Talk:Maya civilization

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Archive 1 (Jan 2003 to Dec 2006)

Contents

[edit] E-Groups?

Could someone please explain this to me? I've had a feeling that it might be vandalism, but it's been on the article for months.

Mik 03:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Not to worry, Mik, "E-group" is a valid type of Maya structure, documented at quite a few sites, mainly from the early classic period. It takes its name from a structure at the site of Uaxactun, designated as (by Morley, I think) Structure E-VII-sub (apart from a few well-known or prominent structures, most have been given rather prosaic names based on their numbering within a surveyed grid, or some other ennumerative schema). The structure at Uaxactun is believed to have been used as an astronomical observatory particularly for marking solar equinoxes; structures at other sites classified as of the E-group type have similar forms, and presumably had similar functions. See here for a description, and here's a link to an img of the original E-VII-sub structure. Regards, --cjllw | TALK 05:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Though this discussion happened nearly a year ago, there is now a page for E-Groups. -- Oaxaca dan 01:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The name "Maya"

Does anybody know why we call the Maya Maya? We know why the Indians are called Indians. Who came up with the name Maya for the Mayan people? Is this information out there? Anybody know? Info D 07:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The Maya people and language of Yucatan, the largest single group, in their own language. -- Infrogmation 19:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Any reference? Info D 09:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The etymology of the word is obscure/obscured, but there are mentions of "maya" in a few of the 16thC dictionaries, such as the Motul, which gives "Maya: ...nombre propio desta tierra de Yucatan. maya vinic: hombre de Yucatan; indio. ("proper name of the country of Yucatan", maya winik- man from Yucatan, indian")- see some other entries in FAMSI's Combined Dictionary-Concordance of Yukatek. Another likely 16thC dictionary (the San Francisco) gives maya than :"lengua vulgar o común de esta tierra (Yucatán)" (" [name for] the common language of Yucatan").--cjllw | TALK 07:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
In the latest edition (no.125, 26 de Noviembre 2006) of "Revista D", the sunday magazine of the Guatemalan newspaper Prensa Libre, there is a whole article on this topic. Notable from that article: first documented use, the voyage of Columbus, 1502, he encounters a merchant canoe from the land of "Maiam" (recorded in the diaries of Columbus brother Bartolome and son Fernando). The term was used in colonial Spanish to refer to Yucatecan language and ceremonial objects, but never to people; it was used primarily to refer only to groups in western Yucatan (according to Matthew Restall, within the context of a larger investigation of "Mayan Ethnogenesis"). It comes from Yukatek, perhaps from the postclassic Mayan city of Mayapan, which suffered a civil war and diaspora throughout the Yucatan just prior to the arrival of the Spaniards. (the Book of Chilam Balam of Chumayel says "katun (~20-year period) 13 ahau, Mayapan was founded, and its people called Mayas. katun 8 ahau (~60, ~320 or ~580 years later? these repeat every ~260 yrs.) its lands were destroyed and its people dispersed over the peninsula. 6 katun (~120 years) after their destruction they ceased being called maya. In katun 11 ahau they ceased being called maya and were called christians.") The word seems to have attained its modern meaning starting in archeological circles, with the use spreading throughout the 19th century, and taking on political significance in the 20th century (according to Jon Schackt). I'm putting this here in comments because I don't know where to fit this into the article.--Homunq 18:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for that helpful information. I suppose it and the info above could at some point be worked into the article under a separate section on the term itself. Feel free to give it a go yourself if someone else does not get around to it.--cjllw | TALK 01:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
...but this is appropriate for almost all the "top-level" mayan articles (at least Civ, Languages, and Peoples) in the Maya template, so should it get its own article? Also, it's etymology; does that then belong in Wiktionary, with links in these three articles? And how do I cite this stuff without tracking it down in libraries - I want to credit the original authors without pretending it's not out of a newsprint-magazine puff piece, which very well may be getting its own sources secondhand...? (I don't want to be negative, I just don't know the answers.) The crucial authors are Restall and Shackt. A quick google turns up Restall as author and Penn State faculty, and Shackt as an author who gets published in Columbia in Spanish, but no actual text of anything they write. They would probably also be a good source for the last paragraph in the "history" section of Mayan languages (disclaimer: mine).--Homunq 23:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I feel like the frog from the Popol Vuh here: "Says Schact, says Revista D, says Homunq". --Homunq 19:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Impediments for trade

However, Mayans were not equipped to handle trade at such a magnitude because the absence of the wheel made it difficult to move heavy amounts of goods from one place to another.

