Wikipedia talk:Media help

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Contents


[edit] Wikipedia helps OGG

I hope you do realize that Wikipedia helps distribute OGG codecs and players to a lot of people. Maybe a call for media files in order to have a "Sound file of the day" or "Video of the day" feature would help spread OGG even further. After all, isn't this one of the points Jimmy Wales talked about in Frankfurt this week?! --Hullbr3ach 19:44, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, and this is one of the main reasons I contribute sound files. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:10, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

Since I've started putting up videos, I've gone ahead and rewritten this page. I need people who are familiar with ogg vorbis/theora on Mac and Linux/Unix to add instructions for getting it working on those platforms as well.

Remember, only list players here that will work with *any* .ogg file (that is, it should work with both vorbis and theora). →Raul654 18:17, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

According to the article one is for sound while the other is for video. Some people are interested in one but not the other. A-giau 03:42, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Vorbis is for sound, Theora is for video, and both use .ogg as their extension. Rather than hoping our viewers are knowledgable to tell the difference between them, we'll just do the very easy thing and limit our recommendations to players that can do *all* ogg files. →Raul654 23:01, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Material intended specifically for Wikipedia editors should appear elsewhere

There already is a page whose purpose is to teach Wikipedia editors how to make media files. It is located here:

Wikipedia:Sound

This article, Wikipedia:Media help, is meant not for editors but for readers--and that includes people who aren't computer experts. For this reason, we should keep Wikipedia:Media help as short as possible, and written in very plain language.

I recommend that people with the relevant expertise update Wikipedia:Sound and rename it Wikipedia:Media, in parallel with the history of this page.

The material I just removed, which I hope will soon be integrated into Wikipedia:Sound or Wikipedia:Media, is repeated below.

Opus33 16:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

==Making oggs==
===Video===
Because most popular movie/audio formats are patented and require a royalty, there are no free all purpose video converters.
* For video, ffmpeg2theora is a command line encoder capable of converting numerous file formats (.mov, .mpg, .mpeg, .avi) into Ogg Theora. It works on Windows, Macintosh, and Linux/Unix.
*You can also use the encoder_example application included with libtheora in combination with a program like MPlayer [1] that is capable of dumping raw (yuv4mpeg) video and sound to encode in Ogg Theora.
*For assistance with conversion, try contacting:
**Raul654
**brian0918 (Windows only)
===Audio===
* For audio, Audacity is a high quality sound editor for Windows, Macintosh, and Linux/Unix. To use Audacity on mp3s, it requires that you install LAME.
**Lame download page for Windows
**Lame download page for Macintosh
*The command-line tool mpg321, based on libmad is a free mp3 decoder that can be used to play or decode mp3 files. The result can be encoded into Ogg Vorbis using oggenc or another vorbis-enabled encoder.
For technical assistance with conversion, try contacting:
** The Uninvited Co., Inc.

[edit] Videos work!

The videos work great on Mac and Linux! Thanks! --Gmaxwell 04:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

They also work great in Windows if you hunt down the right codecs... I had to anyways, so it was another good reason to find them. - Thekittenofterra 08:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] xine should get mentioned

IMHO xine should be mentioned before totem, since totem is only an alternative frontend for the xinelib. kaffeine as KDE frontend should also get mentioned, since there are enough distributions with KDE. The default player in debian and SuSE do play theora already out of the box.

Does anyone know why the mimetype is ogg and not ogm for movies ? ogg let start the pure sound player usually while ogm would let start a video player.

