Talk:Maurya Empire

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CHAMARS (TANNERS) and MAURYA DYANASTY--- According to one view great emperors like Chandragupta, Bindusara, Ashoka and Samundra Gupta could belong to chamar community becouse a Chamar can very well attain as much vision and greatness as these great kings. It is a well known fact that Chandergupta Maurya belonged to a family which used to raise peacock feathers. The word Maurya means a mor (pecock) raiser. It were Chamars who apart from leather works used to raise peacock feathers. History reveals that many others remained confined to small cities, towns or just a district.Having ruled out all other options a chamar could be very well expected to establish larger empires and hence a right choice made by Chanakya. Mauryans had great love for principles and for all creatures. Similarly Chamar is a man of priinciples, honest, hardworking and good character who loves all creatures. A chamar would rather go for eating a dead animal rather than taking life of a living creature to meet his food requirements unlike many others. On account of the influence of Chamars' ideology during their adolecence Chandragupta Maurya adopted Jainism and Great Ashoka finally adopted Budhism.

Similarity between Ek-Lavvya and Chandergupta There is similiarity between the legendary Mahabharata hero Ek-Lavvya and Chandergupta Maurya. Both were Dalit and had inbuilt natural talents. However there was a little diffrenece between both, i.e Eklavvya couldnot make use of his talents becouse of his fictious cunning Guru Dronacharya. On the other hand Chandergupta was fortunate to have a noble person who sponsored and supported him morally i.e Chanakya. Both, Eklavvya and Chandergupta Maurya didnot need any guru as they had inbuilt talents which only needed recognition and their application. The cunning Guru in case of Eklavvya learnt from his talents whereas Chanakya supplemeted his own knowledge with the reflections from the talented Chandergupta and also seems to have helped Chandergupta in proper understanding of his (chandergupta's) own talents. Eklavvya was superior to all the other people during those days and similiarly Chandergupta was also superior to all others including Greek warrior Alexander.

Folowwing explaination from the main page doesnot seem to make any convincing suggestion.

......A kshatriya tribe known as the Maurya's are referred to in the earliest texts Buddhist texts, Mahaparinibbana Sutta. However, any conclusions are hard to make without further historical evidence. Chandragupta first emerges in Greek accounts' .......

Above observation doesnot seem to make any convincing suggestion with regard to origin of Maurya dynasty becouse Budhist texts can contain any reference to Maurya tribe only after adoption of Budhism by Ashoka. This may naturally ignore the fact that the founder of Maurya dynasty ever belonged to any lower or middle group. Everybody is Kshatria when in a warring mood therefore each human being is Kshatria during most of one's life. Having illicit relations with other's woman, enjoying a luxurious life by pushing others into poverty, looting, cheating, barbarianism and criminal tendencies are not at all related to Kshatriyas as believed by many misguided tribes.

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[edit] Edit

The key under the second map in the 'Conquest of Magadha' section says Gangelitic. Please change to Gangetic.

[edit] Espionage

How can you explain the Mauryan Empire without mentioning the use of spies?

[edit] Mauryan Empire v. Mauryan Dynasty

Mauryan Empire - "lasted from 321 to 185 BCE " Mauryan_dynasty - "from 322 BCE to 183 BCE " Contradiction?

I was navigating these pages and found something very confusing and perplexing. There is a contradiction with the pages of Magadha, the template History of South Asia and the template Middle Kingdoms of India. If i go by this article then the Mauryan Empire is a standalone entity otherwise it is merely an appellation of a famous or more successful dynasty of the Magadha Kingdom. There is a similar problem with the Sunga dynasty/ Empire articles and pages. I just wanted to know which is it? Are these two dynasties or empires because it implies a continued and persistent rulership vs. an interrupted rulership and so should be brought in line. Should Mauryan Empire be redirect to Maurya Dynasty of Magadha? or should the references be removed from the article magadha and the Sunga and Mauryans be treated as seperate kingdoms.

Whatever we decide we need to upgrade the templates Middle Kingdoms of India and History of South Asia accordingly to reflect this consistency as well. At any rate we need to merge the two articles mentioned as they replicate information. One can be a redirect to the other once we work out what goes where.

