Talk:Melik
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[edit] Disputed wording
Is this a joke? Melik is not Armenian title, it's originally Arabic. It was awarded to Armenians by ruling Arab, Seljuk Turkish, and later Iranian elites. And when did Tabriz become Armenian? Atabek 14:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- And pigs can fly. It's an Armenian title, the root of the word is Arabic.--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 14:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Merge request
This is a distinct title and has nothing to do with the Arabic designation for king, the word is merely derived from Arabic.--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- No, this is the title for minor feudals used in Caucasus. Meliks were both Muslim and Christian and they were subordinate to khans, which were subordinate to Shah. Grandmaster 15:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Muslims were Khans. Armenians were Meliks. I never heard of a Muslim melik in the Caucasus. Not to mention that most of the time they were subordinates to nobody.--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- There were Muslim meliks, meliks of Bargushad, for example. Khan was a higher title, and meliks were subordinate to them. Grandmaster 15:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Muslims were Khans. Armenians were Meliks. I never heard of a Muslim melik in the Caucasus. Not to mention that most of the time they were subordinates to nobody.--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Когда Надир-шах добивался в Мугани персидского престола, то ганджинские ханы, преданные дому Сефевидов, воспротивились его желанию. Однако он, утвердившись на престоле, ограничился только ослаблением их власти, переселив многих из Карабага в Хорасан. Меликов же Бергушадского и Хамсинских подчинил главному правителю Азербайджана. Жителей магалов Карахского из числа переселенных Хулагу-ханом и Борчалинского, поселенных на границах Грузии шах Аббасом I, Надир поручил грузинскому валию и таким образом под властью ханов ганджинских остались только окрестности города Ганджи. [1] Grandmaster 19:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Meliks of Bergushad and Xamsa? So? Am I missing something?--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 19:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Bargushad is not the same as Khamsa, which was in Karabakh. Bargushad was not Armenian, as far as I know. Grandmaster 20:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Meliks of Bergushad and Xamsa? So? Am I missing something?--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 19:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Когда Надир-шах добивался в Мугани персидского престола, то ганджинские ханы, преданные дому Сефевидов, воспротивились его желанию. Однако он, утвердившись на престоле, ограничился только ослаблением их власти, переселив многих из Карабага в Хорасан. Меликов же Бергушадского и Хамсинских подчинил главному правителю Азербайджана. Жителей магалов Карахского из числа переселенных Хулагу-ханом и Борчалинского, поселенных на границах Грузии шах Аббасом I, Надир поручил грузинскому валию и таким образом под властью ханов ганджинских остались только окрестности города Ганджи. [1] Grandmaster 19:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
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- http://books.google.com/bkshp?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wp&q=meliks All the refernces are to Armenians. Hell with that alone this article can be improved quite nicely.--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- The google hits are about Karabakh meliks, but none of them says that meliks were only Armenian. Meliks of Bargusahd were Muslim. Melik is title of minor feudal in the Caucasus and not something exclusively Armenian. Grandmaster 07:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Do we have to take your word for it? --Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 12:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- This is not true at all, Malik for the Muslims was to refer to the principality, the word has been taken by Armenians for a specific position worked out also by the Safavit to give Armenians a sort of self administration. There are more sources about the Armenian Meliks than March Event and all the pages you creat about Azeriz notable people that no one heard about. Please stop it. Fad (ix) 14:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Do we have to take your word for it? --Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 12:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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- There’s not a single source that says that the title of melik was used by Armenians only, however there are sources that say that Muslims also used this title. See the following quotes from Abbasgulu Bakikhanov:
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- Мухаммад-хан Казикумыкский по тайному подстрекательству Мелика Али Арешского пригласил к себе в Ареш Агакиши-бека, который был женат на его дочери, убил его изменническим образом, взял свою дочь и выдал ее за Алхаз-бека Илисуйского, oт которого родился Ахмед-хан, султан илисуйский.
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- Из грамот Дергах-хана, особенно из той, по которой Абдулла-бек, сын Хаджи Селим-бека, назначался меликом бакинского магала, видно, что Дергах-хан продолжал управлять городом Баку и в 1143 (1731) г., но неизвестно, в котором году он порвал с русскими и, разорив некоторые места в окрестностях Баку и в Ширване, удалился в Персию, где был назначен начальником части персидского войска.
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- Bakikhanov mentions meliks Ali of Aresh (modern Agdash) and melik Abdulla bey of Baku, in addition to aforementioned melik of Bargushad, so clearly the title was used by Muslims as well.
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- And all the articles that I created are about people well known outside of Azerbaijan, and they are properly sourced. What does it have to do with this? Cheap shot. Grandmaster 17:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Bakikhanov is only notable in Azerbaijan, check google book and find other Meliks beside Armenians. NOTABILITY, when will you accept that term? March Event does even not have a single book published about it, why don't you merge it? There are various works only written on the Armenian Meliks. Your mentality that "nothing is excluvially Armenian" isn't constructive at all. Fad (ix) 17:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Bakikahnov is one of the main sources on the history of Caucasus, even Armenian sholars such as Bournatian refer to him. Grandmaster 17:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- So, let me understand correctly, when someone support your point, it does not matter whatever he is an Armenian or Azeri, when he does not, it makes all the difference in the world that he is an Armenian or not. You have provided a single source and which is even not clear. Does not go in parallel with the very notable Armenian Meliks. Fad (ix) 17:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Bakikahnov is one of the main sources on the history of Caucasus, even Armenian sholars such as Bournatian refer to him. Grandmaster 17:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Where does it say they are Muslim? Are you basing that on the name Ali? One of the most famous Armenian meliks was Hassan Jalal lol
- Bakikhanov is only notable in Azerbaijan, check google book and find other Meliks beside Armenians. NOTABILITY, when will you accept that term? March Event does even not have a single book published about it, why don't you merge it? There are various works only written on the Armenian Meliks. Your mentality that "nothing is excluvially Armenian" isn't constructive at all. Fad (ix) 17:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- And all the articles that I created are about people well known outside of Azerbaijan, and they are properly sourced. What does it have to do with this? Cheap shot. Grandmaster 17:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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As for sources that say it was an Armenian title: The Turkish Empire: In Its Relations with Christianity and Civilization - Page 119 by Richard Robert Madden - 1862: Those who escaped with some of the Armenian Princes, styled Melik, or Kings, ... and in some of which they still retain the vain title of Melik. .... Azerbaijan: A Quest for Identity - Page 140 by Charles van der Leeuw - 2000 However, the Armenian meliks who considered themselves the area's powerbrokers The Heritage of Armenian Literature: From the Eighteenth Century to Modern Times - Page 5 by Agop Jack Hacikyan, Gabriel. Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk - 2005
Nadir Shah recognized the semi- autonomous status of the Armenian meliks The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times - Page 88 by Richard G. (EDT) Hovannisian - 1997 the Armenian meliks who were being harassed by their Muslim neighbors. ... Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War - Page 149 by Thomas De Waal - 2003 ..of an intermingled territory is consistent with a history of rule by both Muslim khans and Armenian meliks, often separately, sometimes together. ...
In the above source De Waal who knwos the history of the region very well clearly contrasts Armenian Meliks with Muslim khans!--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 17:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- No one denies that there were Armenian meliks, but there were Muslim meliks too, which means that it was a title used throughout Caucasus and not exclusively by Armenians. Your sources don’t say that there were no Muslim meliks, they say that there were Armenian meliks, which no one disputes. But melik was a feudal title used in the Muslim world, and not only by Armenians, but by various people. That’s why this should be merged into the article about meliks, it is the same title. Grandmaster 17:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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- No, there are none, Melik derives from an Arabic word, for principality, it is was established to refer in the Caucasus to an administrative power allocated to the Armenians. The countless numbers of works refers only to that. Again, stop it and check google book. Fad (ix) 17:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Show me a source that says Melik was an exclusively Armenian title in the Caucasus. None of your sources say so. I proved that there were Muslim meliks too. Grandmaster 07:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- No you didn't prove anything. Where does it say they were muslim? On the other hand I clearly proved that in Western literature and all google book hits refer to Armenian meliks and nobody else.--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 17:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- That's probably because they all refer to and cite Armenian books. Melik (Malik) is an Arabic word, and was used by Muslims. Consequently, the Meliks of Karabakh, who were mostly non-Armenian, but Caucasian Albanian, were appointed by the Muslim shahs of Iran, the Azerbaijani dynasties of Safavids and Afshars. This anachronism is the same as having several articles for "Emperor" to denote the Japanese Emperor vs. Chinese vs. European ones. Or "khan" to denote the Great Khans of Mongolo-Tatar origin vs. the small khans of Azerbaijan and Iran. --adil 09:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Places like Aresh or Baku had no Armenian population at the time, how could those meliks be Armenian? This article should be made a section into the main article Malik. Grandmaster 09:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- That's probably because they all refer to and cite Armenian books. Melik (Malik) is an Arabic word, and was used by Muslims. Consequently, the Meliks of Karabakh, who were mostly non-Armenian, but Caucasian Albanian, were appointed by the Muslim shahs of Iran, the Azerbaijani dynasties of Safavids and Afshars. This anachronism is the same as having several articles for "Emperor" to denote the Japanese Emperor vs. Chinese vs. European ones. Or "khan" to denote the Great Khans of Mongolo-Tatar origin vs. the small khans of Azerbaijan and Iran. --adil 09:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- No you didn't prove anything. Where does it say they were muslim? On the other hand I clearly proved that in Western literature and all google book hits refer to Armenian meliks and nobody else.--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 17:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- Show me a source that says Melik was an exclusively Armenian title in the Caucasus. None of your sources say so. I proved that there were Muslim meliks too. Grandmaster 07:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- No, there are none, Melik derives from an Arabic word, for principality, it is was established to refer in the Caucasus to an administrative power allocated to the Armenians. The countless numbers of works refers only to that. Again, stop it and check google book. Fad (ix) 17:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
also, on the "Armenian" meliks and in general, about the "historic" Armenian "gavar" of Karabakh (Utik and Artsakh), you all seem to forget one of the most famous Armenian patriotic writers, a very nationalistic, pro-Armenian author, who relied only on Armenian chroniclers for his research, Raffi and his "Melikdoms of Khamsa" [2]:
Меликства Хамсы — это пять небольших гаваров, которые, соседствуя друг с другом, образуют целую область, ныне называемую Карабах, а в нашей истории известную под именем Арцах, или Малый Сюник. В более отдаленные времена она являлась частью страны Агванк.
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Эти края, которые, как я упомянул выше, когда-то являлись частью Агванского царства, впоследствии стали пристанищем армянских меликов.
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II
1. Происхождение Мелик-Бегларянов, владетелей Голистана*.
Мелик-Бегларяны — коренные утийцы, из села Ниж. Какие обстоятельства принудили их оставить родину, перебраться в Карабах и поселиться в гаваре Гюлистан, — об этом история умалчивает. Известно только, что первый переселенец, которого тюрки называли «Кара-юзбаши» («Черный сотник»), а армяне — «Черный Абов», был человеком не простым:** на своей родине он имел состояние и правил народом.
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3. Происхождение Хасан-Джалалянов, владетелей Хачена.
Из пяти господствовавших в Карабахе меликских домов лишь правители Хачена были местными жителями, а остальные, как мы видели и увидим далее, были переселенцами из других мест(4). Происхождение меликов Хачена следует считать очень древним, они потомки князей Хасан-Джалалянов. --adil 10:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
