Talk:Mediterranean climate

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[edit] Micro climate?

Can someone with actual knowledge elaborate on this?... The bit about the mediterranean micro-climates is stretching it: parts of the Pacific Northwest as far north as southern British Columbia may resemble a mediterranean climate, sometimes- but I don't think there is a basis for this comment. I live in the region and have travelled extensively here, southern and western europe, and Santigao, Chile. I don't really see a consistent similarity. Here (SW British Columbia), it is essentially the same temperate west coast climate that stretches from Prince Rupert, BC to northern California, with a slight variations in decreased rainfall due to rain shadows. Incessant cloudiness and rain typical of this part of the world in the winter are not typical of a mediterranean climates, even with the increased rainfall in the winter months. The summer months, although drier and sunnier, do not typically have the consistent intense sunlight and dry air.

Yes, sounds like a real estate booster at work ;-) Grant65 | Talk 10:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Refer to Victoria for some resolution in this matter. Even Tourism Victoria (they wouldn't be biased, would they?) refers to Victoria's climate as "sub-Mediterranean".207.6.233.239 17:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the difference in vegetation and climate between Prince Rupert and Victoria is obvious even at a glance. Victoria gets around 24 to 30 inches of precip per year (depending on location), whereas Prince Rupert gets about 100 inches. To put that in perspective, southern France and Rome both get around 30 inches. Prince Rupert experiences no summer drought whatsoever, while Victoria experiences a fairly severe summer drought, even by Mediterranean standards (drier than Rome or Marseilles in July and August? Yes) The difference between Victoria and Prince Rupert is HUGE. And of course the vegetation is thus completely different. Southeastern Vancouver Island has sclerophyllus broadleaf evergreen forest and oak parkland, Prince Rupert has temperate rainforest. The difference is entirely due to latitude and orographic (rainshadow) factors...As far as Victoria receiving incessant winter rain, that's more of a colloquialism than actual meteorological fact...check your weather statistics, or read the Koppen climate classification categories, and fit the Victoria data into that model..and voila, you'll get a Csb climate (classic cool Mediterranean climate). The same is not true of Vancouver, Seattle, or Portland by the way. Comment by user:24.64.223.203, 22/08/06.

Herein the problem lies... strictly using the Koppen climate classification, even Vancouver falls into the Csb category! Victoria's climate is more like Torquay or Paris than classic Mediterranean locations. When is the last time it snowed 200mm in Rome or San Francisco? It did in Victoria a couple of years ago, and it has from time to time as far back as I can remember. The temperature drops to 12 C at night in the middle of August. The rain is distributed as sporadic showers over several days even in summer (Think back to two weeks ago- it rarely goes more than a few weeks without the interruptiuon of several days of cool rain). The total precipitation is similar to Rome or Marseilles in summer, but these places get their rain in a few hours... not weeks. The weather patterns are different, the sun's intensity is different, and the summers are very predictably free of rain except for the odd thundershower. In a nutshell, I don't care what the Koppen climate classification says, it cannot call the climate of Victoria the same as the Mediterranean basin! I believe Grant65 is correct in his assessment of Victoria's climate- it is mediterranean-like.207.6.233.239 16:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

1) Actually, Vancouver does not qualify as a Csb. Victoria does.

2) Victoria's climate is decidedly NOT like that of Paris, which sees rainfall evenly spread throughout the year with a slight maximum in the spring/summer (the exact opposite of Victoria).

3) Your point about snow is conceded.

4) As far as cool summers are concerned...as I've said, many med climate areas experience cool summers -- ever been to San Francisco in July?

5) As to precipitation - the numbers again bear me out! According to Environment Canada, Victoria's average number of days with precipitation >0.5mm in July and August is approximately one day per month. >0.2mm (or, essentially nothing) = 5 days per month. Again, this is equivalent to places such as Marseilles or Rome.

By the way, all of my information is coming from Gonzales, close to downtown Victoria. The information can be found at http://www.climate.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/climate_normals/index_e.html.

