Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-09-06 Victim photo from 1981

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Wikipedia Mediation Cabal

Article: Image:Girlvic.jpg State: Closed Requested By: Patchouli Other Parties: Others Mediated By: Kilo-Lima

Contents 1 Mediation Case: 2006-09-06 Victim photo from 1981 1.1 Request Information 1.2 Mediator response 1.3 Compromise offers 1.4 Discussion

[edit] Mediation Case: 2006-09-06 Victim photo from 1981

[edit] Request Information

Request made by: Patchouli 09:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Where is the issue taking place?

Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 September 6

Who's involved?

Patchouli and others at Image:Girlvic.jpg.

What's going on?

The source and copyright of Image:Girlvic.jpg is being questioned after its inclusion in Criticism of Islam under the "violence" subsection.

What would you like to change about that?

I would like some administrators to chime in.

Would you prefer we work discreetly? If so, how can we reach you?

No.

[edit] Mediator response

[edit] Compromise offers

[edit] Discussion

• Image:Girlvic.jpg (talk | delete)
  

Uploaded by Patchouli (notify | contribs). The source for the image is http://www.pcpages.com/ani/polgr/inani/lop/thenow4/thenow04.htm which is NOT a reliable source according to WP:RS. Rather it seems to be a propaganda link. Aminz 05:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this image comes from a Website with a clear bias against Islam. However, this does not warrant its deletion per the deletion criteria for photos at the top of this page. --Patchouli 05:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Patchouli, I believe it is unencyclopedic. If you could find such image on the reliable news website such as BBC, CNN, etc, I will have no objection to it. My point is that I, for example, can make a fake picture and put it on a website. If you could establish that this picture is real, I would have no objection to it. Thanks --Aminz 06:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If I wanted to use an image from BBC, CNN, AP, AFP, Reuters, etc., then everyone would beat me on the head for downright copyright infringement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Patchouli (talk • contribs).

Please establish the reliability of the image, otherwise it should be removed. Thanks --Aminz 06:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It is irrelevent whether or not the website has bias against Islam. However, the website does not state where the image came from, and whether or not it is copywrighted. Given the amateur quality of the website, it will not be likely that the webmaster created the image himself, and probably copied and pasted it from somewhere else. Thus, without any knowledge of its copywright status, it cannot be used on Wikipedia. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 06:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If we want to play an speculation game, then I think it has been posted by an Iranian expatriate whose news outlet was shut down by the mullahs. It isn't our job to allege copyright infringements without proof.--Patchouli 06:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the burden of providing the proof is on the editors who want to keep the image. --Aminz 06:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• The subject of this photograph is Maryam Ghodsi-Maab. She was severely beaten and finally her "death on 7th October

1981 resulted from eight bullets entering her chest, eight her back and one her head. (Executed by the revolutionary court.) Coroner- Dr. Pazhuheshi.http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/book_on_women/wi&e.pdf

Another account of her is at http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/book_on_women/chapter2.html. --Patchouli 07:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Patchouli, 1. http://www.iran-e-azad.org/ is not an academic website. It belongs to the People's Mujahedin of Iran which is an armed, opposition group of the Iranian government. It is currently in the list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations of the US Government. Having said that, this does not imply that their website is not factual but they definitely do have political biases. I don't think such websites satisfy the requirements of WP:RS. Furthermore, one needs to establish that the uploaded image "is" actually the image of the same person. I suggest waiting for some admin attention to this case. --Aminz 07:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

There are only mediators here, not administrators. Which do you want? Mediators only help resolve a problem but cannot take any concrete action. Administrators have the power to take concrete action, but should only be used for unresolvable disputes. Jsw663 19:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• I welcome either mediators or administrators. Therefore, if you are not an administrator, then don't hesitate to proffer points and make arguments. However, eventually the photo has to be either deleted or inserted in Criticism of Islam. --Patchouli 21:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Reliable sources noramlly only refer to citing a fact, in order to prove something written on Wikipedia; thus the source of the image is irrelevant. However, because the [newspaper] source that this image has came from is not available, so violates WP:FUC, (per number 10, bullet 1) in which "Proper attribution of the source of the material, and attribution of the copyright holder (if it is different) [must be given]." Because there is no source, this image is not permitted for use on Wikipedia. So if this dispute is to be resolved: Patchouli, you must supply the source of the newspaper for this image, if you cannot find it, then the media will be deleted. If you can find it, it would also be a good idea to cite where you got that information also from because of this entrie dispute relating to sources. Iolakana•T 17:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• This photo together with its caption could not have been published in a newspaper because I doubt the existance of a newspaper in Iran that ran with both English and Persian text on the same pages in 1981. The cites holds the copyright of the image.

However, this image is making Muslim apologists very riled up. I am concerned not what happens to it and if you seek my consent to delete it, then you have it. I don't have the time and will to engage in a discussion like the one at Talk:Criticism of Islam#The case of Atefah Sahaaleh. I found this very funny at that place:

her death had NOTHING to do with all of Islam, since Iran is a Shia country, and 90% of Muslims are Sunni. —User talk:Kirbytime

--Patchouli 02:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• • First I would like to thank the mediator for accepting to hear us. By reliable sources requirement I meant some kind of proof that the picture is real in the first place (and implicitly that such thing actually happened). If it is appeared in a well-established newspaper, I will not have any objection to it. The problem is that this picture appears in two places (to best of my knowledge): 1. some anti-Muslim unacademic, unreliable and unknown blog 2. on the website of People's Mujahedin of Iran, an armed opposition group of the Iranian government which is also currently in the list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations of the US Government. They do have a political bias. Their websites are not like BBC, CNN, or a widely read news websites. I am not saying whatever they say is wrong but that I personally try to first double check it with other sources before accepting it. If it could be established that the picture is real, I will have no objection with its existence in wikipedia. But again putting it in an article needs arguments of why it is actually relevant to that article. --Aminz 02:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The image has been deleted. The case is now closed as we have nothing further to go on. Iolakana•T 14:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)