Talk:Megabyte

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Discussion about centralization took place at Talk:Binary prefix.

Contents 1 Establish a Convention? (April 2002) 2 Binary million -vs- decimal million (Dec 2004) 3 Megabytes in Use" Useful? (June 2005) 4 Regarding "Adoption by the NIST" (Oct 2005) 5 Usage objection 6 POV

[edit] Establish a Convention? (April 2002)

We need to establish a convention for Wikipedia about the word "megabyte" because of the conflicting definitions, or else we cannot ever use the word. Should we go with SI, i.e. 10⁶ bytes, and then use the new MiB for 2²⁰ bytes? AxelBoldt, Friday, April 26, 2002

If we accept this convention for the word "megabyte", we then should do the same for "kilobyte", i.e. 10³ bytes and kiB for 2¹⁰ bytes, too. I know children look rather confused when I explain to them that km is a 1000 m, while kB is 1024 bytes, because computers work better with binary numbers... Maria Renee Jenkins, Sunday, April 28, 2002

It is our task to follow standards, not ignore them. The plain reality is, majority usage for MB is the binary MB, and I ain't talking about a small majority either. The fact that "there are 1024 somethingorothers in a KB" is one of the very few things that Joe Average computer user really does understand. And where did this Wikipedia "policy" come from all of a sudden? It's a really bad idea. Tannin 13:18, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I picked the "policy" since after my question above, nobody expressed an opinion either way for quite some time. The policy does not ignore standards, but follows them. I agree with your assessment of majority usage, but I don't think it is a large majority: the average computer user encounters megabytes in four contexts:

• hard drive capacity
• memory size
• file size
• bandwidth

Decimal megabytes are used in two of the four contexts. If you prefer we pick the opposite policy, then you need to invent a name for 10⁶ bytes, and you need to make the case why Wikipedia should ignore international standards in favor of this new name. AxelBoldt 17:14, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)

These are all good reasons to not take sides by pretending that one of the two major meanings of the word doesn't exist or is wrong. Rather, when the difference matters, be explicit about the usage of the term. --Brion 17:49, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't think that the sentence "This is the definition used in Wikipedia" pretends that the other meaning doesn't exist or is wrong; it just fixes a convention to avoid having to change many links from "megabyte" to "megabyte (i.e. 10⁶ bytes)" or "megabyte (i.e. 2²⁰ bytes)". But I can live with that as well. AxelBoldt 09:29, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Proclaiming one to be the only definition used here would seem to require tracking down all uses of the term, deciding for sure which meaning was meant (possibly requiring further research), and either leaving it or changing it to "mebibyte". Letting normal usage stand allows further clarification where details are known and relevant. --Brion 09:38, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

A vote has been started on whether Wikipedia should use these prefixes all the time, only in highly technical contexts, or never. - Omegatron 14:50, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Binary million -vs- decimal million (Dec 2004)

After some double-checking and extensive web searching, it appears that the overwhelming majority consider a MegaByte to be a binary million, i.e. 10^20. As far as I can see, only hard drive and floppy drive manufacturers use a decimal million (10^6), primarily for marketing/misleading reasons. example. I've worked in IT for 10 years, and I've never even heard of a Mebibyte. Regards, --Rebroad 19:58, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Just realised that this article has been misleading since May 2003 (see) when the more commonly used usage was moved to 2nd in the list. --Rebroad 20:06, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This was pretty clearly not NPOV, reproducing the "it's a conspiracy by hard drive manufacturers" line. I've added some unambiguous cases--for instance, the CD standard uses base 2, whereas the DVD standards use base 10. I've also tried to make it clear that hard drive manufacturers almost always use base 10, while OS software and humans mostly use base 2. As a final note, I've added a comment about MHz to go along with the discussion of Mb, making it clear that although people measure RAM capacity in base-2, they measure RAM speed in base 10. Now, can we all switch to SI and stop being needlessly confusing? Please? Metamatic 21:05, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nooo! We must adamantly resist all attempts to correct that which we have grown comfortable with!  :-)

“Megabytes have always been base 2, and always been written as MB”, they sneer. “Everyone knows that 1MB is 1024KB, unless you’re talking about DVDs, or reading manufacturer specs for a hard drive, and that’s just the hard drive manufacturers being stupid. Everyone knows that ‘K’ on a computer means 1024; except for speeds, where it means 1000, except for file download speeds where it means 1024, except when it’s the speed of your modem, when it’s 1000. Everyone knows that. What, are you stupid?” [1] - Omegatron 15:33, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

News flash -- majority rules.