I don't see the big issue here; it seems the data bears me out, but people simply can't accept the idea?24.84.208.246 11:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

No, what we can't accept is original research such as this. Until you can find a published reliable source that explicitly says that Victoria has a Mediterranean or sub-Mediterranean climate, you can't put it in the article. -- Donald Albury 22:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay. It seems to me that the most widely accepted of all "classification" systems for climate is still Koppen, despite its flaws. Since Csa and Csb climates are subtropical dry-summer climates, here is a chart indicating their presence in the Pacific Northwest. Now to me, this chart is a little generous, but it certainly corroborates what I've said and is from about as reliable a source as possible. http://snow.ag.uidaho.edu/Clim_Map/koppen_usa_map.htm I don't have all day to keep looking up Koppen maps that show enough detail on the PNW region, but you get the drift 24.84.208.246 21:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

More sources: http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/garryoak.pdf (from the government of Canada), http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/so06/indepth/nature.asp (from Canadian Geographic).24.84.208.246 21:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yet more: http://www.wildernesscommittee.org/campaigns/rainforest/island/vancouver_island/reports/Vol24No05/rainshadow (The Wilderness Committee, an environmental non-profit), http://www.psat.wa.gov/Publications/03_proceedings/PAPERS/ORAL/6a_reade.pdf (Parks Canada), http://www.racerocks.com/racerock/RREO/rrreference/rrnatpark.htm (Parks Canada, again).24.84.208.246 22:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Those sources support saying in the article that the area has a 'Mediterranean-like' climate. The sources trump all analysis of maps, rain patterns etc. -- Donald Albury 02:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

About the sources. The first source listed does not say that Victoria has a "mediterranean-like" climate. It says that Garry Oak

"ecosystems occur within a distinctive climatic zone: a near-Mediterranean' climate." (Emphasis added.)

It also clearly makes a distinction between the mediterranean climate that is typical for Garry Oaks and the one place they grow which isn't a mediterranean climate:

"Their ability to survive on rapidly drained soils, on steep south and westfacing slopes, and on sites with exposed bedrock, subject to periodic fires, accounts for their present distribution in today’s Mediterranean-type climate. The important exception is the deep-soil parkland of southeastern Vancouver Island." (Emphasis added.)

In other words, Garry Oak ecosystems occur in mediterranean climates with one important exception that being "southeastern Vancouver Island," which apparently doesn't have a mediterranean climate for the Garry Oaks. So, it appears that Victoria doesn't even meet the criteria according to the government of Canada, in the resources that Donald provided.[1] This is one of those issues that I think is beyond the scope of Wikipedia, resolving disputes for boards of tourism. I'll look at the other resources as time goes on, but it would have been with more effort had the first been a clear-cut hit. KP Botany 00:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Med climate is a specific thing

Donald, a med climate is a specific thing, Victoria BC doesn't meet the criteria -- see my comments about Melbourne below. Grant65 | Talk 03:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a published source that says that Victoria does not have a "Mediterranean-like" climate? User 24.84.208.246 has found sources that describe the southeastern coast of Vancouver Island as having a "Mediterranean-like" climate. Any analysis of the weather patterns in the area that has not been published by a reliable source is original research, and can't be used in WP. It is therefore legitimate to say that the southeast coast of Vancouver Island has been described as having a "Mediterranean-like" climate, citing the sources found by User 24.84.208.246. Remember, our verifiability policy says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." -- Donald Albury 13:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're wondering why I'm so adamant about this, I actually have two friends who went to live in the Vancouver-Victoria area because they couldn't stand Australian summers! I'm not disputing that real estate agents, tour guides and civic leaders are talking up Victoria B.C.'s climate. "Mediterranean-like" or "sub-Mediterranean" may be reasonable but they do not = Mediterranean. That is the point. If we mentioned every city/region/micro-climate with a "Mediterranean-like" or "sub-Mediterranean" climate, the article would be 10X as big. Grant65 | Talk 13:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"If we mentioned every city/region/micro-climate with a "Mediterranean-like" climate, the article would be 10X as big." (Grant65). Actually, I can't think of another place in the world aside from the 5 established med zones, and parts of the US/Canadian Pacific Northwest, that match the criteria of a strong summer dry season and mild rainy winters. If you can think of one, I'd be glad to hear it.24.84.208.246 19:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It is the Province of British Columbia Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks describing the climate of southeastern Vancouver Island as "Mediterranean-type" and "near-Mediterranean"[2], Canadian Geographic describing the climate as "Mediterranean-like"[3] and the Wilderness Committee describing the climate as "Mediterranean-style".[4] Personal experiences and reports from friends do not count in Wikipedia, as they constitute original research and do not come from published reliable sources. It is all about the sources, and the sources are there to say that southeastern Vancouver Island has a "Mediterranean-like/type/style/etc." climate. -- Donald Albury 00:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Donald, once again, "near-Mediterranean, "Mediterranean-like", "sub-Mediterranean" and similar terms mean that it is not Mediterranean per se. One citation from the BC Ministry of Environment saying SE Vancouver Island is "Mediterranean-type" is not enough.