I'd amend that to "absence of the wheel or beasts of burden" but the article seems protected against unregistered people. --84.20.17.84 09:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi again, 84.20.17.84. You may wish to consider registering a user account here, the process is quite painless and there are some advantages. Entirely up to you, of course.
The article had been semi-protected after a spate of vandalism. I've now unprotected it as the incidents of vandalism in related articles seem to have died off a bit- at least for the present. So you are now able to make any amendments. I actually think that sentence as it stands is quite misleading, the internal and external trade of commodities among the Maya was no small-scale operation, and they made expert and judicious use of water-borne transport, including both coastal and riverine forms, and also using the bajos (seasonal and extensive swamps) which are quite common in many of the lowland areas, esp. the Petén Basin.--cjllw | TALK 23:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Malinche

I wanted to wedge in a mention of Malinche in the Colonial section. It is probably too marginal to the Maya for this article, but, in a way, the Maya led to the conquest of the Aztec empire. --84.20.17.84 15:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree there's an interesting connection, and some sources at least maintain Malinche may have been from a Chontal Maya background. Maybe if we had a more detailed or separate 'Maya history' article it could be covered- we need some more lengthy treatment somewhere of the conquest-era events with particular focus on the impacts to the Maya.--cjllw | TALK 02:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-opening the sub-articles debate

I've just come across this set of articles after coming across Mayan children and Mayan health and medicine as part of the wikification drive. I decided to see where they belong and realised that at the moment trying to decide that is rather difficult. I've also noticed that there seems to be significant overlap between some of the main article and sub-articles - i.e. the writing section of Maya society is the same as that on the main article - Maya civilization - page - and ditto for art and architecture. There is lots of fabulous information across all these articles but they really do need looking at systematically - and wikipedia needs trawling for any other articles that could be brought into the fold.

As far as I'm aware from Wiki convention the main article of Maya civilization should provide either all the information on a subject (where it doesn't warrant/yet warrant of its own) or well written summaries with links to an easily understandable set of sub-articles on each major topic - these should not, however overlap as they currently do. I know its going to be difficult to agree on what sub-articles there should be and on what topics.... but this has the potential to be a really great set of articles with a little tweaking. Anybody with me? Madmedea 22:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Madmedea. You've probably noticed there's already been some discussion on this (see for eg above here for some ideas on the organisation of subsections for this article and sub-articles, but not alas much yet in the way of remediative action.
Some background on the current situation: firstly, a while back now some of the text from this main article was split off into separate ones (eg Maya architecture, Maya society) as the article was weighing in at or above the desirable length. Some of the text was then added back in here, since that had left considerable gaps in topical coverage. Some of the re-inserted text has been rewritten (to summarise main points discussed at greater length in subarticles), but there's still a fair amount of that to do. Secondly, back in about Sept last year a bunch of Maya- (and Aztec-) related articles were separately created, from scratch it seems by several first-time contributors who have made no subsequent additions. You mention a couple of these above, there are probably about a dozen or so in total. Based on the writing style and their (non-)coincidental appearance it may be presumed that these were original school or college-level "essays", or a broken-up larger essay, on various sub-topics. Apart from some minor cleanup these to date have been pretty much left alone and 'quarantined', as they are generally on viable topics but need some considerable work to bring up to scratch, tidy up some incorrect info and integrate into the overall "set" of related articles.
You are right of course, ideally this main Maya civilization article should give a detailed though succinct overview of all the main topical areas, with the array of accompanying 'subarticles' linked to which explore the topics in more detail. It's something which however is taking a fair amount of time and effort to do, or even commence in most cases. You'd be most welcome if inclined to take up on some of this and/or suggest some better ways of reorganising the material. Any help is appreciated.--cjllw | TALK 08:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the info, I thought this was probably a long running discussion. I may well have a look at how some re-organisation might take place - a fresh pair of eyes might help, you never know. If I want to do anything radical I'll post about it here first. My main worry was the replicated material between sub-articles as this would really confuse the reader and make maintenance impossible. This may be the place to start - ie. removing art and architecture from the society article....I'll get my thinking cap on. Madmedea 13:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for restructure

Right here is a proposed new structure based on analysis of the current articles and what else is lurking in the wikipedia universe....

The first level of bullets will be sections in the top-level article Maya civilisation and the links in the main navigation box. This isn't a big change from the current article structure - but some sections will need to be summarised so they are not repeating the detailed content of the 1st and 2nd level articles.

1st level articles (i.e. Maya art and architecture) would have the second level of bullets as their article sections - some will also lead on with links to "2nd level" articles (i.e. Maya ceramics) which would be summarised in the 1st level article.

