while the American spelling without the u gets almost 400,000; "people of colour" gets 258,000 hits and without the u it jumps to over 9 million. Bearcat 17:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I get out; quite a bit, thanks. But, perhaps because silly things like labels don't play a huge part in my life, I haven't heard of anyone referring to themselves as a "person of colour." Regardless of the order ("people of colour" vs. "coloured people") it still uses "white" people as a reference point against which to judge yourself.

Anyway, my personal feelings on the matter are neither here nor there in terms of this article. However, two questions remain: 1) if it's already stated that Jean is of African-Caribbean heritage, why is it necessary to say she's a "person of colour", and 2) what colour is Adrienne Clarkson? To me, her skin looks the same colour as mine. --gbambino 18:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

  1. Adrienne Clarkson is Asian.
  2. Again, the point remains: "people of colour" is a term that the groups so described have chosen for themselves, a term they use for themselves, and a term that they have specifically asked to be used when it is necessary (as it sometimes is, in a society where racial categorization is still an unavoidable reality at times) to call attention to skin colour as a characteristic. And it is relevant to note that Jean is the second person of colour to hold the position. Using whiteness as the reference point isn't the issue; the reality is that we live in a world where skin colour does still play a role in the way people interact with society and vice versa. The issue is who's drawing the referents, which brings us right back to the fact that "people of colour" is a term the groups chose for themselves and frequently use for themselves. If you don't see how that's different from an imposed label like "coloured people", then I really don't know what to say to you.
  3. If you've honestly never heard a black, Asian or aboriginal person describe themselves as a "person of colour", then we're at an unresolvable roadblock, because in the reality I live in, it's an everyday usage that lost its novelty value sometime around 1993. Maybe I'm just more finely attuned to issues of political and social language usage than you are, I don't know. But when anti-racist conferences describe their own target market as "people of color", when social and cultural and political groups targeted especially to black and Asian communities describe themselves as "a group for people of colour" (and sometimes even use "of colour" in their names), when people like Sunera Thobani, Urvashi Vaid, bell hooks, Nalo Hopkinson and Margaret Cho describe themselves as "people of colour", when there are Wikipedia editors (User:Xoloz, frex) who describe themselves as "people of colour" right on their Wikipedia userpages, let's just say I'm almost infinitely more inclined to trust their judgement in the matter than yours. Bearcat 21:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears to come down to a personal preference - some describe themselves in such a manner; others don't. It seems disingenuous, and unnecessary (to me, anyway) to apply the label to Mme. Jean given that it's already said that she's of African-Caribbean heritage, and we don't know whether she considers herself a "person of colour" or not.

By the way, "Asian" isn't a colour. You stated Clarkson was a "person of colour" - what colour is she? --gbambino 21:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

What other kind of answer do you imagine possible? I suppose one could get into that old practice of calling Asian people "yellow", but that would be racist and inappropriate. Bearcat 21:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, calling Asian people "persons of colour" implies they are actually a colour other than white, which for them must be yellow - and that is indeed racist and inappropriate. This is why the whole thing is ridiculous - somehow "persons of colour" actually means people of any racial strain other than caucasian, but many people who aren't caucasian are the same colour as caucasians anyway!

Jean is the first person of African-Caribbean heritage to serve as Governor General, the third woman, and the second immigrant. What more needs to be said? Everything else is subjective. --gbambino 22:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

somehow "persons of colour" actually means people of any racial strain other than caucasian. "Somehow"? What part of "BY THEIR OWN CHOICE OF APPROPRIATE TERMINOLOGIES" are you having trouble understanding? Bearcat 22:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because some people have chosen it doesn't make it logical; nor does it really make it appropriate to anyone but themselves. --gbambino 22:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