All of the sources I posted say "mediterranean-type" or something like it, NOT "mediterranean-like".24.84.208.246 18:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

24.84, I'm not going to speculate on which other regions might want to claim a Mediterranean climate. Suffice to say there would be plenty of places with a "strong summer dry season and mild (no-one in this neck of the woods would call -5°C mild, because it never, ever gets that cold in this Mediterranean zone) rainy winters" and none of them are Mediterranean. Because it is a specific thing. For instance the map I posted below even excludes Adelaide and western South Australia, which are generally said to have a med climate. Adelaide has cool winters and dry summers from hell.Grant65 | Talk 10:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There are very, very few areas in the world with a summer dry season - it is the rarest precipitation pattern you will find. Aside from the med climate zones we've discussed, I can't think of a single example (and my knowledge on this is fairly substantial). The only possible examples are areas of the Middle East and western Asia, east of the med sea, which experience a summer dry season. However, these areas tend to be very dry throughout the year, including the winter, and therefore are best described as steppe or desert climates, and are not med.

Adelaide, I believe, does fall into the med climate zone area of Australia, regardless of what that map says. Its summers are moderately dry although not as dry as those of Victoria.

As far as temps of -5 never being recorded in a med climate zone...that is purely false. Temps as low as -5 and plenty lower have been recorded throughout the med many many times. Marseilles has hit -17C, Athens has hit -11C as recently as 2004. Again, the med climate is NOT even close to a tropical climate. Although there may be some med climate zones in the souther end of the range (ie. southern California, north Africa, south Africa, and perhaps your part of Australia) which have never hit -5C, this is not at all a criterion for inclusion in the med climate zone.24.84.208.246 18:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Not every city which is on/close to the Mediterranean, has a classic "Med climate". Grant65 | Talk 08:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As an example of how ridiculous it is to strictly interpret the Koeppen classification, the articles on Portland and even Seattle now refer to their respective climates as "Mediterranean" (Come on now! Seattle??!!). All of these cities are in the Oceanic climate regime- look at any Koeppen map in any school textbook instead of analysing and interpreting the data to suite some sort of fantasy. Portland has some mediterranean characteristics, as does Victoria to a lesser degree (at least the summers in Portland are longer and warmer), but they are not "Mediterranean". 66.183.217.31 22:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Seattle as a mediterranean climate is conceptually interesting--does this mean I can now count on it not raining for the rest of the summer, not just SeaFare week? KP Botany 00:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it's global warming in action :-D What with the Pacific Northwest boosters and the people determined to add every postage stamp sized area with a "dry" summer, this article is getting out of hand. I'm not sure these guys would be so enthusiastic about the concept if they actually lived in a classic Med zone...months of dead/moribund vegetation that has to be watered by hand because of water restrictions and scorching hot winds/dust storms anyone? Grant | Talk 05:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Gee, are you implying the grass is green in the summer in Seattle? It's simply stunning to me having spent summers in Seattle as a kid that anyone who has ever been to both Seattle and Alameda County with its brown grass hills could possibly see any climatic relationship between the two indicating they both have arid summers. Seattle is not a mediterranean climate, it rains in the summer there--lawn grass is green in the summer, not vanilla pudding scorched dung like my summer yard in Fallbrook. Ten years ago we got a summer thunderstorm in the Central Valley, people are still talking about it. Would a summer thunderstorm in Seattle occassion such interest? Yes, trying to use a Wikipedia article to promote tourism simply shows desperation--Seattle should start advertising the "bluest skies and brownest grasses you've ever seen are in Seattle." KP Botany 19:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I just read on the Biome page the claim: most regions of the earth receive most of their rainfall during the summer months; Mediterranean climate regions receive their rainfall during the winter months. Is this true? If so, the Seattle and Victoria area are an exception and "Mediterranean-like" in being winter-wet and summer-dry. Although I've usually seen the region described as "marine west coast climate" rather than Mediterranean, the wet-winter dry-summer pattern is definitely a major factor. If it is truly a very rare pattern then the marine west coast climate has something unusual in common with the Mediterranean climate. At least, that is my understanding of why the region's climate is sometimes called Mediterranean-like, sub-Mediterranean, etc. Clearly it is colder than California. But there is a normal summer drought condition. As for green grass in Seattle in the summer, perhaps it is the constant watering of parks and lawns that does the trick -- without regular irrigation watering or some kind of wet micro-climate, lawn grass goes dormant and turns brown and dry in Seattle, just like in California. Pfly 04:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Victoria's temperatures

