Talk:Medieval university

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[edit] Cairo

Does anyone have any details about Cairo? All I know for sure is that it is the world's oldest continuing university. PML.

All these things depend on the definition of the word "University". There were schools all over the world much earlier than this, but whether or not they were "Universities" depends on how you define this word. With some definitions of "University" only pre-1500AD European institutions would qualify. Rnt20 14:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

An institution needs to be in a Christian Land in order to be considered as an "university." That is the most important fact(!). They did not even included where Constantinople is located until I added it. No, ancient universities of Muslims are included except The one in Istanbul. Europeans learnt science from the Moor Arabs of Andalucia, and Turks...


[edit] Title

  1. The spelling "mediaeval" is much more common in British English; as there were no U.S. mediaeval universities, this spelling would therefore seem to be more suitable.
  2. If you insist on changing it back without discussion, you should at least deal with the double redirects, and alter the text of the article in line with the title. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 07:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle Ages/British spelling of Medieval. If you didn't change all the redirects in the first place we wouldn't have to fix them. Why this article specifically? There was no medieval anything in the US, yet all our medieval articles use "medieval". Adam Bishop 15:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I see that you've simply reverted again, making your appearance of discussion a sham. I'll leave it; another conflict involving boorish editing is more than I need. (And of course I changed the redirects; that's what you're supoosed to do when you move a page.) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Even the OUP Catalog calls it "Medieval", I would image it's a pretty standard convention at Oxford? --Stbalbach 23:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-university education

I'm looking at education. I was wondering about previous education, such as the equivelent of secondary school today. Does anyone know about this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.28.40.127 (talk • contribs) .

Wikipedia is in need of an article that discusses medieval pre-University education. It's more complicated as it varies widely depending on time, place, social status and future track (just as today). I have some sources and will see if it's enough to start an article. -- Stbalbach 17:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Byzantine universities

Byzantine universities is an entirely separate topic with a very different history than those in Western Europe. There is more than enough material on the subject for a separate article. -- Stbalbach 23:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why that means Constantinople has to be removed. Also, Istanbul University does not really date from 1453, so it probably shouldn't be on the list...and if the Byzantine university is too different, why would the Ottoman university fit? Adam Bishop 18:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm going by how the DMA defines it. "University" is a western term and it means an autonomous institution. There was no such thing in the Byzantine empire, and they certainly never used the term University. Perhaps the Istanbul university became autonomous in 1453? Perhaps the Ottoman university was autonomous? --Stbalbach 00:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, as our own Istanbul University says, "Istanbul University (Turkish İstanbul Üniversitesi ) was founded as an institution of higher education named Darülfünun in 1863. It was refounded as İstanbul Darülfünunu in 1912. İstanbul Darülfünunu was closed by Kemal Atatürk in 1933 and Istanbul University was established in its place. Interestingly, the University claims that the date of establishment is 1453, which seems to have no relevant historical background." I think you are being overly exclusive in the use of "medieval" and "university". Okay, the university in Constantinople didn't work like the university in Paris, but it is generally similar, and not even all the western universities were exactly the same. Adam Bishop 01:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
A defining characteristic of a university is it is autonomous. Higher education existed since Roman times and earlier, but we don't call them Universities. At some point what we now call a "University" began - and it is generally recognized to have been in Italy, not Byzantium, this is well documented. I'm OK with removing Istanbul University from the list, I had not researched it, assumed it was accurate, guess not. -- Stbalbach 01:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] University of Constantinople

(the below thread was moved here from User:Stbalbach's talk page)

Concerning this edit of yours. What today is known in english as 'University of Constantinople', was called during the period u are refering to as 'Πανδιδακτήριον' (etymology: παν=every + διδαχή=teaching/education). The modern greek word for 'university' is 'πανεπιστήμιο' (etymology: παν=every + επιστήμη=science). these words are synonymous in greek and both represent the greek equivelent of the latin word, from which the english word comes from. Maybe the word 'university' did not exist in english back in the 9th century, but its greek equivelent did exist. There is no dispute concerning the name or the nature of this institute in the Byzantine Empire. Regards --Hectorian 22:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

