Talk:Metrolink (Southern California)

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When I found this page, it said that Metrolink used both light and heavy rail vehicles. I believe that whoever wrote this sentence thinking of the LA MTA's Metrorail system. Metrolink is, in my understanding, strictly a commuter rail enterpise. Please let me know if I am wrong.

-You are right. When I wrote the page I was thinking of the MTAs light rail system and associated that with Metrolink for some reason. Anyway, I stand corrected. Thanks. :) RockBandit 03:21, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Page move 2 Ridership numbers 3 Burlington train accident 4 Burbank Airport service 5 Revisions made and to be made 6 Fleet section 7 General Updates

[edit] Page move

I plan to move this to Metrolink (Southern California). It would probably be best for Manchester Metrolink and St. Louis Metrolink to move to parenthetical-style pages too, since Metrolink appears to be their offcial names too. Mackerm 21:20, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• Sounds good to me! Perhaps a Metrolink disambiguation page linking to all three pages would be in order? --Jfruh 22:48, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ridership numbers

I take issue with the contention that Metrolink does not have a very large ridership compared with other systems. Its passengers-per-day numbers are depressed because it only has ~8 hours of service per day, compared with the 18-20 hour service offered by Chicago's Metra or the various New York commuter railroads.--Slightlyslack 06:17, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Most commuter rail systems have 75% or so of their ridership in peak times, with trains running half empty off-peak, so I don't think your point holds. Metrolink has 10 million trips per year, Long Island Railroad 96 million, Metro North 72 million, Metra 68 million. In England, there are 10 commuter rail franchises serving London, with riderships ranging from 14 million to 160 million. Bombay's commuter rail system carries something around 2 billion a year, or 6 million per day!

Exile 12:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burlington train accident

I added a paragraph involving that incident. Please clean it up and verify as needed becuase what I know about it is from watching and remembering the news way back when it happened. Hell, I don't even know if it was Burlington...as I remember it, that's a coat factory, but it sounds similar to the actual train company that smashed into the Metrolink train. Hbdragon88 03:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Burbank Airport service

This page does not mention Metrolink's Burbank Airport service. It is not exactly a single line, but a combination of three lines (one of which has no coverage). Burbank Airport service has dedicated trains on the #9XX line as well as shared trains on the Antelope Valley (#2XX) and Ventura County (#1XX) lines. The Antelope Valley trains connect to the Burbank Airport station by bus, but the others are direct trips from L.A. Union Station (with the exception of a few non-peak trips on the early and late ends of the #9XX schedule that are also bus connections). Mike Dillon 02:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revisions made and to be made

This article has a lot of information, but I felt that there were some pressing issues that needed attention:

1. The huge overview section needed to be divided into the traditional subsections, and so I went ahead and did this (along with some rearranging of sentences). 2. The lengthy comparison with express bus lines was just a little more than necessary. It looks like this is supposed to be a point-counterpoint article when it should just be an encyclopedia entry. I removed some of this, but I'm sure there's more that can be revised. 3. The information about the future development is quite interesting, but there's no reference given (except about the Buena Park Station). Can someone please find a reference for the future extensions? Otherwise this will have to be removed, as it would look bad for Metrolink's site to not have any mention of all this information in their Wikipedia entry.

--SameerKhan 10:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Good work. The "Rolling stock" and "Fleet" sections could probably stand to be merged. Mike Dillon 16:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that express buses should not be included. Los Angeles has had a robust express bus system for some time. One of the reasons Metrolink ridership is so low (compared to other commuter rail systems) has to do with the fare structure, as well as other factors such as number of trains operated, travel time and station location (Union Station at the edge of downtown, vs. express buses distributing people to their final destination). The paragraph is designed to expand on the reasons why people avoid Metrolink and instead choose express buses or driving/carpooling. Calwatch 19:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Unless there is a source for this information, it is original research and should not be included in the article. Mike Dillon 02:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fleet section