Is that a joke about Tourism Victoria? Just wondering :-) The Victoria, British Columbia article says:

"Victoria has a sub-Mediterranean [i.e not "Mediterranean"; emphasis added] climate[1][2], with mild, rainy winters and warm, dry summers. Daily temperatures rise above 30 °C on an average of one or two weeks per year and fall below -5 °C on an average of only 2 nights per year. During the winter, the average daily high and low temperatures are 8.2 °C and 3.6 °C, respectively. The summer months are equally mild, with an average high temperature of 19.6 °C and low of 11.3 °C . Victoria does occasionally experience more extreme temperatures. The highest temperature ever recorded in Victoria was 35.3°C on July 23, 2004, while the coldest temperature on record was -15.6 °C on December 29, 1968."

Erhem...speaking as one who lives in a classic Med climate, being Perth, Western Australia, I have to say that Victoria B.C. doesn't sound Mediterranean. It simply doesn't sound warm enough. Perhaps this is akin to claims by some English people that Cornwall is Mediterranean, which it isn't. For example, the temperature in Perth almost never goes below 0°C in winter (June-August) and is frequently above 35°C in summer (December-February); we usually have at least one day per year over 40°C. Grant65 | Talk 15:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

High summer temperatures are not necessary for a climate to be classified as med. See cool-summer places such as San Francisco, coastal Morocco or Portugal, etc. Cornwall certainly isn't Mediterranean, however, on that we can agree!24.84.208.246 11:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no part of the Pacific Northwest that has a true Mediterranean climate. Except during drought years, the Pac Northwest north of about Cape Mendocino in California receives rain all year long, albeit less in summer than winter. Besides the odd monsoonal thundershower, California gets no rain at all from any midlatitude storms during the summer. If Vancouver is dry, it's because of a local rain shadow, not a Mediterranean climate regime. Tmangray 04:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

If you check Environment Canada's website, http://www.climate.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/climate_normals/index_e.html, you will see that Victoria experiences very dry summers, drier in fact than Marseilles or Rome, as I have mentioned. It is also drier, year round, than Cape Mendocino. However, it is cloudier in the winter months than most med climates, and colder; those are the only factors that really separate it in terms of climate. The cool summers do not factor in - San Francisco is a perfect example of a med climate with cool summers. And Victoria receives ample sunshine in the summer months, as much as 300+ hours in July, making it one of the sunniest cities in Canada in that month.24.84.208.246 11:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

