Talk:Mensa International

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mensa International article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] Copyright violation?

http://www.mensa.org/info.html This page looks like copy from here! I'm not good at English. Help me please.219.165.169.201 10:15, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I must admit that I cannot see the resemblance. The articles deal with the same subject, but except for that they are quite different. Could you point out what has been copied? If you are User:219.165.169.12, you should add the page to Wikipedia:Possible copyright infringements instead of Wikipedia:Votes for deletion. Rasmus Faber 10:45, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It hasn't been put on VfD. We can either add it to VfD or delete the tag. I think we should delete the tag. Secretlondon 10:49, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't appreciate being led on a wild goose chase to a page where the article wasn't even mentioned, so I have DELETED that tag! --Susurrus 23:44, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I also don't believe that this is a copyright violation. It's clear that the author used the page as a source, and some sentences are verbatim. A brief rewrite would remove any suspicion of copyvio. DJ Clayworth 15:13, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree. If the offcial site is the only source, one can fear that facts have not been cross-checked. Apokrif 20:50, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] criticisms

Shouldn't there be a criticisms section or something of that nature? It seems to me the article should at least mention that the society is widely considered to be a joke.

i think it may only be considered a joke by those that fail to be accepted :\ --andrew 20:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

How so? If they applied in the first place they clearly don't consider it to be a joke. I think s/he means the population at large, and there's certainly something to be said for that. In academia at least it's frequently ridiculed, and I doubt construction workers or truckers think much higher of it. The way the article is written now, someone unfamiliar with the organization might think it commanded a great deal of respect. --130.126.67.39 23:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

If one must add "criticisms", please observe Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Verifiability, i.e. quote or refer to publicly available sources, don't just express personal opinions (except in the Talk page of course).

In point of fact, Mensa is a social club which people can join to escape the popular prejudice against intelligence in general. This prejudice ("criticisms" mentioned above) is an important reason the organization exists. It is certainly true that some people take themselves too seriously, both members and "critics" of Mensa. If someone felt it important to mention this, nobody is stopping them. Though I think unsigned criticism speaks for itself.Avt tor 23:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

You state a half-truth. In fact, mensa was created for insecure idiots to get together with other insecure idiots to brag about their intelligence.
Please don't feed the troll. Wikipedia:What is a troll Catbar (Brian Rock) 00:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think, even biased as a Mensan myself, it's out of line to include some criticism if you can cite some as these people have said. It's perhaps debatable whether Mensa being the brunt of many jokes (which is certainly true) necessarily means Mensa is a joke... The biggest reaction Mensa seems to draw is apprehension and confusion about what exactly it does, besides inflating a few egos. Most criticism in this vein is topical and lighthearted, if one were seriously curious, things like the scholarship program and volunteer programs might fit the bill. Rainman420 04:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The entry reads like a PR release from the origanization itself. If it is to be useful, the entry should include documented information on Mensa's place in society at large, especialy the widespread criticism and ridicule it engenders. E.M. Gutting

What is more ridiculous, to have a high IQ or to be mad about not having it? Some comments above are rather hilarious.

I'm a university professor, and I have never heard it was ridiculed. All the opposite, it's actually quite well considered for its Research and Journals. Stephen Hawking, one of the most brilliant scientists ever, is a member of Mensa. Of couse, you can make a moke of everything but, could you please cite your sources? Prejudices or personal motivations should be out.

I'm not sure if Stephen Hawking is a member - I saw a documentary about him some time ago - it may have been made by BBC - which said that he took the test after an accident falling down stairs because he was worried he'd injured his brain, but made no mention of him joining. The entry on Hawking has a similar account. (Second paragraph of section on his illness.) Autarch 18:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not know any joke about Mensa. It there any good one? Or are they only produced by lower IQ personnel who failed the test?

I'm a Mensan, too - I'll state that up front. If anyone can document intelligent criticism of Mensa which contributes to an understanding of the group and its place in society, please feel free to add it. I'm sure it exists. Please keep personal opinions out, though, because they are non-NPOV.

I see Wikipedia getting the same treatment as Mensa sometimes. I just read today's CNN/Reuters article on how Wikipedia is "reeling" after its rapidly changing coverage of the information surrounding Kenneth Lay's death. From my perspective as a WikiInsider, I don't think Wikipedia is reeling in any sense. I feel much the same about that article's criticism of Wikipedia as I do about most of the criticism I've seen of Mensa. Those who criticize Wikipedia or Mensa from the outside often don't get the idea of what these groups are about.