See Byzantine university (which I wrote). There have been schools of higher education since the Greeks, but what we think of as a "University" - an autonomous institution - did not first appear in Byzantium; it was an Italian and French institution of the 11th century. Using etymology misses the bigger point, University of Constantinople was nothing like we think of Universities today (or in the 11th century) Italy and France). -- Stbalbach 14:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I've read both University of Constantinople and Byzantine university (u did a good job, btw). However, i can't see why the University of Constantinople cannot be considered a university in the 'true sense', or at least why the western european can be considered, but this cannot. The article about Medieval universities should not look to the issue from the Catholic perspective. The Pope did not have the privillege to recognise which institution of higher education is a university and which isn't. Moreover, saying that the U. of Const. received money from the state/church, so it was not 'autonomous', contradicts with what we know for the w.european universities as well: they also received money from the Roman Church and/or their respecive states/kingdoms. I am not only talking about the whole thing by mentioning etymology (if i did so, i would even include Plato's Academy!). I am not going to add back the U. of Const. in the list for the moment, waiting for your reply. It is a list about medieval universities, not about Catholic universities. if it remains with the current title, Constantinoupolis should be included as well, if not, lets rename it into 'Roman Catholic Medieval Universities'. --Hectorian 00:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
It is original research to call the University of Constantinople the worlds oldest and first University. I've provided top-tier academic resources and this is what they say on the subject. When determining what should be listed as a University, you have to define what is meant by "University". And the academics have done so. We can call Constantinople a University by analogy, which is fine, but when you look at what the academic sources say on the history of Universities, Italy and France are the first. Western universities were in fact autonomous, in Italy the students hired the teachers and in Paris it was initially funded by the Church, but it still maintained autonomy within the church - these were new and important changes that have lasted to the present day (well, now fully autonomous from the church). The Byzantine school was a state institution. The state rulers decided what teachers to hire, what courses to teach, etc... further the University of Constantinople was no different than schools going back to at least the 5th century in Byzantium - and if we include the University of Constantinople in this list, then we need to also include all the previous schools, because they were no different. There is a line drawn when Universities began, and it was not at Constantinople. -- Stbalbach 13:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
If u look University of Bologna, u will see that it was probably the first University in the western world. however, here it is listed first, without a note that it is not sure. and it was only when in 1158 Frederick I promulgated the Constitutio Habita, in which the University was legally declared a place where research could develop independently from any other power, making it a recognised university. In the University of Oxford in 1214 a papal legate authorised the appointment of a chancellor of the University (Church involvement was very high in those universities, similarly as the involvement of the Patriarchate in the University of Constantinople). Moreover, The University's status was formally confirmed by an Act for the Incorporation of Both Universities in 1571, so, previously, its status was disputed... Saying that the University of Constantinople was no different that the other schools in the region, is obviously false... Bringing as a fact for calling the western european educational institutes as universities simply cause in Italy the students hired the teachers is also false, cause this phenomenon dates back to ancient Greece and this is not a sole characteristic of universities. U also said in Paris it was initially funded by the Church, but it still maintained autonomy within the church. what does this suppose to mean? did the Catholic Chuch had a role to play within the uni? well, it had, and it also got involved in uni affairs, in the same way that the University of Oxford served as the site of the king's court and parliament and served as the site of the Oxford Movement in the Church of England in the 1830s. Every University has different characteristics from the other, but this is not a reason to list some as 'not exactly universities'. And i am saying this again, that u are looking on the issue from the Catholic prespective, since u consider universities only those that were recognised as such by the the Pope, and thus u have included universities from only Catholic countries (the Church of England seperated from the Roman Catholic in 1534). if u insist in removing the 'University of Constantinople' from the list, i will request a rename of the article in 'Roman Catholic Medieval Universities', since this is the field that this article covers... --Hectorian 14:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Hector, there is no need to rename the article - it says on the top hat, first line:
This article is about Western European institutions. See also Byzantine university