I asked around before writing this page, and that was one of the questions I asked. I'm told that Ogm is for files with mpeg video and ogg vorbis audio. Mpeg, being patented, is unusable on Wikipedia; therefore, no ogm files on Wikipedia. Ogg is used for files that include theora video, vorbis audio, or both. →Raul654 17:43, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Winamp

Yes, it only plays Vorbis files. However, wouldn't it be helpful to include it and specify its limitation? Since it is so popular, people will inevitably wonder why it isn't on the list. -Willmcw 22:08, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Here's the crux of the problem. Winamp will tend to associate .ogg files (which can be either Theora or Vorbis) with itself, and people will inevitably download Theora files, play them in in the default player (winamp), and wonder why it is busted. Next, they'll click on the 'media help' link, come here, see winamp on the list of files, and wonder why it doesn't work. (You're assuming they are competent enough to launch a different player when they happen to see the movie file icon - you must be very optomistic) My solution is simply not to list it. If you can think of something better, please suggest it. →Raul654 22:12, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
Even if we don't say anything about Winamp the above scenarios is still likely for those who already have Winamp on their system. Why not add what you just explained? That would seem to provide more "help" than just omitting all reference to it. -Willmcw (01:39, May 19, 2005 (UTC))
Winamp will be the most common program people will have for playing oggs. I imagine that because of bandwidth limitations the number of audio files will greatly surpass the number the video files. With this in mind I think it is counterproductive to pretend that winamp doesn't play oggs. With ogg support in itunes broken with QT7 winamp is as close to the mainstream as ogg gets. Secretlondon 20:16, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I have no problem listing winamp here, if and when it supports natively (or can be made to support) both theora and vorbis. Until that time, I think we can make due with the ones already listed here that are capable of doing both, and save ourselves the headache of providing tech support to hundreds or thousands of people who can't figure out why their ogg file won't play in winamp. →Raul654 22:11, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
There is currently a paragraph which reads:
It is highly recommended that you use a program which is capable of playing both Ogg Vorbis and Ogg Theora files. The reason is that both files use the same file extension, namely .ogg.
How about adding, Programs which can only play Ogg Vorbis files, such as Winamp, will still attempt to load Ogg Theora files but will fail to play them. Would that cover the topic? -Willmcw 03:26, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Winamp is capable of playing Theora files. Just install the directshow filters from [2], then go to winamp preferences, go to Input (under Plug-ins), select Nullsoft Directshow Decoder and click the Configure button, and add ";OGG" to the list of extensions, and click OK. Now Winamp can play theora files. Reference: [3]. --pile0nadestalk | contribs 22:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Indeed this does work in my WinAmp 5.1 'full' (free). Except it kind of breaks playing Vorbis files, as they go through the DirectShow filter, not WinAmp's own input plug-in which provides tag reading, which does things like enable the Media Library to pick them and order them correctly. Does someone need to make a Theora input for WinAmp...?

I just spent the better part of the last hour trying to reproduce that, to no effect. Nullsoft directshow is not included with Winamp (or at least the version I use, lite) by default. I spent quite a bit of time hunting it down [4] and trying to find out if that version (.94) is the newest version (which I was unable to do). I followed the rest of the directions, and it failed to play. →Raul654 22:45, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Well, it works for me with the full version which comes with it. --pile0nadestalk | contribs 22:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
What version of Nullsoft directshow are you using? →Raul654 22:49, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
v0.94, which is the latest version, as it comes with the latest version of Winamp, v5.094. --pile0nadestalk | contribs 22:54, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok, that's what I have. So I've followed the advice down the line, and it's not working. I asked in IRC, and user:FreplySpang (who has a non-lite version) tried it and failed too. We shouldn't be recommending this unless it's actually reliable and reproducable. →Raul654 23:02, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's weird. I don't know why it would'nt work for you. --pile0nadestalk | contribs 23:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I followed the same steps as both of them and failed to get ogg files to play on my winamp, i am also using the most current version of winamp with the most current plugins

I used the above advice for Nullsoft with the newest Winamp and XP Pro AND Illuminable's OGG Codecs installed and voila! I could now cue up those H-Bomb test videos, complete with Stravinsky (I think) music. It saved me the bother of downloading WMP 10!