Longtime members of Mensa don't band together to be snotty or to impress anyone, but because we share interests, traits and backgrounds that differ from society as a whole. We seek our peers - humans do that instinctively. The Mensa organization does try to impress people. Organizations that don't impress people aren't very effective and they don't tend to last long. Mensa needs to present a good, polished face to the public both for recruitment purposes, and so it doesn't get branded as 'secretive'. It isn't that the organization is trying to brag or lord over people, but it does have to state clearly what its requirements are. Trying to impress does have the opposite effect on some people and often does cause Mensa to get branded as elitist, but seeking out kindred spirits is why many active members belong to Mensa. We have our problems, but it saddens us to see people consider our organization to be a 'joke'. Please try to temper your thoughts of our organization with understanding and kindness. Thanks. Catbar (Brian Rock) 02:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism Redux

You want some criticism of Mensa? Well for a start it is a shamelessly elitist organisation, sanctimoniously lauding itself as being free from political, racial or religious distinction, while at the same time distinguishing itself by the similarly distasteful prejudice of (supposed) intellectual superiority. And as if that isn't enough - the benchmark for membership is grounded in the misguided belief that IQ actually says something about the individual other than his or her ability to solve anagrams and goofy little logic puzzles. Apparently Lancelot Ware was exasperated by the members' preoccupation with puzzle-solving. But is that remotely surprising? If he wished to see Mensans solving some of the world's issues, then perhaps the selection process should be geared to attract those with an interest in sophisticated real-world problems, rather than trivial brain-teasers. Until then, Mensa will be the sole reserve of the intellectually insecure, and the odd mild case of Asperger's. (...and relax...) Beeromatic 15:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Why worry about an organization you have so little regard for? Why spend any time on it at all? Just forget Mensa exists and have a good life. Catbar (Brian Rock) 05:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the concern, but I'm not all that worried actually. I just have a healthy contempt of elitism. Beeromatic 12:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not really sure if it's elitism really? Because Mensa is just a society for people that shares a similiar trait. Please show your source regarding Mensa's claim of "distasteful prejudice of (supposed) intellectual superiority"? in order to join mensa, you just have to fit a criteria. Mensa never state whether it was a good thing or bad thing to fit the criteria. I think for many member, fitting the criteria probably has some painful memories as a child. Mensa never claim superiority over anyone. You perceived that Mensa did, but does not necessarily make it true. Would you consider, say, the Chinese Student Association (CSA) in a North American university a "shamelessly elitist organisation"? Cause... you do have to be a person of Chinese origin to be able to join... I can join because I am a Chinese...you probably can't join because you are not a Chinese... The CSA I was in was great because it's a place where I can meet and social with people that has similiar interest with me. The CSA is not being elitist, nor am I. In order to join Mensa, you just have to be a person that is able to "solve anagrams and goofy little logic puzzles". It's a society where people that enjoy solving anagrams and goofy little logic puzzles can social and meet people with similiar interest. Phatpanda114 22:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
the very fact that Mensa charges people to join its establishment should ring some alarm bells. Nowhere in the page does it mention that this is a subscription service. Effectively people pay to be told they are clever. This must also cast doubt on the veracity of claims that applicants must be within the top two percentiles to qualify. I have seen many "tests" in national papers where readers are told that if they can solve the puzzle they are eligible to join Mensa. For anyone with even the most rudimentary grasp of algebra these puzzles are very easy.68.71.35.93 05:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
American Mensa posts the qualifying scores of the most common standardized intelligence test on its web site. If all you want is to think you're clever by qualifying for Mensa, you can do that without sending them a penny. Of course, you don't need Mensa's permission to think you're clever. Jwolfe 08:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Why should a membership fee "ring some alarm bells"? Even the Boy Scouts and the Freemasons have annual membership dues ... TANSTAAFL! ... show me social organization that doesn't charge for membership, and I'll show you an organization that doesn't have a Web site or a monthly magazine that's printed in color. (This is just common sense, people!) --141.156.240.102 15:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I suppose if you really wanted to muckrake on Mensa, you could bring up George Trepal the "Mensa Killer." He was apparently a member of Mensa and also a psycopath. For some unknown reason he decided the plain family nextdoor were unfit to live and poisoned them. They died horribly as the poison was not swift. The "American Justice" documentary on him makes a big deal out of the fact he was in Mensa, that he had an incredibly arrogant and elitist outlook and had to be carefully caught, even using a "honey trap" of a woman supposedly in Mensa. He got death row for the murders. If he was trully a member of Mensa in good standing, it really doesnt say too much against Mensa, all groups have their murdering psychopaths. Its like condemning violent videogames for school shooters. The A&E documentary did seem to be pandering to the idea of the "elitist Mensan out to kill the proles" though.Yanqui9 17:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe it was in Characters and Viewpoints by Orson Scott Card it was suggested that one of the ways to indicate to the reader that a character is a villain is to have them have an obviously higher level of intelligence, the whole mad scientist/Dr. No schtick. There's a common social prejudice against intelligence. One of the reasons people choose to socialize with people in Mensa is to escape that prejudice. Avt tor 22:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Is such a prejudice more related to a particular culture than universal? Autarch 17:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mensa SIGs (Special Interest Groups)

