Talk:Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on October 11, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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[edit] Deletion debate

I don't see why we need this article, in light of the fact that we already have the Zhvill article. Please convince me not to put a delete tag on it.--Meshulam 11:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you -- I'm new to wikipedia and in looking through the various Hasidic dynasties and clicking on Mezbuz in the list I found no information at all about the place which was after all the Baal Shem Tov's rebbestrive and therefore the source of Hasidus. In trying to fill some of that in, the only way to 'update' and make it somewhat relevant to the present and accurate was to link it to the Zviller in Boston who is actually the Zvhil-Mezbuz Rebbe and whose 'real' lineage through the males in the family is from Mezbuz going back to R' Boruch and the Baal Shem Tov. The Zvhil side comes from his grandfather's father-in-law who his grandfather succeeded and became rebbe in his father's lifetime (which was a Chernobyl practice from his mother and grandparents who were cousins of my own grandparents). So rather than have a blank hole about Mezibuz, where the Baal Shem Tov, R' Boruch'l, and their descendants until the Zviller's great grandfather held court, I tried to fill it in as best as I could. Also, the Rebbe's grandfather was Zviller Rebbe only until his own father died in Mezbuz, at which time he became Zviller-Mezbuz Rebbe, so I felt we should also round out the picture with the Mezbuz side. Hope that explains it -- let me know if you need more. --ChosidFrumBirth 17:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why we need to have a page that mirrors both the Zhvill page, and the Zhviller Rebbe's page. I am proposing that it be deleted. --Meshulam 21:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point of view, but not only is this page different from those even though it relates to some of the same individuals, but without it there is absolutely no information on the place where the Baal Shem Tov began Hasidus, and no information or links on the descendants of that line. Please reconsider. Thank you. --ChosidFrumBirth 09:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I am very glad to see that this article will not be deleted at this time. Wikipedia was lacking an article about the hometown of the Besht and its subsequent Hasidic dynasties and I was glad to see it included.

[edit] Do not delete at this time

Meshulam: You should avoid this kind of move (the hasty nomination to delete) because it's a slippery slope and could lead to the nomination for and deletion of similar articles about smaller Hasidic dynasties - by people who are not experts and don't care - with unintended consequences. Votes to delete are open to the world and you are inviting people who have no idea what this topic is about at all to cast a vote, which is very unfair and lacking insight. It seems that you may have been better off trying to add a {{merge to}} template or considered MERGING the material at some point perhaps and WAITED (at least a month!) to do so. You should also have first started a discussion at a number of places where people who know something about this topic could have given their intelligent input, such as at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week. Or you could have contacted other editors who deal with topics like this to solicit their views. This action of your is extreme and I do not condone it. I urge you to withdraw this nomination. Thank you. (I am cross-posting this message on a couple of relevant places, to get people's attention.) IZAK 10:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fixing the article

The article has some serious issues with POV and OR. I am going to try to fix some of those problems.--Meshulam 21:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you -- it needed that. Great job. I will make some minor corrections. --ChosidFrumBirth 23:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Context

The article has some serious context issues. The authors should put together some information (that complies with POV and OR) that gives a context to the numerous names that are dropped in the article.

  • Firstly please sign your comments with the four tildes ~~~~ so that we can know who is saying things around here. Secondly, while you are essentialy correct, most articles relating to the Category:Hasidic dynasties have material in them that will need to be double-checked and sourced even more over time. Finally, because so much of Hasidism is based on well-known "oral histories" (but sometimes obscure stories) care should be taken that these oral histories and stories are at least placed on the record and when they are written out that is when the process of double checking them and re-cehcking them can begin, which will time-consuming, but ultimately rewarding as it will provide a good encyclopedia on the subject for those who want to know more about it but would never find it anywhere else. IZAK 05:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Bick?