the distinction is made up-front. I'm not sure what the problem is. It is normal and expected to discuss these as separate and not the same thing, they really are different, very little in this article applies to Byzantine universities. When people say "medieval university", western roman catholic institutions is by far the most common meaning. -- Stbalbach 14:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not know very much about the University of Constantinople (there is practically nothing on the internet about it). On the page University it notes that "The University of Constantinople (Byzantine Empire), re-founded in 849 AD by the regent Bardas of emperor Michail III, is generally considered to be the first institution of higher learning with the characteristics we associate with University today (research and teaching, self-administration, academic independence, etc.)" -- unless someone has evidence that this is incorrect or invented, then I would think that the University of Constantinople should be added to the Medieval university list. The original reason for excluding University of Constantinople from the list was apparently because it did not match the definition of University given on the page University, and the fact that the institute was not Roman Catholic was not mentioned, making the above statement by Hectorian seem rather nasty and vindictive -- if there are sources which show that the University of Constantinople did not match the definition of University it should be put on. Rnt20 14:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, well, Wikipedia is not a reliable source (unless it is sourced). There seems to be an effort by a number of interested parties on Wikipedia to present the University of Constantinople as being the first University, and to throw out the established western historical tradition as being "Catholic POV". This is certainly a valid way to look at things, from a Byzantine Greek perspective, but it is a minority point of view in the western European historical tradition (ie. English Wikipedia). Yet - it is presented as the main/only point of view on Wikipedia. This is typical of Wikipedia. All I can say is, we present what the majority view is, we document what other people say - not what we think they should say. I find it interesting that the University of Constantinople article contains no sources or discussion about when it was called a University or by who. -- Stbalbach 14:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I added a citation there. It was called university in 849 by the Byzantine emperor Vardas. Regarding what Rnt20 said above, i agree that the way i presented it seemed nasty and vindictive, however i have to say that i have nothing against the Catholics (in fact, quite the contrary). i just wanted to say the obvious: that this article contains only 'Roman Catholic Universities' and as such, i do not think that it should be called just 'Medieval Universities'. And since Stbalbach says that it says on the top hat, first line: This article is about Western European institutions. See also Byzantine university...
I do not see why we should not rename the article. The terms 'Medieval' and 'Middle Ages' does not apply only to Western Europe, and it is misleading for the readers. (u can see the box in the same page listing the Byzantine Empire as part of the Medieval World). I am sorry, but i do not think that the English Wikipedia should appeal to and present only the western European historical tradition. An encyclopedia should list facts, not present traditions (of any kind) as facts). Thus, the University of Constantinople has all the potential to be listed here, unless this article is not about 'Medieval Universities'. About the Greek or Byzantine Greek POV, allow me to say that in most of the cases, i do not see it forced or presented (not even by the Greek users) and especially not in education-related topics. --Hectorian 15:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Concerning my 'implied comment' that Rnt20 correctly pointed out: the fact that the institute was not Roman Catholic was not mentioned: i see in the list, Medieval Universities in Mexico and the Philippines. However, Middle Ages (Medieval) is a division of the European history, not the American or Asian (see respective article). Hence, why are those Universities included here, unless the reason is of them been Roman Catholic educational institutions? Hectorian 15:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
This is the English Wikipedia, generally we name articles according to what native English speakers know it commonly by. Article names are not pronouncements of fact, they are simply place holders of convenience to help the reader find and understand what the article is about, for example Medieval science -- there was no "science" in the middle ages. Even if we did rename the article, "Medieval university" would still be a redirect here, and we would still need the Byzantine top-hat line, simply because when someone says "medieval university", they almost always mean the western European tradition. Personally I think the top hat line is more than enough information to help the reader find the correct article. The article explains its self clearly that this is about western European universities in the text of the article. I suppose it could say a little more about the difference between the Catholic and Orthodox traditions. -- Stbalbach 13:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
An article that includes universities in Mexico, the Philippines and Peru, is not an article about western European universities... A paragraph explaining a little more about the difference between the Catholic and Orthodox traditions would be quite interesting in here, since, i think, it would explain why it is so difficult to have a Byzantine University here, and it is no difficult at all to list universities in other continents... --Hectorian 19:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, i agree those should not be in the article. I didn't write the whole article, nor police every entry randomly added. The first/oldest is obviously of more significance. -- Stbalbach 12:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Division

The division of early universities setting left out one catorgy, does anyone happen to know what that might be? Just for a reminder, the first catorgy was; Bologna - students ran the university, and Paris - teachers ran the university. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.107.68.74 (talk • contribs).

Not sure I understand - can you elaborate? -- Stbalbach 16:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renaissance of the 12th century

There probably ought to be a link to the page Renaissance of the 12th century in the section about the foundation of the early universities Bluap 16:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

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