The article doesn't seem to be specific enough about Special Interest Groups - I was under the impression they are organised at the level of National Mensas. (I'm an ex-Mensan deliberating whether to join up again after a few years.) Autarch 18:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I just touched up SIGs. There are more unofficial and international SIGs than I can count now. Check out Yahoo! Groups, and search for Mensa. We also have a few multinational SIGs where participants come from Mensa Germany, Austria, or Switzerland. samwaltz 19:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logo

The logo is mentioned in the article, would it be possible to get a copy of the logo and place it at the top of the page? That ought to qualify as fair use. Kerowyn 00:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British Mensa and Digestive Biscuits

I once attempted to ask the British Mensa what, exactly, the purpose of a digestive biscuit was. More importantly, what are they, what flavors, if any, are they available in, and why are they seemingly so popular with Brits? I filled out much of the question submission form, until I realized that giving up my telephone number and house address would be necessary. So please, if anyone does know what a digestive biscuit is, would you please email your answer to dog_luver3719@yahoo.com. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.181.198.98 (talk • contribs) .

I'm not sure just what that has to do with Mensa, or with Wikipedia for that matter. *Dan T.* 03:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the Mensa connection either, but Wikipedia does have an article about digestive biscuits. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.142.215.52 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] IQ doesn't change with age?

It states in the article as a flatout fact that IQ does not change with age. I thought this was controversial. There is a lot of debate over what IQ even is. --Bluejay Young 22:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I read in Intelligence: a very short introduction by Ian Deary that you are compared with your age peers - thus it's constant within your group of peers, as I understand it. Autarch 16:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Instead of debating this here, can we just ignore the topic, and recommend that readers go to the I.Q. page? Along the lines of in the top 2% of I.Q., although there is still little consensus as to what I.Q. is, how it can be accurately measured, or whether it is retained over time.' That really is a matter to be discussed there, and then there would be no necessity of repeating the argument elsewhere. samwaltz 18:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Family Guy

I'm pretty sure that Peter Griffin does not take a mensa test but is applying for a MacArthor Fellows Grant. link title

[edit] Cut from the article

I moved the following paragraph from the article: it's important and needs to be read, but here, on the talk page:

(Please note that Sharon Stone has denied on numerous occasions being a member and US Mensa has been unable to verify that she ever was a member. Please do not add her back to the list of famous Mensans. Take her word for it (and US Mensa's word) that she was not a member.) (added by User:Postcard Cathy)

For what it's worth, this is my understanding as well--Sharon Stone isn't a member. Antandrus (talk) 14:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] -ize/-ise

Was changing "standardize" and "organization" to "standardise" and "organisation" really necessary? Yes, the group was formed in the UK, however 50K members are in the US, whereas 25K members are in the UK. As such, either usage seems appropriate. samwaltz 15:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pop Culture trivia

I found (and corrected) the phrase "the murderer is a member of the less well-known 'Sigma' society http://www.sigmasociety.com which has similar requirements for membership to Mensa" in the article, which I consider to be remarkably bad English, (and thus am remarking on it).

[edit] Delete threat

There is an anti-Hi-IQ/Gifted Jihad in process at the moment. Already the Mega Society has been deleted and Ronald K. Hoeflin and The Ultranet are up for deletion. Who will be next? Marilyn vos Savant, Mensa? Don't take this lying down: the Mega Society deletion has been appealed, please go here and support its reinstatement with an overturn vote.