Hope everyone likes the changes made to the fleet section, I tried to merge the rolling stock section as best as possible. I think the tables make the whole thing a little more readable, but I don't have much experence making tables so if someone is willing to clean them up it would be appriciated. RickyCourtney 02:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. I've changed the tables to wiki table syntax and added class="wikitable". Mike Dillon 04:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I noticed couple attempts to reformat this section. One of them put a line break in the middle of a sentence, which I don't think works very well because it only improves the layout for a specific font/browser size. I attempted two versions:

1. Setting the "Notes" column width to 30%: link
2. Removing the "Notes" column and using the {{fn}} and {{fnb}} templates to create manual footnotes: link

I left it in the fn/fnb format. If people prefer the 30% "Notes" column, I can revert to that or the earlier version without an explicit column size. Mike Dillon 04:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I tried using the line breaks in an attempt to get the columns to not be so wide. But in my opinion... the set column width looks better. Maybe we should set all the columns width so that its standard across all of the fleet tables. These little footnotes are tough to see and they look cluttered. RickyCourtney 19:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General Updates

Made a number of statistical updates to the page. I hope not too much for my first time. I have a problem with the Fares section in that the comparison of fares between Metrolink and commuter buses is not relevant. Commuter buses are not what Metrolink competes against. The great majority of Metrolink riders were drive-alone commuters, not former bus riders or other transit mode users. Metrolink is a premium service with discretionary users. The second it no longer works for them, they are right back in their cars. The real price comparison (if even that is relevant since most Metrolink riders are making a lifestyle choice, not a dollars and cents choice) is to compare train fares to gasoline costs and other costs to operate a vehicle on the same commute. Under those conditions, Metrolink is actually cheaper. By the way, Metrolink's subsidy per mile is actually less than that of most bus operators and Metrolink riders take much longer trips. Scrra 21:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, see that reference about "controversial fare restructuring". You have to understand that it was brought out at public comment as a concern, and that is notable since Metrolink has virtually no public comment (since the people riding are working during the day and can't attend board meetings). I agree that Metrolink is a premium service, subsidized by employers (a majority of Metrolink riders get a subsidy from their employers, and many get a subsidy from the city they live in as well). But it is notable that several bus routes (Foothill Transit 699, Omnitrans 90, El Monte Busway service, AVTA 785, various LADOT routes) compete directly with Metrolink, even going as far as to pick up at or within a few blocks of a Metrolink station.

AVTA is notable because of the following statement in their Long Range Plan [1]:

When the Palmdale Metrolink Station opens, access to train and bus service in the Antelope Valley will be equivalent, but AVTA has many more stops in Downtown Los Angeles, making it more likely for an AVTA commuter to have a one-seat ride to work without the need to transfer. Metrolink trains operate all day and on Saturday, while AVTA service is more frequent during peak periods. Travel time is slightly less on Metrolink, but this does not include any time transferring to other modes to reach the final destination. Usually, travel time via train is more consistent and reliable than via bus because the train has its own right of way. Finally, there is a significant cost difference between Metrolink and AVTA, with Metrolink monthly passes currently priced 38 percent higher than AVTA, and rising to 44 percent higher after July 1, 2004.

Incidentally, the AVTA Long Range Plan qualifies under WP:RS since it is a primary source document from a government agency, and as such is relevant criticism. Any removal will result in revertion. Calwatch 08:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

In response to several of your points:

While concerns about higher fares were obviously raised at Metrolink's public meetings (which were always held in the evenings in several locations in the five-county service area until attendance dwindled to literally 0) they were consistently raised by train riders, not commuter bus riders. Public comment is overwhelmingly made eletronically these days, not in the traditional public meeting setting, and this type of comment becomes part of the formal public record just like in-person testimony at a public hearing. Summaries of public comment have been provided to the Metrolink governing board at each meeting where staff has recommended that an adjustment in fares be made.

