Talk:Meta-ethics
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[edit] Rationalism
The article could do with mentioning the rationalism of the kind that Kant/Nagel/Smith all argue for. Any objections? There are also some other changes I'd suggest (e.g constructivism, a bit more on the normative vs. meta ethics debate, and perhaps pointing out that meta-ethics can perhaps be well described by splitting it into 3 sub-sections: psychology (moral motivation), ontology (what are moral facts?) and epistemology): any thoughts?
What exactly is the rationalist tradition in relation to meta-ethics? Please explain a little more (I like the idea, but would like to know what you propose before you do it). Batmanand 15:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: One should avoid inserting miscellaneous extra views into the "meta-ethical theories" section of the article. As I originally wrote it, there was a logic to the division: Naturalism, intuitionism, subjectivism, error theory, and non-cognitivism are the five main categories of theories that are recognized in the field; and logically, any theory (that addresses the same questions) *must* fall into one of those categories (so things like "constructivism" and "rationalism" are not separate categories). This is because those five alternatives arise from asking:
1. Are there objective values? If yes, then 2. Are they reducible?; 3. Do we know about them a priori or empirically?
If no to #1, then 2. Do moral statements *assert that* there are objective values? If no to #2, then 3. Do they assert propositions at all? --owl232 15:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
What about fictionalism? Amcfreely 06:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cleaning up
The addition of the "in Philosophy" qualification is the start of my practical contributions to resolving the mess in the Ethics article. This article (meta-ethics) is excellent IMO, and is about Philosophy. The existing Ethics article says it's about Philosophy, but much of it is not. It's a bit of a mess, and possibly the Ethics article should be replaced by a disambiguation page. --Andrewa 21:20, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)
[edit] History/change
I believe it can be proven as fact, not opinion, that in certain academic philosophy circles, meta-ethical investigations or allied fields are increasingly far more privileged than traditional normative ethics. --Dpr 03:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Then do so. --Maru 02:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
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- I will attempt to at my earliest opportunity. Thanks ~Dpr 04:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
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- That was true in the mid-twentieth century, but applied ethics has become prominent, largely prompted by the work of Singer. After his work on such things as famine relief and animal rights, there has been quite a lot of work in applied ethics. --owl232 15:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
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- It's true, Dpr's statement is outdated.
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[edit] PoV?
- "It is seen by many as a "default" (though not necessarily correct) view, as it is seemingly obvious that when one says "Murder is wrong" they are saying that the act of murder, or some consequence of it, is objectively wrong. However, many meta-ethicists (for example A.J. Ayer, C. L. Stevenson and R. M. Hare) have argued that this is incorrect [...]"
If not PoV, this is certainly an odd way of phrasing things. First saying that it is seemingly obvious to consider a moral utterance an utterance of matter of facts, and then claim that some people do argue against this "seemingly obvious" theory. Adding the word seemingly might seem like it is all taken care of, but it still sounds wrong in my ears. Is it really even seemingly obvious? Why not at least add "they argue that" before saying this?
- Hello, anonymous contributer. Firstly, you might want to sign up for an account. It is quick, easy and safe, and means we are not talking blindly. Secondly, thank you for posting on the talk page before making an edit; a practice not enough Wikipedians do. To your point: it was my edit that you object to. I agree that it is a clumsy way of saying what I am trying to say. Basically, I am saying (roughly): cognitivism is the common-sense view. It is common-sense because what it says "sounds right" when you first hear it. However, there are other views, and one needs to appreciate the nuances of all of them to come to a proper decision. If you do not like it, would you like to sugest a better wording, and I will gladly re-edit and re-re-edit until we come to an agreement. Happy editting! --Batmanand 23:37, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Applied Ethics
The introduction situates Meta-ethics as one of two areas of thought within ethics. My understanding was that a more accurate division could be made seperating meta-ethics, normative ethics and applied ethics. The latter being a fairly large field in and of itself such a distinction would make sense. If this scheme is in some way outdated or problematic let me know. If I'm right change it or tell me that I'm right and I will. --Jsn4 02:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with you. --Logic2go
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- I added an edit changing the 3 fields to meta-ethics, applied ethics, and *ethical theory*, because "normative ethics" should be considered to include the last two. (Just think about etymology.)--owl232 15:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Structure of meta-ethical theories
Hope no one is upset by my edit changing the overall structure of meta-ethical theories. However, the way I have it now really is more correct (see my comment under "Rationalism"). The earlier version portrays the main division in meta-ethics as "non-cognitivism vs. everybody else", but that isn't the way it's usually seen. Subjectivists, for instance, are (rightly) considered closer to emotivists than they are to intuitionists. (In case anyone cares, I'm Mike Huemer, author of the first version of this after Larry Sanger's lecture notes.) --owl232 15:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not upset about the change in the structure. In the process, though, value pluralism disappeared. I've restored it. --Christofurio 20:12, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
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- The reason I cut that was that I think of pluralism and monism as normative ethical theses, rather than metaethical. For instance, utilitarianism is a monistic (normative) ethical theory. W.D. Ross' theory of prima facie duties is a pluralistic (normative) ethical theory.
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- There is a certain ambiguity about the notion of pluralism, but I suggest we keep the graf I have written about it here. The statement, "there is only one true good" is meta-ethical rather than ethical, in that it wouldn't commit its believer to identifying that good as wisdom, as perfection, or as happiness or anything else. Choosing among such goals would require the monist to take a normative position. --Christofurio 15:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
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What about the meta-ethical theory that ethics are grounded in our biology? That ethics come about because we are society-froming animals? That something that is "wrong" for a human would not nessesarily be wrong for a (sentient) tiger or ant?
- That is more of a normative ethical stance, trying to determine how to be moral, as opposed to a meta-ethical (what morality actually means) position. Batmanand 09:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Citations
Why are there no citations in this article? I thought we are supposed to refer our edits to verifiable sources?
[edit] Justification
I was under the impression a primary concern of meta-ethics was to ask the question, "Are the moral value judgments we accept justified, and if so, on what grounds?" I would like to add this in the section entitled "meta ethical questions". Any thoughts? I took this out of a Frakena Ethics text. Somaticvibe 21:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- That question sounds like the essence of first-order ethics to me. What's meta about it? Could you quote a bit from the text you refer to, so the rest of us can get a sense of what you have in mind? --Christofurio 04:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
"As usually concieved, meta-ethics asks the following questions. 1) What is the meaning or definition of ethical terms or concepts like 'right', 'wrong'...2) How are moral uses of such terms to be distinguished from non moral ones...3) What is the analysis or meaning of related terms or concepts like 'action', 'conscience', 'free will', 'motive'...4) Can ethical and value judgments be proved, justified, or shown valid? If so, how, and in what sense? Or, what is the logic or moral reasoning and of reasoning about value?...Of these 4) is primary. What we mainly want to know is whether the moral and value judgments we accept are justified or not; and if so, on what grounds...Apart from conceptual understanding...we only need to be concerned about the meaning or nature of ethical and value judgments only if this helps us to understand whether and how they may be justified, only if it helps us to know which of them are acceptable or valid." (96, Frakena, Ethics 2nd ed.) This is taken from a chapter, Meaning and Justification, in a more basic ethical text; it might not be extensive enough to be of value to this article. Let me know if this helps clarify what I am proposing. Somaticvibe 21:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Basically I would like to add something along the lines of; "Are there objective or absolute values, and if so how do we logically justify them?" Somaticvibe 21:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