Possible articles under threat are:

Marilyn vos Savant, International High IQ Society, Mensa International, Intertel, Colloquy, CIVIQ Society, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry, Triple Nine Society, Prometheus Society, HELLIQ Society, The Ultranet, OLYMPIQ Society, Giga Society

--Michael C. Price talk 00:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Since I wrote the above more of the articles I listed have come under attack. The majority now have AfDs or warning tags attached. --Michael C. Price talk 06:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

As you may have heard the Mega Society article was deleted awhile ago, at the end of an acrimonious AfD/DRV process. There is a wide divergence between deletion policy (as defined by various policy guideline documents) and deletion practice, as implemented by admins (who claim to be following the "spirit" of the law). Consequently there are lessons to be learnt from the experience, which will not be obvious from reading the guidelines. Here are some tips for future conduct:

  • Single purpose users are frowned upon and were a frequent bone of contention during the AfD and DRV processes. So I urge you all to "establish" yourself as Wikipedians: create, edit and even ... delete articles! There are plenty of articles that need attention.
  • It is a very good idea to put something on your user page, (it doesn't matter what) to avoid showing up as redlinked users -- being redlinked will count against you in any debate.
  • When voting, include brief reasons which are grounded in policy (votes not backed by reasoning may be discounted; too much reasoning will be ignored).

Given the bias against soliciting (see judgement) I may not be able to contact you again, so I suggest you put the Mega Society in your watchlists.

The closing admin's comments on the Mega Society:

Within the argumentation of the debate, the most significant point raised by those who supported the article was that a new draft was available. The article is not protected, so this may be posted at any time and (assuming it is not substantially similiar to the older version) it will be judged anew on its merits. This is good news for you.
The bad news for you is that it is well-established practice within Wikipedia to ignore completely floods of newer, obviously "single-issue POV", contributors at all our deletion fora. I'm among the most "process-wonkish" of Wikipedians, believe me, and even process-wonks accept that these sorts of voters are completely discountable. Wikipedia is not a pure democracy; though consensus matters, the opinion of newcomers unfamiliar with policy is given very little weight. Your vote, that of Tim Shell, and that wjhonson were not discounted. The others supporting your view were. I promise you that it is almost always true that, within Wikipedia, any argument supported by a flood of new users will lose, no matter how many of the new users make their voices known. In the digital age, where sockpuppeting and meatpuppeting are as easy as posting to any message board, this is as it should be for the sake of encyclopedic integrity. It is a firm practice within Wikipedia, and it is what every policy and guideline mean to imply, however vaguely they may be worded. (I do agree that our policies, written by laypeople mostly, could do with a once-over from an attorney such as myself; however, most laypeople hate lawyers, so efforts to tighten wording are typically met with dissent.)
If your supporters were more familiar with Wikipedia, they would realize that, invariably, the most effective way to establish an article after it has been deleted in a close AfD is to rewrite it: make it "faster, better, stronger." This is, in fact, what you claim to have done with your draft. Good show. Best wishes, Xoloz 16:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

So the outcome was not entirely negative, although I was disappointed by the admin's rather cavalier approach evidenced by the response to my enquiry:

.... why did you discount the votes of, say, User:GregorB or User:Canon? They are not new users, nor did I solicit them. I presume by Tim Shell you mean Tim Smith? ...... --Michael C. Price talk 16:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

to which I received this rather off-hand reply:

User:GregorB offered a very brief comment not supported by policy. User:Canon did take the time to offer analysis at DRV, but he had been among the first voters at the AfD to offer a mere "Keep" without explanation; therefore, I assumed he had been solicited by someone. Best wishes, Xoloz 15:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

which didn't fill me with confidence about Wiki-"due process".

Anyway, my grumpiness aside, the Mega Society article, is presently under userfied open-development at User:MichaelCPrice/mega, and will reappear at some point, when (hopefully) some of the ill-feeling evidenced during the debate has cooled. I am very heartened by the article's continued development, and by the development of associated articles. Thanks for everyone's help!

--Michael C. Price talk 14:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Poster Dennette Advocates Censorship

So I posted an addendum to the Mensa page and it was instantly reverted by the user Dennette [1]. I read his profile and I guess I'm not surprised by his behavior.

Here is what Dennette censored (which is true):

Ironically, for an organization known for intelligence, the Canadian branch has an archaic membership payment system. If an individual was to join in June and pay a full year of membership (approximately 90 dollars), their membership would only last until the end of December, at which point they would be asked to pay another year of membership.

You can see the change history here [2]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Source.transformer (talk • contribs) 02:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Dennette here I'm afraid. While the comment may be true it is inappropiate for the article. This is a place to document the organisation as a whole (including criticisms of that society) but it's not a place to include one individuals personal criticism of their own experiance with the organisation. Also note that describing the payment system as archaic is in violation of wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.  YDAM TALK 08:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Mensa Canada's annual dues are C$55. Its members prefer to have membership based on the calendar year.Avt tor 18:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userboxes for Mensa members