As noted above, dryness and sunshine aside, it's the temperatures that really mark Victoria, BC as not being Mediterranean. Melbourne isn't a true Med climate either, due mostly to temperature, but even it is substantially warmer than Victoria, British Columbia. Grant65 | Talk 17:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Melbourne isn't a true med climate either "due mostly to temperature"? Really? Yet Melbourne's winter temperatures are about the same as Naples, Athens, Rome, Marseilles, San Francisco, etc? Hmmm. I guess none of those are med either? I wonder just what a med climate truly is, because apparently it doesn't actually exist around the med sea. I think the problem is that a lot of you folks have a strange idea of what a med climate is, gleaned perhaps from movies or something? A med climate is NOT tropical, is NOT dry/sunny year round, and is NOT a desert. It has cool, rainy winters (sometimes with occasional frost and snow), and summer drought. Temps in summer can be hot (inland) or quite cool (near the coast). Aside from that, I would love to see someone present some reliable sources indicating otherwise. 24.84.208.246 21:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Check the map on the right. Melbourne is right where the word "Victoria" appears (bottom right on the mainland), ironically enough. Try the resources at the Australian Bureau of Meteorology,[[5]} which classifies Melbourne as "no dry season (warm summer)", as distinct from hot and dry summers in the Mediterranean zones. I have never seen Melbourne classified as anything other than a classic temperate climate, in common with its neighbour across Bass Strait, Tasmania. Grant65 | Talk 01:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I admit to knowing next to nothing about Melbourne's climate, I just took a look at the average temperatures there, because you were suggesting that it was too cold to be mediterranean (I think). Now that I look at precipitation patterns, you're right, there is no summer dry season. Melbourne definitely isn't med. 24.84.208.246 19:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I think it's been stated repeatedly that hot summers are not a requirement to be classified as med. For instance, San Francisco has a textbook med climate (literally, it is in my climatology textbook)). Average July high temp is only 22 Celsius. The only way in which Victoria, BC doesn't match the traditional med climate is winter temperatures, which are slightly cooler than should be expected (although not by much, if you look at winter temps for the French Riviera, they're not much warmer). Aside from that, I can't think of any differences.24.84.208.246 19:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The mediterranean climate is also a function of currents, not just temperatures and rainfall, and this probably boils down to issues of the impact of the northern California Current System on Victoria. I know it starts at about the Straights of Juan de Fuca, but the question is, how much impact? Also, Victoria has, as far as I know, a subpolar flora, although I know gardeners from there who can grow a lot more than can grow in Seattle. The article is in need of more research and more information. KP Botany 00:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

To have a mediterranean climate, you need (1) the coldest month to have a mean temperature (day/night average) of over 2C, (2) the hottest month needs to have a mean temperature of over 22C, and you need to have a marked decrease in rainfall during the hottest months. Victoria BC meets (1) and (3), but not (2), as Victoria's highest MEAN temperature in July/Aug is about 17C. I think there are some interior parts of Oregon, Pacific NW which meet all three requirements.

So far it has snowed 3 or 4 times this year in Victoria and has "stuck" for extended periods of days. Furthermore, Victoria has experienced 2 artic outlows this year where temps diped below minus 10. This is harldly indicative of a Mediterranean climate, let alone Mediterranean "like". People who live in TRUE Mediterranean climates( L.A., Perth, Athens ) must be getting a good laugh out of the Victoria article

209.189.228.9 13:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC) delete the expletive in the main article folks

The map is bollox, someone scan the original and then photoshop it to get the outlines. PLus the purple bits are not needed inbetween the two climate lines. --Globe01 19:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Errrm, the purple bits are the actual Mediterranean climate zones. Grant | Talk 01:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The map of Australia shows vegetation, not climate!66.183.217.31 22:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. See http://www-cluster.bom.gov.au/climate/environ/other/kpn_group.shtml Grant | Talk 00:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)