is this the place to mention Rabbi Moshe Bick zt"l, and his son Rabbi Avraham Yehoshua Bick, shlit"a, the Mezhbuzher Rebbe of Boro Park? Itzik18 07:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably not - it's not part of the same dynasty, and I think he is the Mezhbuz Rov (and poisek for Skwer Boro Park), not Rebbe. --ChosidFrumBirth 09:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that if a noted Rov has a connection with a Hasidic dynasty it is logical and acceptable that he be mentioned in a sub-section in this article, such as "People associated with Medzhibozh" or "Other notable rabbis associated with Medzhibozh." However if a rabbi or Rov is notable enough in his own right he can have an article devoted to him exclusively. This would be a good topic to bring up with editors at Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week. IZAK 09:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I added more details about the Bicks. I think it is important, as this is a true rabbinic dynasty that really did live and ran the show in Medzhibozh. More so than some of the other rebbes mention who may have never set foot in Medzhibozh. --Klezmer 01:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a large section on the non-hasidic Rapoport/Bick dynasty. How does that fit into an article entitled Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)? Surely it should be in a separate article, covering the Jewish Community of Medzhybizh?--Redaktor 13:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Redaktor. The Bick family has absolutely no place in an article about the Medzhibozh hasidic dynasty; they are a Rabbinic family, not a hasidic dynasty. The Bick family nowadays are Hasidim and maybe one day will become a Chasidus like Nitra, Dushinsky, Makeve, Vien which have metamorphosisized to Rebbes. Rav Moshe Bick was known as a Posek not as a Hasid. They do actually have a place in an article about Jewish Medzhibozh. To place it here is to stand history on its head. Itzse 22:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I also think Redaktor made a good point, as I said on the other talk page where this is being discussed (list of Hasidic dynasties). --ChosidFrumBirth 22:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Since no-one has disgreed with my suggestion, I am moving the section on the Rapoport/Bick dynasty to Medzhybizh#Jewish_History, where it belongs.--Redaktor 22:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't belong there. A dynastic listing has no place in the history of a town. It belongs where dynasties are listed. If you want to spin this off into a separate article, that's fine by me. But you can't make a claim about Medzhibozh rabbinic dynasties without mentioning the Bicks. And today, they are chasidic. All gets into the definition of what a dynasty is, which no one is willing to answer. --Klezmer 23:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to a separate article about the Rapoport-Bicks. I guess you can also put the chasidishe Bicks in here. But you cannot put a non-chasidish dynasty in an article titled Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty). Especially when the proposal ahs been here for over a week and no-one else supports Klezmer's position. --Redaktor 00:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that Redaktor and others are absolutely correct -- Klezmer is not being reasonable or objective, and repeetedly refering other people's edits back and calling us all a bunch of "Hasidic fanatics" (See User_talk:Tutmosis and User_talk:Editor_at_Large) just because nobody agrees with him or with his agenda or version of the truth is not productive. --ChosidFrumBirth 00:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Such nastiness from ChosidFrumBirth is completely uncalled for. We are having a logical reasonable discussion here. No need for personal attacks. --Klezmer 04:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry -- didn't think I was being nasti -- but you don't answer when I leave comments on your talk page, and you ignore everyone else's opinion and just continue to revert to your own version over and over without any compromise --that doesn't sound like reasonable discussion to me -- and your calling us "Hasidic fanatics" whose making the personal attacks here? --ChosidFrumBirth 13:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I wish we could have a reasonable discussion, Klezmer. So far you have discussed nothing, reverting my reasonable edit without giving a rationale. I really must ask you to desist from reverting my edit (explained carefully) without an explanation.--Redaktor 19:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
See the discussion in Talk:List of Hasidic dynasties. That's where the discussion is. --Klezmer 19:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Messed up the Medzhibozh Rabbinic Lineage bigtime!