Editors who want to advertise their membership may use the "{{User Mensa}}" template to create a userbox on their page and add it to Category:Wikipedians in Mensa ... then add "{{User IQ}}" if you really want to show off. —141.156.240.102 17:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mensa Boutique

http://www.mensaboutique.com/

states at the bottom.. "These pages and all contents copyright© 2000-2006 by American Mensa, Ltd. Mensa � and the Mensa logo appearing at the top of this page are registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office by American Mensa, Ltd., and are the registered marks of Mensa International, Ltd. in other countries." Why should it have been deleted? 72.225.211.237 23:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Try WP:ADVERT and Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided ... that site does not contain any "useful information" about the orgnaization under discussion ... it's just a commercial site selling branded products to members. Copyright and trademark notices have nothing to do with it ... it's the "View Your SHOPPING CART" and "Go To CHECKOUT NOW" buttons on every page. Wikipedia is not a resource for conducting business. That was a spam link, pure and simple ... advertising links are forbidden in Wikipedia articles.
Check the history of this article and you'll see that links to Mensa National Groups (like Argentina, Hong Kong, Ireland, etc.) have been recently removed, because the link to Websites of all Mensa National Groups is sufficient (besides, Mensa International keeps it up-to-date) ... links to SIGs, RGs, and online IQ tests have been removed as well, all for being unencyclopedic. —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 03:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

reading on this, SIG's are actually a key part of Mensa. Mensa is an organization much like the United States, and Sig's can be thought of as being states within the United States. Most members belong to various SIG's and they help maintain cohesiveness within the organization under the MENSA umbrella. GrandWizard 05:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a directory. People could use a Special Interest Group (SIG) link as a back-door to their online business ... sometimes they're just a link to a MySpace or other WP:VAIN page ... an encyclopedia is not a resource for social networking, so links to any SIG for any organization are inappropriate for Wikipedia articles. —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 05:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
purely subjective, i'd like a consensus. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.205.160 (talk • contribs) 23:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology and alliteration

I know this objection sounds a bit pedantic. We are using three terms interchangably on the page, "Mensan", "member of Mensa", and "Mensa member". I wanted to propose removing the third, as it is already superfluous, and phonetically unaesthetic (I know, De gustibus non est disputandum, which is precisely why I'm mentioning it here before I remove it). We have a double trochee where the first syllable of each is virtually identical. While poetically interesting, it doesn't scan well for an encyclopedia. I would suggest only using the terms "Mensan" or "member" (in cases in which the context is clear) here. Is there any opposition? (And obviously, terms like "Mensanness" would not be able to replace "Membership". Heh.) samwaltz 09:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Far Side

Does anyone happen to remember on which date The Far Side mentioned Mensa? I'd like to be able to include that in the trivium added today. All of my TFS books are 5000 miles away. samwaltz 16:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 6.1 Pop culture trivia -> 7 Pop culture and media references

I changed the name of this section, and elevated it one level, so it is the same as "Trivia" instead of being a subsection of it. It was becoming a magnet for fancruft like "A member of Mensa was on a UK game show" and "There was a newspaper cartoon from 1995 that mentioned Mensa."

I also pruned it, leaving what I thought were the concise, well linked "encyclopedic" entries to films, and in the case of TV shows, ones where Mensa membership is a recurring issue in the storyline or a character's back-story ... for example, I'd never even heard of the British television comedy Green Wing, but the article for the fictional character Alan Statham is linked to Mensa International where his membership is mentioned, as are the articles for characters from The Simpsons and Stargate Atlantis.

There is no WP:NOTABLE for "trivia" and "pop culture" references, but I think we can agree that there have to be limits, or else this section could grow larger than the main article ... my apologies to anyone whose pet reference I deleted, but as editors we each have the responsiblity to fight "creeping cruft". —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 19:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Little Yellow Map Pin

Probably just an anecdote, so I moved it from the main page ...

For many years, incoming members recieved a Little Yellow Map Pin (or LYMP) as part of their membership packet. It was worn as a lapel pin by members to identify each other at informal local events, such as a monthly TGIF at a popular and conveniently located establishment. Local monthly newsletters even advised members to obtain a LYMP on their own if it had not arrived yet, or if they ever lost it. Mensa discontinued this practice in the 1980s after an unfortunate incident involving the United States Secret Service, who were also using yellow map pins (of a slightly different shade) for agents to covertly identify each other when the President appeared in crowded public venues.[citation needed]

Somebody can put it back if they find a citation. --141.156.241.54 04:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

American Mensa did the yellow map pin back in the 1980's .... that is not a thing that we do now, and haven't for maybe 2 decades. The Mensa Boutique http://www.mensaboutique.org sells all kinds of signature things for us to proudly display our membership. It would be silly to talk about Mensa of more than 20 years ago. 66.23.230.122 18:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio

I've copyvio'd this, it is unquestionably lifted almost entirely from the about page of Mensa. Please note this is NOT anti-mensa sentiment or anti-hi-iq rallying, it just needs to not be a copyright infringement to be a good article. •Elomis• 22:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This page has received hundreds of edits over time. Searching for phrases shows little that is directly copied from the Mensa International page. Discussion and consensus would be appropriate before removing this heavily-edited page from view. Avt tor 23:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
That was a Totally Bogus call, man ... see the earliest revision of this arcticle (02:55, 1 December 2002) and based on how long it's been around, consider that maybe the page on www.mensa.org is a copyvio of THIS page! Plagiarism? Maybe. Copyvio? Not even close!! 72.75.107.168 00:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I changed the "External link" from the Mensa Home page to the Mensa Information page that was cited as the source of the copyvio ... maybe this will avoid confusion in the future, since it's Right Up Front now. (Show me any article here about a social organisation that does not have a few things copied from the official pamphlets or website, and I'll show you a Very Poor article!)

Mensa has three stated purposes: to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity; to encourage research in the nature, characteristics, and uses of intelligence; and to promote stimulating intellectual and social opportunities for its members.

Should someone put a {{fact}} tag on that sentence? Or maybe readers can just go to the site and see it for themselves in the "Goals" section. Gimme a Break! 72.75.107.168 00:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Before removing this heavily-edited page from view I considered {{db-copyvio}} but decided against it because obviously the page is well maintained, but it was GLARING that not just a phrase or two but enormous chunks appeared to be wholesale lifted from the about URL. I did consider that www.mensa.org is a copyvio of this page, well, as much as you can copyvio a GFDL page. Decided it was better to be safe than sorry so did what the guidelines outline which is blank the page and place the notice. Your criticisms are a little too heated to be considered civil. I reject the idea that it's Not even close!! to copyvio, it IS close, But if the consesus is that it's NOT copyvio then we should leave it for now, but perhaps some work should go into this to distinguish it from the website in question a little more. •Elomis• 02:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There are now 4 {{cite web}} tags that point to the Mensa "About" page ... if you find any more "enormous chunks ... wholesale lifted from the about URL", then just put <ref name="mensa"/> next to them. —72.75.93.131 (talk • contribs) 08:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

I've only glanced through the article but does any one know why MENSA is called MENSA? Is it anything to do with the Latin word for table?Algebra man 21:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Please feel free to read the article. Avt tor 05:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Young members

I've deleted that claim that a particular kid was one of only 30 members under the age of 10. It wasn't in the cited article, and it defies my own experience.

My own son joined Mensa at the age of 6, in 1992, with an IQ of 146. At the time, looking over the membership information we were provided, he was one of two youngsters in our town under the age of 10 in Mensa—and we live in a merely mid-size town in the Southeastern US. It seems likely to me that there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of under-ten Mensans across the US alone, given the propensity of present-day parents to parade their progeny's perceived precocity. Unschool 02:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meanings in various languages

I removed the meanings in other languages, as they are off-topic within this article:

  • Mensa is used colloquially in Spanish to mean "stupid", and the word menso (feminine: mensa) means "jerk" in certain parts of Latin America.
  • Mensa is the Italian word for cafeteria, as well as the German word for a canteen at a university or a school (both come from the original Latin meaning of table.)
  • Mens is Dutch and Afrikaans for human.
  • Mens is also the Swedish and Norwegian expression for menstruation.
  • In Galician and Catalan, mensa is similar to (and often confused with) pensa (imperative for think).

bogdan 18:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

No, they really aren't off topic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.251.69.157 (talk • contribs) 00:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they are off-topic. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. bogdan 00:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it all started with the "stupid/jerk in Spanish" reference, the irony of which was very much on-topic ... unfortunately, it became a cruft-magnet for every editor who wanted to make an "original" contribution that would not be immediately challenged and reverted, the result of which was this smeggy dictionary list ... I even remember reformatting it as a table from a single paragraph a few months back, and a few more got added after that ... someone changed "slang" to "colloquially", beau coup other "cosmetic" edits to the section ... it started out well, but it soured with each addition.
The fact that no one has reverted your deletion is a sign that there is a consensus that the article is indeed Better without it ... I thought about restoring the first one (after all, it is "ironic"), but I'll leave that decision up to you ... maybe as a second sentence in the same bullet as the Latin, but not as a sub-bulleted item, as if it were an invitation to add to a list of examples ... then watch the page and revert additions based on this Talk page discussion ... No More Foreign Language Examples! —72.75.85.159 (talk • contribs) 01:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IQ Tests