--Tigeroo 13:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename; Mauryan to Maurya

I propose the article be renamed to Maurya empire for consistency with the other 'empire' articles; e.g. Chola, et.c. Imc 18:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Rama's Arrow,

This page is about the Mauryan Empire and not Alexander; however, the version you continue to revert to finds it necessary to make Alexander the focal point of this article. There are almost as many if not more mentions of him in this article than Chanakya. The Background section is redundant and Alexander's campaigns in the rest of the article are already discussed later. Moreover, not all the kingdoms in India were small, as evidenced by Magadha. This section is purposefully meant to give the wrong impression. Lastly, there is no evidence whatsoever that the macedonian phalanx and other greek fighting techniques/formations were adopted. If you arrogate the rights of a page guardian, then please ensure that such mistakes are avoided.

How did the Mauryan Empire form? What was going on in India before it? I'm sorry, but you cannot remove the entire "Background" section. And how do you not find Chanakya's campaign to unite kingdoms against the Greeks relevant? How did Chandragupta Maurya come to have to contend with a Greek general Nicator? Rama's Arrow 02:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

That's right Rama's Arrow, ask yourself that question: How did the Mauryan Empire form? Moreover, Chanakya's campaign to unite the kingdoms is relevant, and is mentioned in the following passage, just as Alexander is. Nicator is mentioned in the following passages anyways, and is truly relevant in the two decades following the empire's founding. These are redundancies that need to be removed. The contention here is on the over-emphasis on Alexander's campaigns. Rather than ignoring my points, please take care to respond to them.

The guy has a point. The purpose of an encyclopedia article is to give the reader as good an understanding of a topic in question. As such, any mention of historical figures needs to be commensurate with their actual impact on the history. It is a bit misleading to talk about the Mauryan Empire and refer to Alexander more than Chanakya. It is also misleading to mischaracterize the nature of Indian civilization at the time of Alexander's conquests. While the kingdoms in the Punjab were not quite as militarily powerful, the ones further inside India, such as Magadha, were the most powerful kingdoms of the era. His edits have merit. While it may not necessitate erasing the entire background section, it is definitely worth editing it heavily to more accurately represent the geo-political environment of the time. Moreover, all the information in the "background" section is mentioned in other parts of the article. It doesn't really need to be there. ~Pavs

[edit] Map

According to the map, the territories of the Mauryas in the northwest seem to cover the region of Bactria, i.e. the left and right banks of the Amu Darya, which is historically innacurate :the zone north of the Hindu-Kush has always been occupied by the Seleucids and then the Greco-Bactrians. Could the creator of the map correct accordingly? Regards. PHG 23:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[1] is where the map comes from, its not user made.--Tigeroo 08:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this map free (Public Domain etc...)? PHG 23:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I have not idea at all, but the Mughal Empire uses a similar map as well.--Tigeroo 10:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Also a query why did you remove the Merge tag, I think the other page can be easily fit into this page, it is only a list but it carries links to detailed article pages for all the rulers.--Tigeroo 08:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it is quite usual on Wikipedia to separate Dynasty lists from Empire of Kingdom articles. I personally do not mind either way. PHG 23:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't beleive there is a link that even leads from this page to that, it almost seems like both were started independently and on just froze out, thats the impression created by the other article and the links it makes.--Tigeroo 10:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the Hellenistic Relations section