[edit] RealPlayer and HelixPlayer

It might be a good idea to mention RealPlayer and HelixPlayer for UNIX because they are much easier to install than VLC, XINE and MPlayer. They can play both Vorbis and Theora out-of-the-box on UNIX platforms and are available as precompiled binaries that work on all Linux distributions. There are plugins for the Windows version as well, but it's not necessary to mention it because DirectShow is easier to use.

http://www.real.com/linux https://helixcommunity.org https://player.helixcommunity.org/2004/downloads

-- 217.246.179.19 21:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Real player is the ABSOLUTE WORST video player in existance. I will absolutely not recommend that trash on anyone. →Raul654 21:33, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
I completely agree. Also; the original statement is incorrect. Because Realplayer is non-free software, it is very hard to get it to work in most Unixes. VLC is far easier to get working, since it pretty much consists of one package, with no extra shit to make it work. --CalPaterson 21:22, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Video in articles

I just uploaded some video (Image:La pluie a Bamako-debut juin.avi.ogg), and now I would like to know how I can include this in articles... Guaka 00:30, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Use the video template. See Apollo 17 for an example. →Raul654 01:08, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Isn't there a more integrated way? It would be cool to have a little box with a play button, so that it's more like an image that is on the page itself. Guaka 02:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Um, no, all images on Wikipedia redirect to their respective image pages. It is (almost) impossible to create a picture that, when you click on it, goes anywhere but its own image page. →Raul654 02:11, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] MIME type

The .ogg media files seem to be getting served as MIME type "application/octetstream". Isn't there a more specific MIME type for Ogg format? Anyway, isn't "application/octet-stream" supposed to have a dash in it?

Doing :about plugin in firefox with the vlc plugin installed shows "application/x-ogg". It'd be great if (1) we used that MIME type or something else that will make it work (2) we took the google video src code and made a wikimedia player... basically the same idea of VLC plugin installer but without the restrictions. -- Kowey 02:48, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The content type is now (the correct) application/ogg. However, it should probably be audio/vorbis for Ogg Vorbis when that type eventually gets registered (or maybe audio/x-vorbis in the mean time), and any equivalent type for the combination of Vorbis and Theora in Ogg.
--Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 19:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Easier wording and layout for non-techies

I think this page needs to be made as easy as possible for non-editing end users who may have limited profficiency at installing new applications. Terms like "codec" will confuse/scare many users and should be avoided. Perhaps it would be better to use terminoligy such as "you may need to install free software in order to play audio and video files on wikipedia".

The whole thing could do with a friendlier layout. Think about Wikipedia:Introduction. Could we not do something along these lines with three tabs: INTRODUCTION, AUDIO and VIDEO? The Macromedia Flash installation page is also a good example of balance between ease of use and technical information. TreveXtalk 11:56, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Done it. Any thoughts? TreveXtalk 13:19, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Very nice. I thought "Click here to install software" might be a little scary for people who are used to viruses and spam, so I changed it to "Directions on installing software". —Keenan Pepper 22:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New idea for videos

Before, when we started putting videos in articles, it was debated whether they should be inline or at the end. It was decided to put them at the end because that blocky video box breaks the flow. Well, I think I know how to go with the flow. Let's say you're doing someone's biography, and you have video of an important event in their life, so you want it to be next to the event in the text. What you do is take a screencapture of the video, upload that, place the image in the article next to the event's text, and in the caption of the image, say something like "Still shot from footage of the Wright Brother's flight. See here for the full video." That caption would provide a link to the video, maybe with some sort of mini icon in the caption to indicate that there is a film clip. In this way, the flow wouldn't be broken up anymore than an image breaks up the flow, and the article isn't left with a bunch of videos randomly clumped at the end. How does that sound? — BRIAN0918 • 2005-11-1 03:28

[edit] OGG

Why does Wikipedia use .ogg files? I can't run them on anything on my computer:

  • Windows Media Player? NO
  • RealPlayer? NO
  • Quicktime Player? NO

and so on. Why not use .mp3? --Thelb4 21:29, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I tried to download the RealPlayer extension, but it wouldn't even set up!! --Thelb4 21:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't use MP3 audio because the MP3 format is encumbered by patents, which make it impossible to legally encode MP3s with free software. Ogg Vorbis is guaranteed to be free of patents, and it's also technically superior. If you have a specific problem with the installation instructions, try to figure out what's wrong and make suggestions to improve the instructions, don't just whine. —Keenan Pepper 22:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
That's easy enough for you to say, Keenan Pepper. If those of us who can't get these dratted .ogg files to work could "figure out what's wrong" then we almost certainly wouldn't need any instructions in the first place. -- Picapica 20:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC) (standing up for the right to whine)
(To Thelb4) - Windows media player works just fine, just follow the directions on this page and install the codecs from illimunible. (To Picapica) We have directions here for every OS and are willing to work with people to solve their issues and/or make the directions more correct/intuitive/easy to follow. However, we will be doing so on *our* terms. To this end, one of the foundation's overriding goals is to make things Free (as in speech) and that means we must avoided patented formats. Raul654 21:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks for the speedy reply, Raul. It did inspire to make the umpteenth attempt, and, I am glad to say, this time successfully. The fly in the ointment proved to be "Once downloading has finished, run the setup program and follow the instructions on screen." I think some of you techies forget how profoundly ignorant some of us ordinary users are in IT matters. I can drive a car, but I haven't the faintest idea what it means when a mechanic tells me something like "all you have to do is advance the carburettor settings" (< I just made that up, btw; it probably doesn't make sense!). To people like me "Run the setup program and..." sounds horribly like "open the bonnet and..." -- when I don't even know where the bonnet catch is. It took me a fair amount of sweat, I can tell you, to find out just where that program was, let alone attempt to run it. However, I got there in the end. I don't think there is much danger of your insulting users by making instructions too easy to follow. Techies will recognize an idiot's guide as soon as they see one, and so won't even bother to read on. The rest of us will be very grateful. I retain the right to whine... but many thanks all the same. -- Picapica 21:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I have downloaded the ogg codecs installer from illiminable and ran the wizard. When finished, I started WMP10 and went to tools>options>file types. The ogg file types were not checked (ogg files [oga], [spx] and [ogv]). Each time I check them, and go back in, they are unchecked again. I cannot get ogg files to play. I'm using Win XP. Any ideas why this isn't straightforward? Bswee 18:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
    • It depends on how you are trying to play them. Assuming you are downloading them to your hard drive and double-clicking on the files, you have to make sure the files are properly associated with WMP. Go to any open folder, and then: tools->folder options->file types tab->ogg->advanced. (If there isn't one for ogg, create a new one by clicking "new"). THe default option (highlighted in black) is what happens when you double click on a file. Click the default option, then edit, then change the path to the WMP (c:\program files\Windows Media Player\wmplayer.exe by default on most newer machines). Raul654 18:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Wow, thanks, all taken care of. The was no association in Folder Options. Thanks a mill. Bswee 18:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to convert some *.mov files to *.ogg... is there an app that will do this for me that is very easy to use... my OS is WindowsXP. ~mfinney

When I've done this in the past, I did a two step conversion: .mov -> mpeg using virtual dub, and then mpeg -> ogg using ffmpeg2theora. Raul654 22:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia using .ogg will add one more reason for your listed players (Real, WMP, QUicktime) to support them. If nobody uses it, nobody will have reasons to support it. I'm completely in favour of this choice. 201.212.255.118 19:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I am personally frustrated by the decision to only have .ogg files, which is not readily accessible with an 'off the shelf' computer. Doesn't that go against the whole idea of accessibility and making it easy for people to use wikipedia? Why not provide multiple file formats, if keeping .ogg files is such a big issue? I'm glad no one has come up with another brilliant idea like making wikipedia Linux only. --I 06:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

BETTER WAY TO WATCH OGG ON VISTA/XP USING WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER! I tried to use the instructions again and again. But alas, the oggs were all duds for me. A day or two ago I stumbled on a blog for ways to improve Windows, and I found this! Codec Pack. The only thing I am worried about is that you might have to open Windows Media Player's menu, and check off the codecs after the install, and the install is quiet large for the undeserving those with dial-up, or limited disk space. Plus its not available to Win98/ME/2000 if I understand right. So aside from all that its pretty neat. It grants access to more then just OGG too! SO I suggest we give this as an alternative, or something. If we can get more people to view media on Wikipedia, then it means we'll have more media! - Thekittenofterra 08:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early discussion moved from Wikipedia talk:Audio help

Check the hydrogenaudio site. There is no dispute that the best Ogg Vorbis encoders produce better quality audio than the best MP3 encoders at the same bitrate. MP3 requires about a 20% increase in bitrate to make up the difference, even with the best encoders.

By the way, though this is mere semantics, it's not the MP3 format itself that is encumbered by patents. It's the encoding and decoding technlogy.

The Uninvited Co., Inc. 02:53, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well.. it's semantics but... One of the Thomson patents covers perceptual encoding using subbanding. It's not possible to encode a valid MP3 file without violating the patent because it is very broad. Thus the claim that the format itself is encombered isn't *that* far from reality. (don't you love wiki's ability to have conversations spanning years?)--Gmaxwell 21:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Should this page be moved to the help namespace? -- Tarquin 11:21, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yup; doesn't it belong at Help:Audio? —Michael Z. 2005-03-27 14:26 Z


I have changed the url for Ogg Vorbis support for windows from http://tobias.everwicked.com/oggds.htm to http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/ With this one you have not only Ogg Vorbis but also Ogg Speex, Ogg Theora and Ogg FLAC. Wikipedia does also use Ogg Theora for video so that is better. --Walter 22:49, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

--- Do you think the link to this page from the audio could be changed from the question mark to (help) or something like that. Thanks. Zscout370 11:18, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Promote VLC

Might I suggest you promote VLC more? It works all OS's except some older Macs. It's also open source and is simpler to install than a new codec pack on most systems. I'm not going to edit this page; you're doing a great job, but perhaps it might be easier to concentrate on one player. VLC, most of the time, is a "one size fits all" solution to most codecs. --CalPaterson 21:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, we can't really "promote" VLC because that would violate WP:NPOV, but you're welcome to add relevant facts in support of it. —Keenan Pepper 21:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about other media problems?

What about a FAQ page for further questions about media? I have VLC and it plays .ogg files, but there's clipping on either end of short files (like single words) so that I sometimes can't hear anything. I'm sure I'll be able to fix the setting or make it play it in something else, but the people this guide is for would be stranded. There should be more info than just how to install the media players. There should also be a FAQ to address common problems.

--Everlong 18:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can I upload mp3s?

reply on my talk page--hottie 10:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to fix inaccuracy

I have just been pointed to this page, but it contains an important and often inaccurate assumption, which should be corrected. It says If your computer does not automatically play these files when you click on them, you can enable it to do so by downloading and installing free software from the Internet. This assumes that the user has control of the machine they are using. It is quite common for corporate PCs to be locked down, and other machines such as in Libraries or Cybercafés generally have the same limitation. In addition, I know computer users, particularly the Granny generation, who are not capable of installing software on their machines, and daren't risk it in case they break something which they will not be able to fix. Even Linux users can shy away from this task [5].

Normally, I'd just make the edit, but because the article has been dormant for some time, I instead propose the following new wording here. It is also more concise, being two words shorter : If your computer does not automatically play these files when you click on them, downloading and installing free software from the Internet can enable it to do so. What do people think? Stephen B Streater 20:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

At least one knowledgeable person has seen it, and no one objected, so I've fixed it. Stephen B Streater 22:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Firefox

i have a problem playin these files on firefox, it begin good, but when i clic the stop button it crash nd i have a steady loud beep tone that doesnt turn off nd i have to restart the computer. Anyone else have that problem or its just my sound card?--ometzit<col> 20:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../m/e/d/Wikipedia_talk%7EMedia_help_7624.html"