IQ tests are only a qualifying criterion for membership in Mensa, not the defining purpose of the organization. IQ test links might (emphasis might) belong on a "list of online IQ tests" which in turn might be linked from an article about IQ tests, but that doesn't belong on the Mensa page itself. Mensa is (somewhat) defined by the notion of IQ, not the other way around. As such, and as consistent with practice by past editors, I will remove a new link to an IQ test. Avt tor 13:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh. While I was on the Talk page, another editor was actually removing the link. Avt tor 13:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lifetime-membership

I just added that the life-memberships are generally non-transferrable. Goofy legalese, I'm sure. I've lived in five countries, each of which has a Mensa chapter. If I start a 2007 membership in Austria, and move to Slovakia, Mensa.sk will recognise me for the remainder of the year; I would however, have to buy a Mensa.sk membership for 2008 to be included then. Mensa.sk will not, however, recognise a lifetime Mensa.at membership, as it is Mensa.sk which has to cover it's own financial arse... paying for brochures, leaflets, magazines, etc. And just think, I'll be moving to Japan in March... samwaltz 13:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

It could be better worded. When I see "non-transferrable", I think of person-to-person transfers, not country-to-country transfers by the same person. Jwolfe 13:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
D'oh! ... I think that I may have contributed the "Life Membership" sentence several months ago, so I took a crack at rewording the "non-transferrable" part. --72.75.126.37 17:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the details about how much it costs for a Life Membership, because it appears to vary by national group. In the U.S., it's a sliding scale based on age. Jwolfe 20:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Good call ... I purchased mine in 1988 (just got my 25-year member certificate a few weeks ago! :-) and I haven't attended any of the functions in over a decade, so I really haven't paid any attention to changes in the annual dues or Life Membership price ... anywho, I was still a newbie at the time, but now I can see that it's just unsourced Original Research (i.e., fancruft) that I wouldn't even contemplate adding today. --72.75.126.37 21:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mind Games

I was thinking about putting up a page or category: Mind Games (Mensa). Mind Games is Mensa.US's annual contest for best game of the year. More info is available here. What do you think? Is this article-worthy? I'd at least recommend a cat-tag for all qualifying games. samwaltz 07:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that idea is that you assume any of the "qualifying games" will be WP:N and have articles ... remember, just because they were entered in a competition does not make them notable ... but worse than that, how much verifiable independent reliable source coverage has there been of the competition itself to meet WP:Notability?
Aside from the Mensa Bulletin, I've never encountered any reportage except that one year the winner was mentioned on NPR in a piece in the business segment about start-up companies, and a winner from a prior year was talking about balancing just-in-time production with seasonal demand so that he didn't have to warehouse surplus inventory ... no talk of the game itself, just problems manufacturing the game for sale to a niche market, i.e., the very small minority of the population with very high IQs ... no, I'd rank that category and article as Pretty Darn Low on the worthy scale. --72.75.126.37 13:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
My opinion in other categories is that (verifiable) award winners are notable, nominations are not, in general. Avt tor 13:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm a goof. I just got through writing about 20% of the page, and realised that the page already exists. List of Mensa Select recipients. Ah well, I guess I'll be writing up a category page, anyway. samwaltz 16:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Mensa Select recipients

I have added a "{{prod}}" template to the article List of Mensa Select recipients, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, or, if you disagree with the notice, discuss the issues at its talk page. Removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, but the article may still be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached, or if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria. —72.75.126.37 (talk • contribs) 18:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you arguing that American Mensa isn't part of Mensa International, that the information on the page doesn't agree with the provided external link, or that Mensa doesn't actually care about intellectual games, even though they offer an award for such? Avt tor 18:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm arguing that a few dozen people playing board games for a 48 hour marathon once a year is not WP:N for an article, regardless of who they are ... and I say this as a "judge" from one over ten years ago when I was still an active participant. (For a few years I was on the national committee that approved local group by-laws, and Ombudsman for one of the largest local groups in the American Mensa; I'm still a paid member after 25 years, but I just don't attend functions any longer for reasons that are not a topic for conversation.) --72.75.126.37 19:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative Admissions?

