Talk:Menes

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Contents 1 Menes or Hor-Aha? 2 Succession box 3 Narmer/Menes one in the same... 4 Disputed Existence 5 The first paragraph

[edit] Menes or Hor-Aha?

Shouldn't there be just one article for Menes/Hor-Aha, unless they were different people? Lenny Kilmister

[edit] Succession box

It seems to me we shouldn't have one here at all. Archaeology tells us only of Narmer and Hor-Aha; Manetho mentions neither. (His second king, Athothis, is identified with Djer.) Where exactly does Menes fit in here? We don't know for sure and there is no scholarly consensus. It's better to say nothing than to include something that gives a false impression of certitude, as does a succession box. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Menes' name does apper to be found on several different ostrica at abydos. There is dispute towards if he was the same as other kings, but there is overwhelming archaeological evidence that Menes existed. The dispute is to if he was or was not the same as either narmer or Hor-aha. However, the order that seperatists keep Narmer, Menes, and Hor-Aha in is Narmer-Menes-HorAha. Some people say Narmer is Menes, which leads to the order Narmer/Menes - Hor Aha, and some say Narmer Menes/Hor Aha, and some even say they're all the same person, but the order is always Narmer-Menes-Hor Aha. The "?" are used to describe that sucession is unclear, and any further unclarity ought to be explained in text. Thanatosimii 02:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Narmer/Menes one in the same...

What's the current egyptological consensus on the possible one-personness (what's the word?) of Narmer and Menes? Because I think it's the general consensus that they're the same person. Nice to see that the portrait of Narmer/Menes is finally up (Thanatosimi was that you?) which is rarely shown in the mainstream, because of its, um, features ;). Peace. And Thanatosimi if you could present evidence that Narmer and Menes are different individuals, or if Menes was merely mythical. Thank you. Peace. Teth22 01:01, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There hasn't been a technical egyptological position on Menes because there hasn't been a seminal predynastic work done by a formal egyptologist since Emery's work, which has certain outdated claims in it. There's a sociologist/anthropologist who did a work, but obviously he didn't touch this issue. Egyptologists range from Serqet-Narmer-Menes-Horaha all being one, to them all being four, and anything inbetween. As for the Narmer-Menes-Horaha business evidence, Gardiner and Emery bicker between each other in their two works on the significance of "nbty mn" and "Hr Hr-ahA" coming sequentially instead of facing each other on the ivory tag, and each one claims different facts about the state of the artifacts from later on which would show how to interpret these. In other words, there's no consensus or definitive evidence one way or the other. Thanatosimii 03:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

As to the picture, I didn't do that, but I'd like to know the providence. If that's a real menes head from the first dynasty, that'd be the only portreture of a pharaoh before the Old Kingdom... Thanatosimii 03:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, thank you. Oh, so you didn't put up the Menes head? And as for the "providence" it was found in a first dynasty tomb by Petrie in the late 19th century, and why do you say "if that's a real menes head"? Do you doubt it's authenticity? And no there are other portaitures of pre-old kingdom pharaohs, Khaskehmy (?) of the 2nd dynasty, and I think Djet of the first dynasty. Peace. Teth22 06:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That's "provenance". Petrie indeed said this head was that of Menes -- but he based that by comparing it to the Narmer Palette, not on any epigraphical evidence.[1] That's a very dodgy method, and I doubt anyone would accept it today. It also relies on the identification of Menes with Narmer, which cannot be made with any certainty.

That image may come down soon anyway. It looks like a copyvio. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I guess that's what I get for listening to art scholars who slur their words.
There are indeed portraitures, however I can't seem to think of any 3d sculpture of a head. At any rate, I suppose I am simply suprised that petrie would say that was a menes head, due to his affiliations with the now defunct Dynastic Race Theory, and the fact that he wrote a paper for the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain which divides all heads into four or five "racial" subsets. Petrie would have probably put this under the so called Badarian race due to its features. But I suppose if he did, he did. Yet I agree with Csernica, It's pretty tenuous at best. Thanatosimii 07:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh the image violates copyright laws somehow? and what do you mean it's tenous? Teth22 08:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The image was tagged with {{pd-self}}, but I'm positive the uploader didn't create it, and I've found a copyrighted webpage displaying it. (It might be a copyvio there too. Or it might be a very old image that's really PD. Since the uploader didn't tag it truthfully, it's impossible to say.)

There's a big problem in Egyptology over whether Hor-Aha, Narmer, and Menes are to be identified with each other, whether Menes was really one or the other, whether these were three separate people, or whether Menes was a title borne by both early kings. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Some throw King Scorpion in too, just for good measure, but I think that's unlikely. Thanatosimii 22:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The infamous Scorpion king? Oh no no, he was clearly before Narmer, and was just a local king of Upper Egypt, who says Menes and Scorpion are one in the same? And Thanatasomii, since you seem to an amateur egytpologist, have you heard of Tera Neter and the so called Aunu people? Get back to me. Peace. Teth22 23:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, I believe that there is some conspircacy(sorry for the conspiracy theory but I honestly believe) to disprove King Menes & ancient egypt's Blackness. Those people were "brothas" and no one wants to admitt it. So now they have taken down the picture of Menes' head. Thats not right. Why does it matter that the world modeled its civilizations after a black man's?? Just accept it. Maybe that'll end racism if the world knew that every race has accomplished something & contributed to humanity. User:Thatmaned 6 January 2007

[edit] Disputed Existence

Shouldn't it say somewhere that it's possible that Menes never existed? Some archaeologists believe that Menes was a Romulus type figure: he probably existed, but details about his reign could be Fact or Fiction.Erik the Red 2 20:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Erik the Red 2 .

Yes, well, we've had this debate before. There should probably be a comment that there is almost certainly no validity to manetho's tales about this one, however it is fact that the name mny appears in contemporary records as a king's name. However, it's also almost certain that he's just another name for either Narmer or Hor-Aha. There is no credible egyptologist whom I am aware of who has postulated that Menes is just a myth within at least the last 50 years. Thanatosimii 20:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The first paragraph

I think the first paragraph needs some slight rewording. Particularly this part: "to some authors the founder of this dynasty, to others the Second." I'm not exactly sure what was intended by that statement, but as it stands it is a fragment. Dominicus Cerberus 02:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)