Talk:Mesoamerican ballgame

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Contents 1 How common are ballcourts? 2 Non-cultural details scarce 3 poc-ta-tok 4 Great writing here 5 Merge with Ulama game article? 6 Rules, people, rules!!!! 7 Another article to merge to here 8 considerable overlap with Maya Hero Twins entry 9 Chichen Itza - court size 10 Grammar

[edit] How common are ballcourts?

My earlier text based on my observations, reading, and research was: "Every Pre-Columbian ruin of any size in the area contains at least one ballcourt, often several."

Anon editor (from 66.245.27.203) removed that and added the text: "but most prehispanic Mesoamerican communities had none at all."

I've removed both statements from the article. What is your source on that, 66.245.27.203? Can you give examples of mapped and explored sites with no ballcourts? Or does "communities" include hamlets and villages with no permanent structures? Explanation and clarification welcome. Wondering, -- Infrogmation 18:18, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You must distinguish not only the site but the period of occupation. Ball courts seem to have been special civic-ceremonial architecture, and while sometimes they were built in very small communities--say 10 houses or less--others may have had hundreds of homes and no ball court--this is true for every period from Early Formative to Late Postclassic. Indeed, ball courts seem to have been an earlier phenomenon in southern Mesoamerica than in, for example, the Basin of Mexico. Remember, too, that the presence of a ball court implies at least a trading link with the lowlands, as the trees that supplied the rubber for the balls do not grow in the highlands. There are lots of misconceptions about ball courts; one is that all/most Mesoamerican communities built and used them. Specifically, as to mapped and explored sites with no ball courts: look at all major regional survey reports for the Basin of Mexico, Puebla, and Valley of Oaxaca. Many have been published by the University of Michigan and Penn State Univ (and other sources); authors include William Sanders, Jeffrey Parsons, Richard Blanton, and Stephen Kowalewski. I've been on over a thousand sites in the Mixteca Alta and Valley of Oaxaca, and almost all lacked ball courts.--signed, fellow Mesoamerican scholar

Okay. I have to admit I was mostly thinking of Maya sites; in Oaxaca and Central Mexico I'm mostly just familiar with the larger more famous sites. Can we be more specific, perhaps starting with something like that ball courts are common in Peten sites but rare in Oaxaca (or whatever the cases may be)? Cheers, -- Infrogmation 09:32, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Non-cultural details scarce

What's the aim? How do people actually play? 119 06:16, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I came here looking for the rules of the games as well. MMad 12:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, all that is known about the pre-Columbian ritual/game can only be inferred from the archaeological record and interpretation of imagery- there are no inscriptions or texts from that era (that can be read) which explain or describe the rules, or even (directly) the purpose.--cjllw | TALK 22:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] poc-ta-tok

I´m writing about the same subject at the german wikipedia [1]. I´m not an expert. Actually, I only have done some google research. My problem is, that I can´t confirm "poc-ta-tok". In this [2] Vocabulary book it ist called "pitzal" for instance.

The term "ulama", another problem, is used in the text in a way that goes around the problem. Maybe that is clever. Because, I guess the word has nothing to do with ballgame, but with rubber. I will write ( hope no one will erase that) that it is the Aztek word for rubber and the people who grow it at ~1500. So, there is no olmec-connection, in my view. That is not from me ( it´s internet), but it explains a lot. Yours, Zahnstein --62.227.72.108 08:00, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Great writing here

sorry for the off-topic, but I have to say this- I love the transition in 'Versions of the game' from paragraph 4 (game was extremely violent, graphic descriptions of injuries, skull of losers makes new ball, "stories of the ritual ballgames between the Maya Hero Twins and the demonic Lords of Xibalba") and paragraph 5 (And it's fun for the kids!).

I just moved out the demonic part here in refactoring but I think that the transition still stands. --Homunq 17:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Ulama game article?

I would agree with the merge, under the name of Mesoamerican ballgame. Madman 20:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rules, people, rules!!!!

Ok, great. We have the origin, the history which was all very interesting. But, I mean, we need the rules and the gameplay.

You'll have to invent them yourself (only if you do invent them don't put it in the article). Nobody knows the rules.Maunus 16:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another article to merge to here

I think the new article Ceremonial Ball Court should be merged and redirected to here. -- Infrogmation 00:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the merge proposal, although perhaps at some point there'd be justification for having separate articles on the ballcourt structures and the ballcourt game/rituals. The new article also only covers aspects relating to the Maya, whereas ballcourts are one of the common pan-Mesoamerican defining aspects.--cjllw | TALK 04:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] considerable overlap with Maya Hero Twins entry

Retelling the Popol Vuh story, with a lot of unnecessary detail, unfocuses your own story. Retal 00:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chichen Itza - court size

Please correct! There are two different sizes for the chichen itza ball court given in the court section!

Patrick —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.18.182.74 (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Grammar

This article could use a little brush up language-wise —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.52.45.238 (talk) 14:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC).