Talk:Meher Baba/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Random comments 2 Meher Baba and Category "Persian People" 2.1 Note to Nemonoman 2.2 Reply 2.3 Possible compromise? 3 Books about Meher Baba 4 re: "false," "unnatural" sanskaras 5 Recent Reversion 6 "Being of beings" 7 Promotional Brochure? 8 Problems with Recent Revisions 8.1 POV 9 Matter, Energy, Mind... 10 Meher Baba as Parsi 11 Silent communication 12 Avatar claim

Random comments

We need to get some better citations on this page. For example "Many who attended this darshan have commented on the palpable feeling of Baba's presence" has no citation. Also, this seems to be more of a propaganda tool rather than an informational article presented in a Neutral Point of View.

I agree. Most of these comments were added on July 8. I tried reverting since there were so many NPOV problems and citation problems but it was reverted back. See my comments on these additions bottom of this page.

Excellent entry on Avatar Meher Baba. There are active communities throughout North America, and the world - leave message here if you'd loke more web information.

-)

Ron F.

April 13th 2004: I agree with Ron F. that it is an excellent entry but I did edit it by reversing the sequencing of the alphabet board and gesture use. In the article as I first read it, Meher Baba was described as using gestures first and then the alphabet board later when in fact the reverse was true.

BBesar (Jakarta)

6/24/2004: I agree with BBesar re: edit is historically correct. Meher Baba first used an alphabet board and later used gestures.

I edited the information about the defination of Avatar. Meher Baba stated that Avatar means "Being of beings".{Actually Avatar means God descent to Human form}

05 November 2005 Christina Arasmo (www.MeherBabaTampaBay.org) 01 February 2006: It's taken me a while, but I've managed to find the reference to Mother Theresa: she's quoted as saying "Meher Baba is a Christlike person" in "A Tapestry of Meher Baba's Connections with the West" by Steve Sakellarios (http://www.omplace.com/articles/Meher_Baba.html) in the section "First trip to the West". I agree that the references to Tommy had better appear in the section on Pete Townshend, so I apologise for the inconvenience - I did receive a lot of positive feedback, though. Remember that Wikipedia is meant for the general reader, who may have come across Baba's name through "Tommy" ... not everybody is as well informed as you. I happen to know the film maker from Amsterdam who made "Beyond Words" - why is there no reference to this documentary? Keep up the good work! Cheers for now, Frank 202.150.34.8 10:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...seems a bit biased to me, you guys. The writing here can hardly be called objective, as terms like "left his physical body" are scattered throughout.

Based on the nature of Meher Baba's claims to Avatar, and because his followers believe that the Avatar is ALWAYS incarnate on earth in some physical form, the phrase "left his physical body" is both accurate and in keeping with the philosophy described in the article.--Nemonoman 01:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Because he was a new religious figure, Meher Baba no doubt recieved accusations of being a cult leader, etc. but such necessary viewpoints go unmentioned in the article.

It's my impression that this particular religous leader's history was remarkably free of such accusations. If you document some, however, please include them. --Nemonoman 01:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Someone needs to work on it that is better versed in Maher Baba's thought than I. I think that people have the right to KNOW, devoid of a slant from either side, about this thinker's life, his philosophy, and the subsequent public reaction to his work.

Thanks again. Hope I'm not too harsh.

Not too harsh at all; these are constructive criticisms

I very much agree, but it is hard to find an "expert" on the man who is not also a devotee or opinionated critic. I'm far from objective, and I know it, and my edits at least have been as objective as I can make them, considering. If you would please edit this article to reflect a better sense of objectivity, I'd be grateful. --Nemonoman 01:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Jacob King

So far so good! Thank you Nemonoman!

(PeaceofMeat -- Christina Arasmo MeherBabaTampaBay.org)

I am disturbed by heading that seems to imply that Baba is most known through travels and Pete Townshend. I know very few Baba followers that came to Baba through Peter Townshend. It's time to get beyond this 60's psychodelic allusion. No wonder so few young people are attracted to Meher Baba. Saying Meher Baba is best known from the music of Pete is like saying Steven Spielberg is best known for his episodes on "Night Gallery." 16 Feb 2006: Just for the record, Townshend loathed the hippy movement and Woodstock, and after kicking his heroin habit reaffirmed his faith in Meher Baba. The drug culture and the concept of Free Love (especially premarital sex)were criticised by Baba, so where's the "psychodelic/psychoderelict/psychedelic(?) connection anyway? With due respect,your comparison to Spielberg is witty but flawed, for Townshend is still active in promoting/celebrating Baba's work, his most recent contribution being his contribution to the documentary about fellow Baba lover Ronnie Lane (the late bass player of the Small Faces, The Faces and Ronnie Lane's Slim Chance)shown in the UK last January. So whether one loves or hates Townshend's contributions, his name deserves to be mentioned in a general discussion of Baba's image and influence in the West - what has Bobby McF. done for Baba's reputation except hum his way through that ditty and state that the song title represented a pretty neat philosophy? Cheers, Frank 202.150.34.8 08:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Why ARE Townshend and Tommy so prominent in this article? At best, they are worthy of no more than asides, but are treated as quite significant. Certainly, there are great numbers of followers of Meher Baba who have either never heard of Pete Townshend or have no interest in his connection to Baba. Further, as hinted at above, the further we get from the Who's heyday, the less relevant these facts become to those seeking information about Meher Baba. - LaurenBrns

Meher Baba and Category "Persian People"

Note to Nemonoman

Dear Nemonoman, as you deleted previous posts about ethnicity of Meher Baba ....:

'Persian is an ethnicity and it refers to an ethnic group. I agree that it may also be equivalent to Iranian as the name of the country was Persia before 1935. However the word's main meaning is related to Persian ethnic group. Parsis of india are from persian ethnicity, as you probably know. Being from persian ethnic group has nothing to do with the nationality of the person. One may be from Tajikistan or Afghanistan or India or Israel and be Persian at the same time. You wrote: an't see how he's both a "persian person" and an "indian religious figure". Born, lived, died in India. He's Indian. Yes he is indian and at the same time belongs to persian ethnic group. -- Mensen 16:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Reply

Please note the header of the "Persian People" Category.

Classification: People: By nationality: Persian also: Countries: Persia: People

Since the category defines itself as describing a person's nationality, I stand by my edits.

Your description of Persian as an Ethnic Group is pretty worrisome to me.

I am very uncomfortable with describing someone's ethnic group in general. I am especially uncomfortable with suggesting that Meher Baba's ethnic group was "Persian". Baba didn't identify himself as Persian or as Parsi. So this is your label. I don't think its necessarily accurate, and I deny that it adds any value. What's next, for Pete's sake? Semetic? Caucasian?

My edit was not vandalism. It was an edit based on reason and scholarship. What was yours based on?--Nemonoman 17:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Possible compromise?

I asked a friend about this concern. He answered:

I always thought "Parsi" referred to an Indian of Persian extract, that is, to an immigrant from Persia living in India - "parsi" being a corruption of farsi, the persian language. Of course, usually these people were also Zoroastrians, which was Meher Baba's original faith.

Meher Baba is in still in the Parsi category. Is this sufficient?--Nemonoman 01:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

If one looks up Parsi in the dictionary one will see that Meher Baba was not a Parsi but an Irani.

Parsis emigrated to India centuries earlier than the Irani community into which Meher Baba was born. Both comunities are of course traditionaly Zoroastrians.

I stand by the Parsi category, since most contemporaries of Baba consistently identified him as such. Meher Baba's inclusion in that category is consistent with the definition of Category:Parsi.

However I am absolutely content is anyone wants to remove this category.

I will continue to remove references to categories: Iranians, Iranis, Persian People, etc. Meher Baba was born in India to Indian Parents, as attempts to subsume his nationality based on the nationality of his great-grandparents are not acceptable.--Nemonoman 21:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

According to Purdom's book "The God-Man" (p. 15) Sheriar, Meher Baba's father, was born in "Khooramshah, a village in Persia" (also mentioned in Bhau Kalchuri's book "Lord Meher", p. 118). [1] I don't know what that makes Meher Baba in the technical sense, but as I've found others, myself too, considered and identified as half the nationality of at least one of their parents, even if different from one's birthplace, it seems possible to conclude without rejection that Meher Baba is half or some mix of Persian. (Actually,Baba's mother too was concieved in Iran but born in india of Persian parents!) Considering the modern use of appending one's identity by whatever national ancestry one has for many generations, it seems not so far fetched to consider Meher Baba a Persian, in part at least, due to his father being Persian, fully I presume. Moreover, nationality is not the only concept that accords identity, and for many people, it seems to me, one's ethnicity is a very powerful identity. It is rather more possible to worry some people that ethnicity is not considered an identity or attribute thereof. Nations change, rapidly sometimes, in relation to the people that may inhabit a geographic region, yet a group that identifies itself by its uniqueness certainly is not necessarily limited by the change of nation that may sweep over it. Nor would offspring immediately be considered, by themselves or others, as not at all of their ancestry, especially the more immediate ancestry, known also as ethnicity, if not also nationality (a concept that some historians consider a rather recent event). So far as I have found, Meher Baba did indeed not identify himself as a Persian or Parsi, but there is little doubt that before he became Meher Baba, and was a young boy in a Zoroastrian family, he was Zoroastrian in a Parsi family in India with a Persian father. The facts readily identify him as a Parsi, a word that also readily hints at its deep connection to that region formerly known as Persia. Should we be surprised that there are not as easily created categories as those considering only nationality, such as Nemonoman brought forth, that describe ethnicities? This is a sensitive topic to many people, from the descriptions to those that claim identity to some group--it is no wonder Nemonoman found it worrisome. He claims Parsis emigrated from Persia hundreds of years ago, but according to "Lord Meher" (page 117ff), even in the 19th century Zoroastrians lived in Persia, oppressed--so what should Zoroastrian emigrants going to India around that time be named if not Parsi? Even if you were to not consider Sheriar a Parsi at this point, I find it much more difficult to believe that all of the people, hundreds, connected and close to Meher Baba did not object, find fault with, but rather even published that his family were Parsis and his father Persian, and furthermore thus by extension (as done by nearly everyone) Merwan was Persian, at least in part. Lastly, the dictionary Merriam-Webster defines Parsi as "a Zoroastrian descended from Persian refugees settled principally at Bombay". If this definition is to be taken as definitive, then the argument is merely about what Meher Baba's (biological) ethnicity is and by which characteristic it is to be taken, if not both, namely, national or ethnic (by this I suggest either cultural, biological, or geographic identity, or a combination thereof). The national identity is questionable for the reason that a) Persia became Iran, i.e. a different nation, and b) Meher Baba seemed not to care, nor were the governments he dealt with particular about it. [2] Though this may not be a final argument, I believe it is suggestive of Meher Baba's identity as Persian, in part for he is also Indian. If there is true merit in this claim, then to delete every occurrence of Meher Baba as Persian is a violence to the other perspectives of reality not limited to considering people merely according to nationalities; one should at least consider appending such claims with the fact that among the community of people that were with Meher Baba, he was Persian, rather than deleting outright all mention of such. BeyondBeyond 09:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: According to "The God-Man" (p. 83) the Persian Consul in 1929 offered Meher Baba a passport (even without a signature) since "as a Persian subject he was entitled to have" one. He accepted this, though eventually, "as a British-born subject, Baba took a British passport"; British-born obviously means Indian, as he was born in India while the British ruled India.BeyondBeyond 07:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Judging by a comment on my talk page, clarification appears to be needed:

1. Among Zoroastrians, the terms Parsi and Irani are both religious qualifiers that denote an *Indian* *Zoroastrian* (or more correctly, a Zoroastrian originally of the Indian subcontinent). So, first and foremost, the terms imply community and religion. Present-day nationality (Indian, Pakistani, etc) is altogether irrelevant. These two Zoroastrian groups are distinguished by when they landed on the subcontinent: The Parsis did so over 1000 years ago, the Iranis during and after the 18th century.
2. Although this highly specific meaning of the term 'Irani' is not understood by anyone outside those two communities, Wikipedia distinguishes between the two groups of Indian Zoroastrians. Both Parsi and Irani have their own article, and both have their categories.

For this reason (and only this reason), *IF* Meher Baba was a Zoroastrian *THEN* he belongs in the Irani (but not Parsi) category because his father migrated (relatively) recently.

However, *IF* Baba's father was a Sufi (as it says in the article), *THEN* Meher Baba could not possibly have been a Zoroastrian (unless he converted, which he didn't), which disqualifies him from either category.

Note also that the Meher Baba article is already in Category:Sufi, thus again disqualifying it from inclusion in any of the Zoroastrian categories. The sentence "[his father was a] Zoroastrian who had been a wandering Sufi" is likewise contradictory. Meher Baba's father cannot have been a Zoroastrian and a Sufi. He also cannot have been a Zoroastrian and a mystic, since Zoroastrianism has no mystics, mendicants, ascetics, or monks (would contradict the philosophy).

-- Fullstop 17:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It is admittedly an enigma that Meher Baba's father Sheriar is referred to both as a Zoroastrian and a Sufi Dervish. But this fact is well explained (as strange as it may be) in Bhau Kalchuri's Lord Meher and in Kevin shepherd's book From Oppression to Freedom: A Study of the Kaivani Gnostics. It may be precisely because of what you say, that there are no mystics, mendicants, or ascentics in Zoroastrianism that Sheriar chose the to practice an Islamic mystic path. However, to say that he would have had to convert back to Zoroastrianism once he had a family in India would only be true had he officially converted to Islam, which he did not. After his marriage he rejoined his Irani community in Pune and was a householder and followed all Zoroastrian practices. Thus he could be said to have returned to his roots. Also, Meher Baba wore the sacred Zoroastrian thread all his life inside his garments. I'm not sure what it is called. Also Meher Baba always signed his name M.S. Irani and never Meher Baba. Certainly one could say that Meher Baba and his father were somewhat 'outrageous' Zoroastrians, but I think they were Zoroastrian nonetheless. Chris 19:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

aaah, that explains a great deal. I suggest the addition of a footnote in the article to explain this. Perhaps something along these lines:

1. change the line

"a Persian Zoroastrian who had been a wandering Sufi dervish before settling in Pune"

to "wandering mendicant^[a] before settling in Pune"

2. followed up a note at the end of the article that reads:

a. ^{^}  as explained in Bhau Kalchuri's Lord Meher and in Kevin Shepherd's From Oppression to Freedom: A Study of the Kaivani Gnostics, Sheriar Irani's personal philosophy incorporated elements from both Zoroastrianism and Sufi mysticism; before becoming a householder in Pune, Sheriar had spent some time as wandering Sufi dervish. His son, Meher Baba, likewise acknowledged both philosophies and wore the Zoroastrian Sudra (a muslin undershirt) and the 72-thread Kusti girdle all his life.

-- Fullstop 08:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

btw: In my previous note, I forgot to mention that the surname 'Irani' is adopted (by the later Zoroastrian immigrants, and only by them) for legal and communal reasons. Sheriar was then not born with 'Irani' as a last name, and would originally have had his father's firstname as a surname. Inversely, in Indian Zoroastrian tradition, which goes back to the days before family names were introduced by the British, the middle name is always the father's first name, so if you know a person's middle name, you know the name of the father.

-- Fullstop 08:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Fullstop, This added explanatory information is pure gold. I don't personally know how to add it to the Meher Baba article yet, but I am going to move this information (as much as I can fit) into the Sheriar Irani article now. Chris 14:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Books about Meher Baba

I removed the following book from the "Books about Meher Baba" heading:

• Investigating the Sai Baba Movement: A Clarification of Misrepresented Saints and Opportunism by Kevin R.D. Shepherd. Citizen Initiative (2005) ISBN 0952508931. Contains substantive new biographical evaluation of Meher Baba from his period at Sakori with Upasni Maharaj to his death in 1969. Illustrated with many hitherto unfamiliar photographs of Meher Baba, from the author's own collection.

While it is valuable to know about books that mention Meher Baba and give his life context, "Investigating the Sai Baba Movement" is predominantly about Sathya Sai Baba. Kevin Shepherd has done a lot of valuable research on the subject of Indian masters and the book of his that deals particularly with Meher Baba, "Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal," has already been included. If there is material in the book that you feel adds valuable context to Baba's life and mission, then please include that information in the body of the article. Thanks. Chris 14:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The title is potentially misleading, I agree, especially as the book is also advertised as a revision of Shepherd's "Gurus Rediscovered", his early biographies of Shirdi Sai Baba and Upasni Maharaj. Nevertheless, I can't agree that Meher Baba is merely mentioned. A quantitative analysis of the contents reveals:

• Sai Baba of Shirdi: major section of 79 pages incl. notes, 1 photo
• Upasni Maharaj: major section of 44 pages incl. notes, 7 photos
• Meher Baba: major section of 119 pages incl. notes, 48 photos
• Sathya Sai Baba: 3 appendices of 31 pages incl. notes, no photo

The Meher Baba total is considerably higher than indicated here, since he features in both the Shirdi Sai Baba and Upasni Maharaj biographies (particularly the latter). Nor is the lion's share a simple revision of material from "Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal". Perhaps you will change your mind when you have had the opportunity to read the book. Cheers, Naqshandy 11:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you begin a new section under "Bibliography" called something like "Books that mention Meher Baba" or "Books including Meher Baba" as "Investigating the Sai Baba Movement" is obviously not a "book about Meher Baba" as the category says. I tried to order the book through interlibrary loan, but got a letter from my library that no lending library could supply the book. Amazon.com and Barnes and Noble don't have the book. However, the book is available on Amazon.co.uk. Chris 20:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Meher Baba is one of the four gurus shown on the front page of the book. Andries 20:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that works. Chris 21:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

re: "false," "unnatural" sanskaras

I removed the "false" before sanskaras in one section. Since all sanskaras by definition can't but be already Mayavic, classifying them as "false sanskaras" (which implies there are also "true sanskaras") is misleading. Unless one wants to get into the whole "vidnyani sanskaras" issue...

I changed "unnatural" to "non-natural" sanskaras since that's the terminology Baba actually used (or at least approved) in the Disourses. http://discoursesbymeherbaba.org/v1-55.php "Unnatural" has all sorts of moralistic connotations which don't help clarify the issue, since even very "moral" actions can still produce non-natural sanskaras, etc.

Recent Reversion

Recent edits by 61.68.2.157 violate Wikipedia's NPOV, remove documented events and people without cause, and offer no new verifiable information.

"Being of beings"

Where did Meher Baba say that the avatar is the "Being of beings"? I can't find this anywhere. Please go to section "The Avatar" and include a source or remove the quote. It may very well be that he said this, but couldn't find it in "God Speaks," "Discourses," or on the Web.

I'm not concerned whether that phrase is in the article or not (IMHO, it's prone to misreading & too Heideggerian-sounding anyway!), but the phrase "Being of all Beings" is used in Eruch's story "Who Is Meher Baba?" (in _That's How It Was_, p. 157), maybe elsewhere too? Hdtnkrwll 02:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Promotional Brochure?

This article needs much work to make it sound more like an encyclopedia entry rather than a promotion by followers. Many of the statements are incomprehensible to the average person looking for information on Meher Baba, such as "Perfect Master." The English-speaking and largely Christian community who reads this site will not understand any of these mystical terms. Try to look at it as an encyclopedia entry, not a book written by Baba's ashramites.--Mylitta 07:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition to linking of a term, the term can be shortly described in brackets in this article. Andries 20:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Problems with Recent Revisions

The following are some of the problelms with recent revisions:

1. The name Hafez was changed to Hafiz. While this is in keeping with Meher Baba's spelling of Hafiz, note that on Wikipedia Hafiz does not link to the medievel Persian poet, but Hafez is the Wikipedia spelling for the poet.
2. The next change was from "quoting freely from all the holy books" to "quoting freely from those traditions." I'm not sure you can "quote" from a tradition.
3. The change to "the four perfect masters of the age" violates Wikipedia's policy of NPOV. You would have to say, according to... or give a citation.
4. The change from "Subsequently, he went without food or drink" to "Thereafter..." isn't as good as the first word. The word "thereafter" generally refers to an ongoing condition. The inclusion of the word "reportedly" was a good idea.
5. The new wording, "Later he contacted the 'perfect masters' Sai Baba of Shirdi and Sadguru Upasni Maharaj of Sakori..." gives the appearance that "perfect master" and "sadguru" are two different things, and makes it appear that Sai Baba was not a sadguru. The earlier version, simply calling them both "perfect masters" was much clearer. You could substitute the word "perfect master" with "sadguru" and that would be just as good.
6. Adding "sadguru" to the next paragraph is redundant.
7. The newly added line, "He also indicated that his silence served a salvific effect, similar in signifigance to Christ's cruxifiction." as far as I know, is simply false. If Baba said this, it ought to have a citation. If not, then it is POV.
8. The change to "Baba met with interested individuals who had heard of his spiritual status and his work in India, many of these were celebrities and artists..." is improper sentence structure. The word "whom" that was there before was correct. You could, however, make two sentences. But it isn't clear what this improves. It was a very clear sentence before.
9. The reference to Ghandi being allowed by Baba to read his "book" is unclear. While Baba insiders might know what book this refers to, it is not clear enough for an Encyclopedic article.
10. Next two changes are excellent. "Various" and "many" are good changes.
11. "each drop soul evolves through experience of each form in the seven kingdoms of evolution." This is incorrect. Souls evolve consciousness, but souls do not evolve.
12. "This development is accomplished through the accumulation of innumerable impressions, or sanskaras, which adhere to the drop soul as it experiences creation." Nowhere does Meher Baba say that sanskaras "adhere" to the soul. The soul is infinite and eternal, according to Meher Baba. It is one with Paramatma actually and sanskaras are imagination. The word "adhere" means To stick fast by or as if by suction or glue (Dictionary.com).
13. The sentence "Many who attended this darshan have commented on the palpable feeling of Baba's presence" sounds subjective, reads like propaganda (see first comment top of this page), and has no citation.

Point 11 above is well taken. But, how do you concisely detail evolution/involution in this small section without having to introduce the mental body? If you do, then you're stuck explaining the subtle and gross bodies as well (i.e. you open a barrel of monkeys).

Likewise with 12 and the same problem in addressing it arises. I guess my own reading of Meher Baba on this topic lead me to the conclusion that the drop-soul is Paramatma+a mental body (which is nothing but the accumulation of sanskaras). From that perspective, I think it works as it is. (i.e. the drop-soul "evolves") From a strict advaita standpoint this won't fly, but I think avoiding adding the bodies into this section is desirable. Adhere has been changed to accrete. Better?

"Which accrete to" has been changed to "acquired by." Not sure that's an improvement. My reading sees this process as more passive than "acquired by" suggests.

In the "Discourses" Meher Baba uses the words "accumulation" and "forging new sanskaras" and "creating further sanskaras." Sanskaras are close to what we in the west would call trace memories. Thus we could use any word that would fit such a psychological concept, e.g. accumulate, acquire, forge, gather, create, form, etc. The important thing is not to see sanskaras as independent entities or metaphysical objects.

POV

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but please try to keep contributions limited to facts or citable facts about other's beliefs or opinions according to Wikipediai's policy on NPOV (neutral point of view). Sam Spade 11:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Matter, Energy, Mind...