It is not correct that a "...majority of Metrolink riders get a subsidy from their employers..." and that "...many get a subsidy from the city they live in as well". According to Metrolink's "2006 Onboard Survey", only 42% of Metrolink's full-time employed riders receive some type of employer subsidy. The number receiving a city subsidy is much smaller. Metrolink is only aware of two cities that provide a subsidy to Metrolink riders and in each case it is less than $30 monthly. The larger contribution towards the commuter train service's operation comes from the same source that subsidizes other public bus and rail services - the local or county transportation agency or commission. In Metrolink's 2006-2007 budget, subsidy per passenger mile is approximately $.15 which I understand compares very favorably to that of other transit systems and more accurately captures the difference between long and short trips.

The AVTA Long Range Plan excerpt does reveal a key reason why a commuter may choose their service over Metrolink - more convenient downtown drop-off location than what the Red Line or other Union Station connections can offer. In addition, the Plan also reveals what AVTA riders who have used Metrolink in the past but haven't continued and what AVTA riders who have never tried it think about the service. For the first group, over 93% of the respondents mentioned something besides the cost of the train as what they disliked about Metrolink. The top answer (with almost 1/3 of the responses) was "nothing" - they actually had no complaints. The second group, AVTA riders that had never tried Metrolink, had only 3.9% of the respondents respond that cost was the reason they had never used the train. Their top response was "it does not go where I need to go" with 37.5% of the responses followed by 28.1% who responded "I prefer my car".

The AVTA Long Range Plan also notes that making the commuter bus services pay for themselves or come close to it is a priority. It estimates that commuter bus fares would have to increase from 24% to 40% to achieve that goal which would put them essentially on par with Metrolink fares.

While the comparison of commuter bus services and commuter train services on a price or subsidy per rider basis can create the sense of direct competition for riders, it is not borne out by those that actually decide to use one service or another. A commuter bus rider takes the bus for reasons other than cost when compared to the train. A commuter train rider takes the train and not the bus because it works for them better than taking their car. A commuter bus is not an option they consider for many reasons. According to the same AVTA Long Range Plan, "...commuter services do not duplicate Metrolink, because they offer different levels of service and serve different portions of the commute market." Scrra 22:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, discussion in a talk page is about the article, not about the points made. The fact that fewer and fewer people show up to public hearings doesn't mean much, if Metrolink shows no interest in listening to their customers. The fact that two people showed up during the day to the formal public hearing to complain about the distance based fare restructuring shows something about the increase. While you correctly note that AVTA fares short by about 20% (80% farebox recovery, which as you correctly note would result in an 25% fare increase), Metrolink's farebox recovery, at 42% according to the National Transit Database [2], would require Metrolink fares to more than double, which would obviously scare more people off at the train. Yet, on a cost per mile basis, Metrolink charges higher fares than other commuter rail agencies. According to the NTD again, Metrolink's fare per mile (fares/passenger miles) is 13.3 cents, compared to 10.8 cents on Caltrain, 9.0 cents for ACE Train, 9.6 cents for Sounder, 14.4 cents for NCTD, and 6.7 cents for Trinity Railway Express. The New York commuter rail agencies charge in the 20 cent per mile range, but Metrolink is on the high side for commuter rail west of the Mississippi (which incidentally makes this discussion on-topic as it justified the claim that "Metrolink fares are high compared to its peers", using data from the NTD, a publication of the Federal Transit Administration). As the NTD data notes, Metrolink's farebox is higher than any of the other agencies, and part of the reason is the conflicted nature of the board, as stated in the article. Counties have a limited dedicated pot for commuter rail, and any additional funds that go into Metrolink are taken away from roads or bus service in their communities.

You also need to check your facts about city subsidies, as a simple Google search found that Walnut, La Verne, West Covina, Azusa, Diamond Bar, and Pomona all offer Metrolink subsidies. As far as employer subsidies, I am going by the only Web-available study, conducted in 2004 [3], which notes "The percentage of riders that receive a Metrolink fare subsidy from their employers has dropped to 50% from 57% in 2002." It may have kept dropping, but the 2006 study is not available on the Internet.

As far as I'm concerned, all the criticisms in the article have been documented with data from NTD and other planning documents. Any removal of the criticism will result in reversion. Calwatch 08:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)