People of colour themselves get to decide whether or not "people of colour" is logical and appropriate terminology, not you. Bearcat 22:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I have a free will. I can say for myself what is logical and what is not. Others have the same, and can do the same. But obviously not everyone agrees. Hence, the label "person of colour" is subjective, which has been my point all along. --gbambino 22:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Minority groups have an exclusive right to decide what are and are not appropriate terms to use in reference to them. If Asian communities consider themselves to be "people of colour", which they do, then that's the final word whether you find it logical or not. Bearcat 23:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
You talk as though every community, group, club, knitting circle, football pool, what have you, made up of people of Asian descent call themselves "people of colour." While some certainly might, not all do. It's a label some people use, and some people do not. --gbambino 02:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
The bottom line is what their community does or doesn't consider to be appropriate and permitted labels for itself, not what one specific individual does or doesn't use. Bearcat 03:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Bearcat. Whether or not we like it, or find it logical, people do have the right to call themselves what they will. The long-standing convention in the media, as in encyclopedias, is to respect that. Sunray 00:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Certainly. But, what does Michaelle Jean call herself? --gbambino 02:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
What she calls herself is irrelevant. What a person's ethnocultural community taken as a whole considers to be the appropriate or inappropriate terminologies for their own group is the final word in the matter. If a community defines itself as "people of colour", an individual person belonging to that community does not have some additional right to dictate that she can't be called the same thing. She can call herself whatever she wants — but it's the black community in general that gets to decide whether "person of colour" is a valid terminology for black people or not. People may have personal preferences, but nobody within the black community, not even Michaëlle Jean, gets any kind of special right to dictate that only some of the terminologies accepted by her community can be used specifically in reference to her. Bearcat 03:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
The black community usually refers to those incuded within it as Afro-Canadians, African-Canadians, African-American, or simply blacks. Looking for "black community" with "persons of colour" I got a whole of 81 hits. With "people of colour": 1,400 hits. "African Canadian" with "people of colour": 386. "African American" with "people of colour": 9,100. "African American" and "black", on the other hand: 19,100,000. "African Canadian" and "black": 57,800 "African-Canadian" alone: 106,000. "African American": 41,500,000. Altering the spelling of colour actually brings up less results. So, it seems the vast majority of those in the black community deem themselves African Canadian or African American, and do not label themselves further as "persons of colour."
Just out of interest, "Michaelle Jean" and "person of colour" brings up 34 hits - many duplicates. "Adrienne Clarkson" and "person of colour": 30.
So, Jean is the first Governor General of African-Caribbean heritage, or the first African-Canadian, if you like. But "person of colour" remains a subjective label that isn't, despite what you assert, accepted or employed by the ethno-cultural black community as a whole, or even, it seems, a majority. --gbambino 15:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You guys need to read history

Only the Second immigrant to be governor general? HAHAHAH. Please. Most of the Governors general have been born outside of Canada CJ DUB 16:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

That didn't make them immigrants. The Governors General from the UK were subjects of the Crown, just like every Canadian was at the time. Canada's first citizenship laws were passed in 1947, while our last British Governor General was in office. After him, the appointments were all Canadian. You, guy, need to read history, and learn how to spell along the way. --gbambino 16:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Ms. Clarkson was also a British subject when she came to this country. Why is she considered an immigrant? Jonathan David Makepeace 22:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I suppose she was a British suhject - that's very interesting. It's certain that she was a refugee, but maybe you're right that she actually wasn't an immigrant. Though, there is a difference between her and previous Governors General: She came with her family and stayed, whereas Governors General prior to 1952 came to Canada only for as long as their post required, and then returned to the UK. --gbambino 23:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Whatever, claiming the current GC as the "second immigrant" or especially "second foreign-born" is highly misleading. How about "second foreign born since 19XX"?? CJ DUB 17:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The point about her being the second "foreign born" is followed by the correct clarification that this continunes to break a tradition set by Vincent Massey's appointment in 1952.
The point about her being the "second immigrant" is only potentially misleading in that she may actually be the first immigrant Governor General.
What you're trying to assert - that the Governors General prior to 1952 were immigrants - is not only misleading, but factually inaccurate. --gbambino 19:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It's possible to be both factually accurate and misleading. Saying she's the second immigrant is clearly misleading, even if it's true. It's misleading, because it will lead ordinary people to think only two GCs were born outside of Canada. We should write this article for those not familiar with the topic already. --Rob 20:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but saying, or even implying, that the Governors General of Canada before 1952 were immigrants is nothing other than incorrect. --gbambino 20:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Further to my point above, an immigrant is defined as:
Main Entry: im·mi·grant
Pronunciation: 'i-m&-gr&nt
Function: noun
one that immigrates : as a : a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence b : a plant or animal that becomes established in an area where it was previously unknown
So, both Clarkson and Jean are immigrants. Byond the issue of nationality, as the British Governors General all returned to the UK at the end of their time as GG they're not considered immigrants.
It's already mentioned that Clarkson's and Jean's appointments have broken the tradition of creating Canadian-born individuals as Governor General, in place since the appointment of Massey; so what else can be said to make it more clear? --gbambino 20:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be written for people who do not fully understand the subject. The wording is technically accurate, but more confusing than helpful. --C civiero 19:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vacation

"On January 4, 2007, according to articles in the Globe and Mail and National Post, Michaelle Jean failed to preside over a Cabinet shuffle of the Conservative government. It was later reported in the January 5, 2007 edition of the "Journal de Montreal" that she was on vacation and that she was replaced at the ceremony by Supreme Court Justice Michel Bastrache. Additionally, despite having returned on December 11, 2006, from her 3-week state visit to various African nations, visits to the Governor General's official website indicate that Madame Jean has not undertaken any sort of official activity in keeping with her role as the Queen's representative since December 15, 2006 when she presided over an Order of Canada Ceremony."

Is the above really notable? Administrators routinely perform the tasks of the Governor General when he or she is not in the country. So, really, all the text is saying is that Jean went on vacation and someone filled in for her at the swearing in of a couple of new cabinet members. It seems the anon. who wants to insert this is trying to insinuate that Jean is shirking her duties, and create scandal where there is none. --G2bambino 21:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
A search of the Globe and Mail shows there hasn't been an article mentioning Jean since Dec. 15th. This clearly is not a scandal. --G2bambino 23:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
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