Number of users of Microsoft Windows (where MB= 1,024 KB and KB= 1,024 bytes) and similar computing environments: in the millions (or billions). Number of crusaders advocating "kibibytes", etc.: in the thousands (maybe). Number of people who actually consistently refer to binary byte sizes as a "Mebibyte": maybe a couple hundred?

I refer you to earlier comments; for example:

• "After some double-checking and extensive web searching, it appears that the overwhelming majority consider a MegaByte to be a binary million [1,024 KB]...";
• "not yet accepted and are simply ignored by ...This is the reality. Hardly anyone uses mebis. " ; etc.

- Liberty 23:34, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Megabytes in Use" Useful? (June 2005)

I don't think the "Megabytes in Use" section is very useful, particularly the part about a megaybte storing roughly one book, 100 small images, or 1 minute of audio. Given that books come in all sizes, designs, and point sizes, this comparison is virtually useless. 100 small images? How small? JPEG? GIF? PNG? TIFF? 1 minute of audio as mp3 at 128kbit is indeed roughly 1 MB. As a WAV file, it's 10 MB however. I think this part should either be removed or replaced with a more clearly defined standard of measurement. pogo, June 2005

It should either be presented as "very roughly" or else made more specific, like saying 128kbit/s as you said. - Omegatron 02:45, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding "Adoption by the NIST" (Oct 2005)

A definition of the IEC proposal on the NIST does not, in itself, constitute advocacy of adoption, nor does it necessarily represent an official endorsement of the standard.

I refer you to the actual text appearing on the single page at the NIST that touches on the topic [2] (which, incidently, has an unclear authorship date). For example (emphasis mine):

"... the IEEE Standards Board decided that IEEE standards will use the conventional, internationally adopted, definitions of the SI prefixes. Mega will mean 1 000 000, except that the base-two definition may be used (if such usage is explicitly pointed out on a case-by-case basis) until such time that prefixes for binary multiples are adopted by an appropriate standards body."

I'd be interested in any references to actual, recent, implemented use of the newer terms in NIST activities... Just as a point of reference, note also that NIST is a non-regulatory federal agency... - Liberty 04:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• IEEE
  • Standard: IEEE 1541-2002, IEEE Standard for Prefixes for Binary Multiples
    • "1541-2002 (SCC14) IEEE Trial-Use Standard for Prefixes for Binary Multiples [No negative comments received during trial-use period, which is now complete; Sponsor requests elevation of status to full-use.] Recommendation: Elevate status of standard from trial-use to full-use. Editorial staff will be notified to implement the necessary changes. The standard will be due for a maintenance action in 2007." IEEE-SA STANDARDS BOARD STANDARDS REVIEW COMMITTEE (RevCom) MEETING AGENDA 19 March 2005
    • "1541-2002 IEEE Standard for Prefixes for Binary Multiples (Upgraded to full use from trial use)" [3]
• NIST
  • "The IEC has adopted prefixes for binary multiples in International Standard IEC 60027-2, Second edition, 2000-11, Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology—Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics. ... Although these prefixes are not part of the SI, they should be used in the field of information technology to avoid the incorrect usage of the SI prefixes." NIST Special Publication 330 2001 Edition The International System of Units (SI)
  • "Because the SI prefixes strictly represent powers of 10, they should not be used to represent powers of 2. Thus, one kilobit, or 1 kbit, is 1000 bit and not 2¹⁰ bit = 1024 bit. To alleviate this ambiguity, prefixes for binary multiples have been adopted by the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) for use in information technology." nist.gov
  • "The new prefixes will eliminate the present confusion between powers of 1000 and powers of 1024 since in the field of information technology the SI prefix names and symbols for decimal multiples are now often used to represent binary multiples." News briefs Section 1.9
  • "With significant input from the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the IEC adopted kibi (Ki), mebi (Mi), gibi (Gi), tebi (Ti), pebi (Pi) and exbi (Ei) to represent exponentially increasing binary multiples. A kibibyte, therefore, equals 2 to the 10th power, or 1,024 bytes. Likewise a mebibyte equals 2 to the 20th power, or 1,048,576 bytes. The new prefixes for binary multiples, which parallel the metric prefixes, will increase precision in expressing electronic information." Representative's Report - April 1999

Sounds like an endorsement to me... — Omegatron 04:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The facts on the ground are that the largest OSes (Microsoft's, POSIX (Unix, BSD, Linux, OS X...) use the binary system, and this it the computer arena where people most often come in contact with these metrics. At some (most?) CPUs run at binary-based speeds, e.g. the first 65c02 was 1.024 MHz, as I recall. Changed the page to reflect that.

That's a decimal speed. A binary speed would be something like "1 MHz" = 1.024 MHz. — Omegatron 23:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The claim that "Linux uses binary" is false in its generality. The kernel boot messages refer to disk sizes in decimal units, fdisk uses decimal units, etc.

Why is there a link to a picture of flies having sex?

[edit] Usage objection

Someone inserted and someone reverted:

"Because of a traditional inconsistency, "megabytes" are often intended to mean mebibytes in common speech. This usage is not recommended as it creates confusion (see below) and has been facing increasing opposition by many technical standards and legal entities in the past few years."

Let's discuss this before putting it back in production. I'll state my objects to the addition first:

1. I think the entire addition is worded and structured poorly.

a. "Because of a traditional inconsistency" seems very vague and imprecise. Maybe it should be, "Because it has meant different things to different industries"

b. ""megabytes" are often intended to mean mebibytes in common speech. again seems vague and also seems to be a conclusion that should have a citation. I would suggest something like, ""megabyte" can mean either "megabyte" or "mebibyte" when used in common speech and even technical specifications."

c. "This usage is not recommended". What is "this usage"? Does this mean the term "megabyte" should not be used? Or does this mean "megabyte" should not be used when the speaker means, "mebibyte"?

d. "has been facing increasing opposition by many technical standards and legal entities". I think "increasing opposition" is a little extreme. The SI definition and the "mebi" prefix for the binary calculation are gaining support in various technical and international standards, but opposition implies something more.

2. Some parts of the addition seem speculative or make conclusions.

a. ""megabytes" are often intended to mean mebibytes in common speech.". Where is the evidence that this is the case? And what is "common speech"? Common to computer technicians, photo-journalists, and stamp collectors talking about system RAM, the size of the DVD rip they pulled of the web, or how much disk space they have left on their iPod?

b. "This usage is not recommended". Not recommended by whom? NIST, IBM, NASA, GAO, EU, UN? Certainly an encyclodedia isn't making such a recommendation.

The entire addition seems to be an objection to the use of megabyte with supporting argument. It's taking a position and promoting a particular POV. It might be a common POV, but "common" isn't necessarily "neutral". I vote to strike the edit. --JJLatWiki 16:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this is the best version:

The usage of "megabytes" is ambiguous, as they can mean either 1000 (the technically accurate definition) or 1024 submultiples (a "mebibyte"). The confusion originated as compromise technical jargon for the byte multiples, that needed to be expressed by the powers of 2 but lacked convenient naming. As 1024 (2^10) is roughly equal to 1000 (10^3), rougly corresponding SI multiples began to be used as approximate binary multiples. However, in the past few years a number of technical standards and legal entities (IEC, IEEE, EU, etc.) have addressed this ambiguity and discouraged the use of "megabyte" as a synonym for a "mebibyte" by promoting the "mebibyte" (MiB) instead. This shift is reflected in an increasing number of software projects, but most file managers still show file sizes as "megabytes" ("MB").

If you don't like it, please don't just delete it, but improve it.

72.36.245.34 07:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I've again removed the sentence "So, technically, it is the operating system that creates the confusion, rather than the hard disk vendor." This sentence implies that the hard disk vendor is more correct than the operating system vendor in their choice of units, which cannot be established without the implied POV that the SI units are better than binary units. JulesH 14:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I weakly disagree. "better" would imply POV, but "technically" is neutral. Based on the current standard of "Mebi", "Gibi", etc, and the fact that kilo and mega meant 1000 and 1000000 long before computer programmers inappropriately used them to describe 1024 and 1024^2, I would have to argue that the sentence is technically correct. I would also argue that the hard disk vendors ARE more correct. Mega meant 1000000 long before it ever meant 1024^2, and rather than create an appropriate abbreviation for 1024^2, programmers decided to use mega for almost (but not quite) everything. So drive vendors have at least a couple hundred years of history to support there usage and even some scattered support within modern non-disk related, computing history. OS vendors have a few decades of spotty support for their use of mega, which is entirely (that I know of) isolated to their niche. I don't like the way the sentence sounds, but technically it is correct. --JJLatWiki 21:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the replacement sentence you've put in works a lot better. Thanks. JulesH 23:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)