Okay, folks, this is really messed up. You've got it right up until R. Boruch of Medzhibozh - his direct lineage to the Chasidic dynasties ended upon his death in 1811 in Medzhibozh. Yes, there were other direct descendents of the Besht, such as R. Nachman of Bratslav. But NONE lived in Medzhibozh after R. Boruch. The next Medzhibozher Chasidic dynasties were related to the Apter Rebbe - R. Abraham Joshua Heshel of Apta. He arrived in Medzhibozh in 1813 in the power vacuum left behind after R. Boruch's death. His descendents and those of his family who married into the Friedman family (Sadgora Dynasty) were the people who claimed the throne of the Medzhibozher dynasties.

This is just not true. Rabbi Boruch had grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren who inherited his house and lived there until the early 1900's. Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel of Zvil was born in that house to his father Rabbi Mordechai of Medzhibozh and lived there until he married the Zviler Rabbi's daughter and moved to Zvil. --ChosidFrumBirth 13:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, ChosidFrumBirth, give me proof! To me that's just heresay. I have never seen a document that mentions it. And even if it were true, R. Boruch's brand of Chasidism fizzled out in Medzhibozh, replaced by the Apter Rebbe. There's plenty of proof of that one. See, for instance, some of Ansky's work from the 1914 period. So, any descendant of R. Boruch who might have existed would have been merely a figurehead in Medzhibozh after R. Boruch's death and not the scion of a dynasty.
This isn't a fight or competition. And it's not a debate over what is a dynasty or isn't. It also isn't a discussion over the so-called scholars or what is proof. The fact is there is a lineage and descendants of Rabbi Boruch who were born there, lived there, inherited Boruch's property etc. and continued whatever it was that you say Boruch was or wasn't. Period. Apt isn't Medzhibozh and Medzhibozh isn't Apt, so give it a rest. --ChosidFrumBirth 17:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see proof and I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. If you are promoting what you believe are facts, prove it! I can tell you this... Tzvi M. Rabinowicz, 1996, The Encyclopedia of Hasidism, Jason Aronson, provides no such evidence. Most researchers in this subject consider the Rabinowicz source a fair, even-handed treatment of the subject. Moreover, it was always considered one of the most complete sources on this type of material. What it does say is that the Zvill/Goldman Rabbinic family was descended from the Baal Shem Tov spiritual heritage through R. Yekhiel Mikhel, which gives it the Mezhbizh connection. However, none of the Goldman bios listed in Rabinowicz was born or lived in Medzhibozh. Including - R. Yaakov Yisroel of Zvil (born in Zvil according to Rabinowicz, p. 154! No surprise there.) The Zviller Dynasty is represented in the Chasidic Dynasty charts I provided on this page, so no need for R. Boruch's so-called dynasty. Also, see Zvil Dynasty page. There is no reference to R. Mordechai of Medzhibozh as the father of R. Yekhiel Mikhiel of Zvil. R. Mordechai is of Zvil by both Rabinowicz and the Zvil Dynasty page. No document that I am aware of shows that either one had ever lived in Medzhibozh. If what you say is true, I'd like to see the proof. No such documents I've seen about Medzhibozh mentions this. If so, you've stumbled onto something new. --Klezmer 04:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Just goes to show you how published books can be wrong. Also, not every oral history has been put into writing, particularly among Hasidic dynasties. First, I'm not promoting anything. Second, you're confusing Zvil with Mezhbizh, and they are totaly separate. There is no reference to Mordechai of Meddzhibozh as the father of Yekhiel Mikhiel of Zvil because he wasn't -- no connection at all, and we're not talking about the Goldman/Zvil family. The only connection is that Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel (who was born in Mezbhibozh to his father Rabbi Mordechai of Mezhbizh who was from his father in Mezbhbiz etc etc back to Boruch), married R. Yekhiel Mikihiel of Zvil's daughter and then moved to Zvil and then became rebbe there. That is general knowledge in that family and among all the the Chernobl dynasty rebbes who are related. It's not for you or me to decide what is a dynasty, but these are the facts. When I have the next opportunity I will ask the Skvira rebbe who I know will know and try to find your "proof". in the meantime let it rest --ChosidFrumBirth 13:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The Bick family was a totally different rabbinic dynasty who would NOT be considered Chasidic. They were responsible for the official religious "business" of the community, such as relations with the Russian authorities, kashrut rulings, etc. They were based out of R. Joel Sirkes' synagogue in Medzhibozh - the largest shul in town. They were descendents of the Rapaport lineage. The first was R. Dov Berish Rapaport haCohen, who was the head of the Bet Din in Medzhibozh until his death in 1803. He would have been a contemporary of R. Boruch. The Bet Din remained in the hands of the Rapaport/Bick family until 1925 when R. Chaim Yekhiel Mikhel Bick left Medzhibozh for New York. Other members included R. Isaac Bick who was the head of the Bet Din in Mezhibozh until 1902 when he left for Rhode Island. There are still Bick rabbis today who have congregations in Brooklyn and in Israel.

For a complete reference, see Chapin and Weinstock, 2000, The Road from Letichev, chapter 2 The Rabbis. --Klezmer 03:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Facts wrong about Rabbi Boruch's descendants in Medzhibozh

Someone please justify the following statement: "Reb Mordechai, was the last Mezibuz Rebbe to inherit and hold court in the Baal Shem Tov's home". I can find absolutely no evidence for this statement.

Sefer Meshivas Nefesh Yitzchok
Can you quote the exact passage from this book? Can you provide a scanned copy of the Yiches Brief? That would be a great value to scholars of this subject. --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


First of all, in the genealogy presented, I cannot find evidence that R. Mordechai was from Medzhibozh at all. All the sources I have list him from Zvill (born, raised and died there).

Wrong R. Mordechai -- there was Mordechai in Chernobl, another in Zvil, etc. etc -- this one is from Medzhibozh according to Alfasi's history of Hasidim.
And I'm questioning whether Alfasi's history is accurate or not. --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Second, there is absolutely no evidence that anyone ever used the Baal Shem Tov's home after he died. In fact, quite the contrary. I have three sources on this. (1) Abraham Rechtman of the Ansky ethnographic expeditions (1914) reports that the house was turned into a shrine with everything left the way it was when the Baal Shem Tov lived there. [Rechtman, 1958, Yidishe etnografye un folklor, YIVO, Buenos Aries]. (2) This is collaborated by an oral testimony taken in 1994 reported in Chapin & Weinstock [2000] from Medzhibozh resident Dora Zichroni of events that took place between 1910-1921. Zichroni recalled as a kid sneaking past Chasid guards at the Baal Shem Tov's house and peering into the windows. She recalled it as being a daring act because the place was scary, with everything the way it was left 150 years earlier. She also noted how everyone was superstitious about disturbing the spirit of the Baal Shem Tov by desecrating the place. She claimed no one lived there, because it was treated as holy ground. (3) This is further collaborated in a Holocaust testimony by Holocaust-survivor Moishe Einhorn, recorded in Yad Vashem. Einhorn describes tearing down the Baal Shem Tov's house and shul and using it for firewood in the Medzhibozh ghetto. He claims that there was considerable trepidation and fear of supernatural death about breaking down the Baal Shem Tov's sealed up home as no one dared do it for almost 200 years prior. But the ghetto inhabitants figured they were dead anyway if they couldn't keep warm in the winter. So they did it. ["The Medzhibozh Ghetto", Testimony within Yiddish periodical Sovietish Heimland, 1981 edition, published in U.S.S.R.].

All that was after Rebbe Mordechai died, his son Rebbe Yaakov Yisroel was Rebbe in Zvil by then and then according to Alfasi left Zvil for Boston in 1915. So looks like Rebbe Mordechai and Rebbe Yaakov were the last ones in the Baal Shem tov's house, and the last Rebbes there before it was transferred to Zvil and then Boston. Doesn't take anything away from the Bicks, Klezmer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ChosidFrumBirth (talk • contribs) 02:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC).
Give me some dates, here. What's interesting to me is that if this lineage was so important to include them on this Wiki page, and if they lived and died in Medzhibozh, how come they aren't buried in the Medzhibozh Cemetery? One would think if they were so important, they would have elaborate graves right near the Baal Shem Tov. R. Boruch does, where's the others of his so-called dynasty? Take a look at Chapin & Weinstock (2000) who provides a map and inventory of the Medzhibozh Jewish Cemetery. The only ones buried in the vicinity of the Baal Shem Tov are the Apter Rebbe, R. Boruch, Zev-Wolf Kitses (a disciple), R. Landa, and the Rapoport/Bick line. These Medzhibozh "Dynasty" folks must indeed be obscure. --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

So, folks, unless you can provide reasonable evidence of this business about Reb Mordechai, I'm going to delete the statement as untrue. I'll give you guys a week to figure it out; otherwise it goes bye-bye.

All of that obviously took place later. According to Alfasi Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel was born in Medzhibozh in 1883 the Baal Shem Tov's house which was his father's Rabbi Mordechai and then he married the Zviler Rebbes daughter and moved to Zvil.
Still doesn't explain why Zichroni and Rechtman independently claim about 20 years later that no one lived there for over 100 years. Nor does it explain why items left in the house were noted as being in the exact location as when the Baal Shem Tov died. I'm guessing now, but if there's even a shred of truth to this story, it may be that Alfasi is describing events occuring in R. Boruch's house, which was a different house. But even this can't be corroborated by other evidence, such as census or tax records. Thus, it still casts doubt on the Alfasi source material as being severely flawed. --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Klezmer—Alfasi is an established authority in this field and may be quoted as a RS. If you disagree with something he says it is not appropriate to delete it. The proper thing to do in an encyclopedia is to quote the opposing opinion with its source. If the difference of opinion is just your own research on the subject I doubt that it should appear here (OR).--Redaktor 08:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


I'm checking on some of the other details presented. Someone needs to put some dates on this. We can't just go on heresay with these articles; they have to be based on real facts. Otherwise, they are just bubbameisis. So far, I've mostly found bubbameisis... --Klezmer 02:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Not all of Jewish history, particularly Hasidic history, has been reserached or recorded or even writen about -- all these books are new and don't compete with family history passed down -- go ask the rebbes and they'll tell you. Sorry if this conflicts with your stories about the Bick family -- it doesn't take anythign away from them, but don't deny facts just because you don't know anything about it or can't find it recorded in some book somewhere. --ChosidFrumBirth 02:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Not a fair statement. Scholars in this field (and I consider myself one, with over 30 years experience in this subject) can find written documented evidence through things like tax records, census of houses in the town, yiches briefs from books written by the Tsadiks, notes written in margins of siddurs, etc. BTW, I scoured all the Russian tax records and every census I can lay my hands on, and I cannot come up with any of these people. Look, ChosidFrumBirth, if there is a new discovery that I was unaware of, that's a great find. I'd be thrilled to death to add it to our scholarly body of knowledge. But the problem so far seems to be a lack of independent corraborating evidence other than heresay. And the negative evidence seems at this point to be overwhelming.
My bottom line is that the evidence seems to show after R. Boruch, this so-called "dynasty" doesn't exist, at least not in Medzhibozh. Sure he left descendants, but that's not the point. These descendants seemed to have merged into other, more prominent sects. When I think of "dynasty" I'm considering the whole gamut of a spiritual legacy including followers of that legacy, similar to what R. Nachman of Bratslav left behind. (I bring up R. Nachman only because his seems to be the only still-active dynasty (dead end as it were) with a true uncontested blood relationship to the Baal Shem Tov. I'm not a Bratslaver and have no stake in any of the Chasidic sects, I'm just interested in presenting the truth.). --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
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