I was once approached by a member of Mensa in the USA––or someone purporting to be a member––who had been a coworker of mine and told that there are in fact other ways of gaining admission to Mensa than by scoring in the 98th percentile on the usual IQ tests. This individual indicated that Mensa actually recognizes that there are many highly intelligent persons who do not test well, due to factors such as test anxiety and attention deficit. He stated that exceptions are therefore made to the usual requirement, on occasion, and that it is possible to become a member of Mensa based upon demonstrated intellectual achievements of a high level and favorable recommendations from a sufficient number of members. He further indicated that this was strictly on the QT. This struck me as being unlikely. I had no interest in joining in any case. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.167.48.61 (talk) 16:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

First to answer your question: Mensa isn't a secret society and would not have the ability to do anything "on the QT". There are other ways of proving intelligence other than the Stanford-Binet test that Mensa chapters proctor for potential new members from time to time; often the alternative methods of proof (typically other very generic standardized tests, like the old SATs) are listed on the national organization's web site, and at any rate you can contact the national organization and they can tell you what methods they'll accept. Second, Mensa is basically a social organization; I joined because I like the people who are members; if you don't like the people suggesting that you join, you probably shoudn't. Third, the talk page is only for discussion of the Wikipedia page; it isn't a forum for discussing the subject matter, so let's not have an extended discussion here. Avt tor 17:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The individual in question stated that there was a "back door" method of getting into Mensa, or some chapter thereof, that used criteria other than standardized test scores. I presume this is false, but thought it worth mentioning just in case. "If you don't like the people suggesting that you join, you probably shoudn't." Agreed. The Mensans I have met (and known to be such) have been a mixed bag, but several have had an elitist streak that I don't care for. I can, however, relate to the need to socialize with others who have strong intellectual interests and aren't afraid to think. End of discussion. 66.167.48.61 19:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

American Mensa uses standardized tests only (I am a former proctor) and what tests are accepted are clearly posted on their web site: http://www.us.mensa.org/Content/AML/NavigationMenu/Join/SubmitTestScores/QualifyingTestScores/QualifyingScores.htm 66.23.230.122 17:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Section: Members of Mensa

Do we have any clear guidelines as to what fits in the section "Members of Mensa"? After the recent entry "Another young member is Mikhail, aged three years, who recently appeared on Channel 4's Child Genius", I'm concerned that it might balloon into a list again. Alternatively, if we changed the header to "Demographics of Mensa", I presume that random wikipedia editors would be less inclined to include personal names; the term "members" focuses on indivuals, whereas "demographics" focuses on the group/statistics. samwaltz 14:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I would go with "Demographics of Mensa members", but otherwise, I agree with what you say. I wouldn't strongly object to your proposed new header, either. We don't need another unverified and unverifiable list of purported members. Jwolfe 18:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Good call. I also agree with you and like the way you've edited this. Adding any names to that section at all would be a slipperly slope, as editors would just want to start adding people. DanielEng 20:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


I think that this link should be deleted as your are listing Americans that are not currently membes of Mensa as I verified in the American Mensa directory. Because some one claims something on their page -- does not make it true -- and in several cases it is verified to be false. 66.23.231.219 18:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

  • a) There is no one mentioned in the Demographics section, and has not been for quite some time.
  • b) When there was, a number of the people listed were/are not United States citizens, and would not show up in the American Mensa bulletin.

[edit] Vandalism watch / logo

I just noticed that the previous edit to the main page (the one by IP 70.168.213.50 ) removed the logo from the page; it looks like s/he's removed it from the source file, too. Could someone upload a new one, and link it back in to the page? It's near midnight, and I need to get some sleep. samwaltz 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC) The logo was deleted. The reason given was "(no source no tag)". : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Image:Mensa-logo.jpg samwaltz 22:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. This is the cleanest logo I could find. Unfortunately, it's a bit small for my tastes. If anyone happens to have access to a larger one, could you please upload it? Cheers, samwaltz 09:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Layered cakes and tortolagies?

I just removed the following comment from the page. Can anyone translate it into anything vaguely encyclopedic? Does anyone have a source? samwaltz 11:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

  • unfortunately mensa has received criticism after offering to send its members a 'free gift' a blatant use of tortolagy that has shamed the name of Mensa

[edit] pop culture

I deleted the pop culture references section, as per Wikipedia guideline to avoid trivia sections; I don't think these things belong in an encyclopedia article. If another editor feels this was really essential material then you may of course revert it. Or could add a sentence to the article along the lines of Mensa having occasionally been the subject of references in film and television. Wichienmaat 12:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Good Call ... that section was nothing but a frequently reverted cruft-magnet, anyway ...

"In the 2000 comedy Me, Myself and Irene, the character Charlie Baileygates (played by Jim Carrey) is abandoned by his Mensan wife after she has three children with a man who happens to be president of the Boston Chapter of Mensa."

... yeah, that's real encyclopedic. --68.239.79.97 14:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../m/e/n/Talk%7EMensa_International_a2d2.html"