Is it just me or is an inordinate amount of time spent on relations with hellenistic world. It seems that more than a third of the article is dedicated to that--more space than even the origin, achievements, or rulers of the empire. In the interest of community discussion, I wanted to raise this issue before deleting the bulk of the section. My understanding of the original purpose of the stub was that it was to highlight the main points of interaction between the hellenistic and Mauryan empires and not to dominate the entire article as done here. These facts are definitely worthy of mention on this page, but not to the extent that hellenistic relations becomes almost the single largest section. The contributor curiously finds it necessary to repeat points that were stated earlier in the article and incorporate an array of crackpot theories without an iota of proof. This injures the quality of the article. First and foremost, where is the proof that this was a dynastic alliance? Frankly, since it is epigamia and not kenos that is mentioned (as noted by Dr.Nilakantha Shastri "The Age of Nandas and Mauryas", Banaras, 1952.) it is almost certainly referring to Intermarriage between Indians and Greeks. Second of all, even if a dynastic alliance took place, it is a stretch to believe that automatically a greek princess must have been the chief queen of an Indian Emperor. Third, at the time this treaty was sealed, Bindusara was already a grown man and Ashoka was already born, in 304 BCE (the settlement took place in 303BCE). Accordingly, Indian records account for Ashoka's parentage while Greek sources do not. These indigenous sources clearly note that Ashoka was born of Bindusara and a minor queen of the brahmin caste (the caste point is raised to highlight the fact that the queen was an indian and not otherwise). Essentially, this contributor develops these far-fetched notions in order to lend credence to his positions. The propagation of such "theories" are to the detriment of the quality of the article. They are being used by a contributor to lay the groundwork for his treasured notion that bactrian greeks invaded India out of a sense of justice, nobility, and dynastic connection rather than the more obvious and natural desire for conquest and expansion (as noted on the Indo Greeks page). History must be based on evidence from archaeological and accurate/dependable documentation. It should not be subject to musings of people who "like to to think that such and such a thing happened". If fantasy is injected into the many gaps of history, we are doing a disservice to both history and wikipedia's readers. Please do not commandeer this page to advance political purposes.

Regards,

Devanampriya

Hi Devanampriya. It simply happens that there is a large amount of Hellenistic ressource on the Maurya Empire, and this clearly builds our understanding of the empire. If the other parts of the article can be strengthened a bit, the Hellenistic portion will naturally decrease in weight... but the fact that it is large and highly documented is no reason to cut it down.

Regarding the discussions on marital alliance, this is just relaying here some published analysis by Tarn, Marshall etc... It is clearly just one theory, and alternative views are very welcome.

I have no "political agenda" whatsoever, but only am interested in the interactions of cultures. Regards PHG 07:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello PHG,

My friend, it also happens that there is a wealth of information on the art and architecture of the period, relations between other indian states (i.e. the andhras), the nature of the government, etc, etc. These can and will definitely be included in time. However, the concern here is that the hellenistic portion consists primarily of points that are almost all previously repeated. In essence, establishing it as the dominant theme throughout the article. That section would be better placed to discuss Bindusara's correspondence with Antiochus I, Ashoka's mentions of the various hellenistic rulers and his conquest through righteousness, and Subhagasena's friendship with Antiochus III.

Regarding the marital alliance, it is far-fetched fiction that neither author provided a shred of actual proof for. For points all previously mentioned, these musings are rendered moot, and indeed have been rendered moot, as there has been no evidence in their favor. All the points trying to link greeks with the ruling mauryan line have been negated. These same tactics were previously applied towards crediting greeks for the introduction of astronomy, drama, and a laundry list of other things because the british wanted to believe it. If we continue to use such tactics, Indians could then lay claim to the development of all western philosophy and learning since Pythagoras and his followers were all vegetarians and that theorem was first developed in India.

I am glad that you declare that you do not have a political purpose. In the interest of observing this, let us stick to the facts. What you cite is no longer valid proof much like the previous claims of Greek linkages.