With all respect to keeping articles encyclopedic, I think that for many readers or seekers, Meher Baba's "cosmology" of Mind, Energy, Matter would be a very interesting and enlightening issue to find in this article. It's like not mentioning the Energy, Mass, Light Speed Constant equation in Albert Einstein's entry. I have to take it that for those working on this article, it may indeed be like opening a barrel of monkeys, but it would still be an important contribution for those trying to understand the nature of the Universe and looking at what various sciences, religions and spiritual paths have to say on it. This would also define some basic concepts, before one comes to the mentioning of gross, subtle and mental sanskaras, which may be mystifying as it stands. Otherwise I find this article quite good and not like a promotion by followers. Yet it may be for such ommissions that it gives to some this feeling. On the one hand I wouldn't like to find in an encyclopedia a note telling me that if I want to learn what this person said I should read his books. On the other, I wouldn't like to run into some jargon that only those who have already studied his books can understand. I think a very good source text for such a progressive outline of terms is in the Discourses, under Meditation, The Divine Truths. I also think that various books of Baba speak to various kinds of mentalities. In an encyclopedia, every kind of mentality should find what it's looking for. If under Cosmology, in this article, you only find mention of the soul's journey to self-awareness, it may be that the structuring of the article has gaps that leave people with the feeling of having run into jargon. I hope my remarks have not upset anyone and that this article can still be improved to reach the quality it deserves (like the Bahai entry for example). If I can help you in any way, please, let me know in my discussion page. I'll be glad to contribute.

Hoverfish 20:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This thing you're talking about is a very hard thing to do. But feel free to try. First of all, Wikipedia frowns on POV and original research so to interpret Baba's teaching in different words becomes difficult to do without becoming controversial. You would need to site sources. If you could do it well though, I think people would be thrilled. Another option is to quote a lot from Discourses or God Speaks, but that has problems too... too wordy, copyright violation, etc. Perhaps a new article could be created on just this subject. There is already a page for God Speaks and that might be a good place to go into depth. Another option is to create a new page for The Discourses or one on his Cosmology itself.

Sam Spade 23:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Meher Baba as Parsi

Please see the lengthy exhausting discussions above on this subject. My understanding is that the words Parsi and Irani refer to different periods of migration of Zoroastrians from what is now Iran. The earlier migration were called Parsis. People who immigrated later are called Iranis. Both of Baba's parents migrated with the second Irani group, and thus his last name "Irani" from his father. So to call him a Parsi is technically wrong, even if it's right in spirit and well intended. Also, in fact Baba was born in India before 1948 so he was actually a British subject. So it is very hard to call him one thing. Indian isn't quite right, but partially; Irani refers to his parental line and his last name, and British actually refers to his birth certificate. He also had an Irani passport. To reduce all this to the word "Parsi" is at least incomplete, and at worst totally incaccurate, since the meaning of Parsi refers to a different sub-group of immigrants. Therefore, due to the long debates in the past which seemed to end rather peacefully with the compromise of "Iranian-Indian" I've reverted it to that. Also, note that in the categories section it includes him as | Indian religious figures | Persian people | Iranis | Parsis -- so all bases are covered and everyone ought to be hopefully happy. Thanks for understanding.

Meher Baba was born of an Indian Mother and a father who had left Persia at age 13, and lived the next 2/3s+ of his life in India before his son Meher Baba was born. Since Meher Baba was an Indian native who lived all his life in India, was born of an Indian mother and a naturalized Indian father (from Persia, which only much later became called Iran), I think it is therefore absolutely essential that he be identified as Iranian. Anything less than this does dishonor to the noble Iranian people.--72.192.144.119 05:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Silent communication

Didn't Baba originally use chalk and slate to communicate? It runs in my mind that he wore a slate around his neck during the first days of his silence, and that some mandali member created the alphabet board. ???? Somebody with better resources than me could review tales of the early days, maybe??--Nemonoman 15:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in the online Lord Meher it mentions the chalk and slate several times, mostly between pages 738-742.

"From that day on for several months, Baba had a new companion; constantly with him was a young boy named Bal to whom he had taken a liking. Bal, an Arangaon village boy, would accompany the Master around Meherabad with a pencil and paper, or chalk and slate so that Baba could convey whatever he wished." (p. 738) [3] Chris 18:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Avatar claim

As per recent changes, Meher Baba said he was "the" Avatar, and not "an" Avatar. There are 32 references to this in his biography, published in 1986 and now online. [4] Whether or not he truly was is irrelavent to the article, as it is at least an encyclopedic fact that he said that he was.