N.B. Articles not currently integrated into the series (with "main article" links etc.) on Maya civilisation are in italics.

There are two key things I've tried to achieve with this new structure:

  1. Not to create any new article topics by restructuring - the red links above are either combinations of existing articles to create more logical level 1 articles (Maya religion and mythology and Maya art and architecture or a new level 1 article which brings together existing sections/articles into a more logical place Maya science and technology.
  2. Bring "into the fold" the 14 articles which have been created (and I've come across, there could be others) and do not currently link in with the series of original articles.

I'll leave this list up her for a while to see if anybody has any comments. If nobody objects I'll start the shift around. Madmedea 20:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Madmedea- certainly appreciate you taking the trouble to review the situation and come up with the proposal, which looks generally very sound. Many thanks!
There might be a couple of modifactions which could be made, but if you're keen to make a start then I wouldn't want to delay things too long trying to make a more perfect arrangement. Presumably as things are developed we can see what works and perhaps modify the scheme accordingly.
I can see the value in having 'combination' subarticles such as Maya art and architecture and Maya mythology and religion, although I can also see a value in retaining them separately- if for no other reason than there should easily be enough material to substantiate individual articles (which in turn will summarise a number of tertiary-level sub-subarticle topics).
In the main article itself the "geographical setting" section is deserving of a more extensive treatment on the geography, contrasting zones and natural environment, and there'd be scope for subarticles on these topics as well. But that can be developed in due course.
The ordering of the main subheadings could probably be revised, I'd be tempted to move up 'science and technology' and move down 'society' and 'mythology/religion'.
I think a couple of the subarticles' current titles are sub-optimal, but again that's something which could be revised at some later date once it becomes clearer what the scope of each needs to fill.
As I mentioned before, my (personal) reservation with "bringing into the fold" a few of those existing subarticles was that they are still in need of a good overhaul or even rewrite to fit in with the content and level at which the others are (admittedly far from perfectly) written. However perhaps reorganising things in this fashion will provide some much-needed impetus and addtional attention which can work to clean them up. In any event, your suggested reorg looks to be a fine improvement, thanks once more. Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 08:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments. I agree with everything - i.e. article titles, ordering etc - all is flexible, but you're also right, my intention is to get a basic overhaul done to encourage later editing.... I know the quality of some of the "new" sub-articles isn't top notch, but by not linking in with them at all I fear they are bound to stay that way. I'll make sure they're tagged for their problems so there is a warning to the reader. As far as mythology and religion are concerned my main problem is that at the moment there is no way of defining each topic to make it a clearly separate article; as is the case for many civilizations with belief systems like the Maya (the Inca articles have the same problem). I think if the "List of Gods" was separated off it would make a good single article. I'll do a trial in my sandbox when I get a chance so you can see how it might look. Madmedea 09:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I like it. I find the division between numerals and astronomy (with technology) and calendars (off by themselves) to be a little forced, and think that art and architecture could live separately just as much as together (unlike, as you say, religion and mythology). Also of course "history" needs subheadings. But I think the proposal is good and would support it as is. --Homunq 03:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Andrei Birsan si Maxim Catanoi, istorici nevibatza :-)?

The first section has this title, which I suppose is vandalism. But when I try to edit it, it is not there! I don't understand. It cannot be removed? Francisco Valverde 08:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

68.218.167.44 21:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC) whatevr this is, it doesnt have Bc. it has c. on the date... I am going to edit it to say that and nobodt erase it.. 68.218.167.44 21:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interlingua

Please add the link to the Interlingua version

[[ia:Maya]]

--190.10.0.110 22:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC) ia:Usator:André Oliva

Hi André - done.--cjllw | TALK 00:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Maya "collapse"

In reorganizing this article and prepping for some revision, I noticed that the content under the Maya collapse could very well be dumped into another newer article - anyone agreee? disagree? My only question would be concerning the title - since the Maya as a whole never actually collapsed, only the network of political systems and city-states in the southern lowlands. It was more of a shift towards the northern lowlands. But i think Decline of the southern Maya lowlands is a bit too bulky as a title... Would Collapse of the Maya or Maya collapse be too misleading? Could we actually call it Maya "collapse" with the quotation marks? (i'm pretty sure that will violate the manual of style in one way or another). Or, because that's what's known to the public at large, use the term collapse and explicitly state that the Maya never actually collapsed in the intro paragraph... hmmm..... Anywho, any input would be welcome -- Oaxaca dan 18:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

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