Regards,

Devanampriya

I think rather than Greek sources that may have been written in Europe, it would be best to focus on Buddhist and Jain accounts of the era (keeping in mind they may have been biased against Vedic authority, etc). A good book on Chandragupta's rule by P L Bhargava is available. It suggests that rather than Greeks, it was Persians who had a greater influence on Magadhan rule - for instance in political administration of a large empire - it is perhaps no coincidence that Chandragupta and Qin Shi Huang, the respective 'first emperors' of India and China, rose shortly after the speard of Achaemenid doctrines on governance of large territories. Persia was clearly the most influencial power of this era, yet modern scholars are only now acknolwedging this. Much early British scholarship on India consisted of Euro-centric speculation - I suggest that they should be taken with a pinch of salt, given that nobody would dream of using 60 year old Nazi sources to back up modern scholarship on the racial makeup of Europe - the Hellenic world was clearly not the only major sphere of influence in this era, yet is often treated as such - there is afterall no talk of the 'Persian world', etc. Ashoka Maurya likely had a greater influence on world hitory than Alexander of Macedon, given his proliferation of Buddhism, etc (could Christianity have existed without this influence?) - yet when thinking of how one is known as a household name, and one isnt, you can clearly see the magnitude of bias, and how it arose. Wikipedia isnt just open source so that history textbooks can be repeated, but it a project designed to overcome the flaws in these areas, like this very kind of bias - lets not repeat the mistakes or deliberate errors of the past for a whole new generation to experience via the ultimate medium of the internet. Vastu 10:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone can assimilate Tarn's or John Marshall's work to "Nazi sources". They are noted historians of the Hellenistic period, who, although arguably enthousiastic about Greek influence, are still highly respected, and still quoted extensively, regarding the ancient story of India. I don't see either why ancient Indian sources should be "privileged" versus ancient Greek sources. Arguably, Greek sources have a record of being generally more accurate, and anyway, both have the right to stand as primary sources. Negating ancient Greek sources, and negating what they suggest, is akin to censorship. All sides of the story have the right to stand, for the sake of a more comprehensive understanding of history. I personnally incorporate both ancient Greek as well as ancient Indian sources whenever I can, and expect anyone to respect both. Regards PHG 11:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, greek sources have been so accurate that they note that "ethiopian semen is black", "Giant ants dig gold dust", and "men with one leg bounce around throughout india". First of all, you're the one who is attempting to commandeer the page for your own purposes. You have done so before and continue to do so now. You don't read up on the topics properly before commenting (i.e. Indian Astronomy and philosophy), and you make insinuations without merit. Using all of these you concoct the furthest possible fantasies to justify your conceits.

Tarn is quoted extensively by you, and you have used him as your basis for the statement. Regarding India, you have used Tarn's clear opinion (and not construction of facts) to drive this statement to appropriate Ashoka's legacy. Ashoka was born before your settlement, and indian sources clearly note otherwise. You have now both reason and a direct counter in the Ashokavadana. I don't see why your hero, Tarn, should be regarded as more privileged than reason and indigenous sources. Your insinuations amount to sneaky vandalism. You have done this before on other articles.

Lastly, please don't send your thug aldux to intimidate me. His charged comments and uncivil behavior stand against the community orientation of wikipedia, and pale only in comparison to his ignorance. Let us debate like people instead of using others to intimidate each other.

Regards,

Devanampriya

Thanks for the reply PHG. I dont believe I at any point talked about disregarding Greek sources - I did however note that Jain and Buddhist sources are closer to the subject matter, and infact rather reliable, seeing as they each saw portrayal of the truth to be consistent with their agnostic philosophies. I dont see how favoring them resembles censorship of Greek sources.

'"They are noted historians of the Hellenistic period, who, although arguably enthousiastic about Greek influence, are still highly respected, and still quoted extensively, regarding the ancient story of India."' - it is this sort of enthusiasm that until recently hid the nature of the Persian contribution to early history.

Colonial era British sources, and their immediate followers, tend to be biased, hence the comparison with the Nazi regime - i.e. its not in the interest of ruling parties to promote the culture of those they occupy, it is infact in their interest to disfavor the originality and influence of the culture they occupy - the example of Sir Mortimer Wheeler's immediate assumption about an 'Aryan invasion', based upon bodies that were not even located within the same strata of the Harappan ruins, (that has plagued Indian scholarship for 70 years), is a prudent example.

Im not that interested in where this article goes - its just that things should be made more clear for people who treat wikipedia as their primary source of information - else they take these accounts at face value. Unfortunatly, while the standard wiki response is 'do it yourself' - since I dont plan on contributing to this article in any way, I have to ask that those who are, take these sensitivities into account.

When writing about an important Indian dynasty, it is best to be familiar with Indian scholarship on the matter - I wouldnt dream of going into a Greek dynasty with ancient Indian and imperial Turkish accounts as my main backing. Im not saying 'dont do it' because I want to see this article be featured - and you are a skilled contributor PHG.

