Talk:Max Beckmann
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[edit] Advert
is it me or is the last section one great ADVERT for the books mentioned
This isn't an article about the book, so that should be started up as a separate article. I have revised considerable sections of the current article, as the whole thing reads like an advert at the moment. Genuine enthusiasm, no doubt, but not the NPOV which Wikipedia strives to attain. Let's have more facts and less gush. Tyrenius 00:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Note
Please note that not all names that end in -man (-mann) are Jewish as some people assume. *Look for sources before adding the Prefix 'Jewish-XXian' to a biography. Antidote 02:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Expressionism
Not all of the -manns are Jews; most of them are NOT. Not all of the German artists are expressionists; most of them are NOT. And Beckmann was NOT an expresso at all! He disliked them!
The fact that Beckmann disliked Expressionists should be noted, but the fact is that historically he is classified as an Expressionist and is included under that title in art history surveys. This is due to his distortion of form to expressive ends. See current ARTnews for typical usage: "If you have room for one German Expressionist, explains Sinaiko, the nod may go to Ernst Ludwig Kirchner rather than Max Beckmann,in part because the Beckmann estate usually charges more for reproduction rights." ARTnews online
Tyrenius 11:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, bus this is bullshit by people from outside of Germany who don't know what German Expressionism is.
Deutschmann
However, this is what they say, and Wiki is here to record these different points of view. I suggest you start a section in the article where this can be examined, and we can put these points of view, showing what does and doesn't constitute Expressionism. Wiki does not exist to put personal points of view. Please cite your references and sources for what you are saying. Thanks.
Tyrenius 16:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Deutschmann
Every book and article I have seen in the UK classifies Beckmann as an Expressionist. It would be interesting and informative if you could supply Beckmann's words on this, with any art historians who do not put him in this category. In Germany what is he classified as?
Tyrenius 20:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
- These books are wrong; no German art historian labelled Beckmann an expressionist. He is considered a class of his own.
- JohnFoxIII 14:35, 25 June 2006
That may well be the case, but wikipedia policy is verifiable sources, i.e.:
- "Verifiability" in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research, because original research may not be published in Wikipedia. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is thus verifiability, not truth.
Thus if many books classify him as an Expressionist, that is to be stated. If other books state he is not, then that should also be included. Tyrenius 00:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Notes on Beckmann's Technique and Personality
Max deliberately used the basic over and under painting techniques(glaze, wash, and scumble) developed in the Renaissance. This indirect method did not suit the painters of Die Brucke, who prefered so called direct painting that is ussually associated with the Impressionists and the ala prima work done by Franz Hals. In technique and spirit, a closer comparison could be made between Max Beckmann and Oskar Kokoshka, since they were both more cosmopolitan than any of the men in Die Brucke. Only in Beckmann's woodcuts can a direct comparison be made to Die Brucke. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by VKlaatu (talk • contribs) .
- Good points - put them in the article! Tyrenius 06:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] M.B. influenced Jackson Pollack??
This states he strongly influenced Jackson Pollack. I have read a lot about Beckmann, and a little about Pollack, without coming across this. Beckmann had some work shown in America before Jackson's mature style emerged in the early 1940s, so it's not impossible this is true. But it calls for a reference. The idea that he influenced Guston is more credible. Some of Guston's pre-abstract paintings resemble Beckmann's in their arbitrary space and strange, angular compositions, and sophisticated painting technique, but I don't recall him mentioning Beckmann in his painting classes. This too could use a reference. Beckman's influence on American painting was probably strongest in Boston, among the generation of "Boston Expressionists" who were mostly born in the then-Jewish neighborhood of Roxbury around 1920. But even in Boston, Morton Sacks is perhaps the only artist to work in a style directly derived from Beckmann's. - Chelydra
[edit] Peer review?
I wonder if this article might benefit from some kind of peer review by a professional art historian. Aside from the claim that Beckmann "profoundly influenced" Jackson Pollack, there's a bothersome reference to "Magic Realists" working in the 15th and 16th Centuries. Beckmann deserves the kind of enthusiasm that runs through this article, but it could be backed up by some more meticulous scholarship. - Chelydra