The Mauryans are my faovrite pre-Christ dynasty - ill enjoy seeing what you two, as well as others, do to improve the article - good luck! Vastu 18:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear PHG,

I noticed your comment regarding the marital alliance section and was a little disconcerted when you said. "Regarding the discussions on marital alliance, this is just relaying here some published analysis by Tarn, Marshall etc... It is clearly just one theory, and alternative views are very welcome." My understanding is that the purpose of an encyclopedia article is not to espouse every "theory" under the sun. The purpose is to allow a reader to develop a general understanding of the predominant academic consensus on an issue. Mentioning fringe theories does not enrich the article, it only elevates the credibility of various crackpot theories beyond their merit. And if you choose to discredit these fringe ideas later on in the article, what is the point of mentioning them in the first place? As far as I know, Ashoka's parentage as being of a Bhramin queen is not in any credible disupte. Claims to the contrary are, currently, little more than idle musings and unsubstantiated "what if" scenarios that can hardly be considered to merit mention. Cluttering up the article with all these random references to relatively unimportant theories only serves to make the article ponderous and unreadable. Keep it pithy and to the point.

By the way, just because some point you wish to say has a source does not mean it deserves to be mentioned in an article. I could cite Stephen Colbert as my source for all sorts of crazy claims, but just because I refute them later in the article does not mean it deserved to be in there in the first place. Such a practice of insinuation will only serve to enhance the credibility of biased viewpoints. It will not improve the integrity and informativeness of an article.

-Regards, Pavs Pavanapuram 01:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Pavs, thanks for the post. The fact that there was Epigamia is recognized by I think everybody, meaning either a dynastic alliance, or the recognition of marriage between Indians and Greeks. If it is a dynastic alliance, then there was intermarriage between the two dynasties, and of course Ashoka is a natural candidate as a result of such a union (first suggested by Tarn and Marshall). This is no crackpot theory, just a very straightforward inference from what Western sources say. Of course there is also the Ashokavadana tradition that Ashoka was born from a Brahmin woman, but not everything in the Ashokavadana can be taken at face value. There is no certainty here, and I think both accounts deserve representation. Regards PHG 20:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh please. Just because Tarn and Marshall mused about something does not mean it is the broad academic consensus on a topic, nor does it mean it deserves mention. There is nothing "natural" about Ashoka's candidacy. There is nothing there but blind speculation to even hint at it, just because you have a citation for the speculation doesn't mean it is anything less than speculation. Bindasura had a lot of children. (As many as 99 by some counts.) And the story goes that Ashoka had to go on quite a killing spree of his siblings in order to secure the throne. To say Ashoka was a "natural" candidate without any evidence to point to Ashoka above all his other siblings is patently absurd. Especially in light of the fact that contradictory sources, which actually specify his parentage, discredit it. To suggest otherwise with any measure of certainty is simply Grecophilia.

"Of course there is also the Ashokavadana tradition that Ashoka was born from a Brahmin woman, but not everything in the Ashokavadana can be taken at face value."

Oh please. I have seen you egregiously cherry pick obscure references from sources like the Gargi Samitha and Yuga Purana when it suits you. You didn't seem to have any qualms about taking sources at face value then. And even in those cases, your penchant for drawing conclusions based on independant research in this article, and others, is rather disconcerting.

Pavanapuram 23:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Pav. Please note I try to present both sides on the story as much as I can. On the Maurya-related page, I wrote both about the Ashokavadana (which did not even exist as an article and I created) and the Hellenistic tradition. I also created the articles for the Edicts of Ashoka, the Yuga Purana, the Hathigumpha inscription etc..., I created most of the graphic material on Indian art and artificats on these pages. I cannot understand your wish to select only one side of the story and eliminate the other. This is sad. History is a matter of debate with various theories. There is not "one truth". Your doubts about Ashoka's origins are legitimate, but the suggestion that he may have some Greek ascendency is also legitimate and has been published by major historians (didn't Ashoka even write edicts in Greek?). See also, "The Cambridge Shorter History of India", by J.Allan, p33: "If the usual oriental practice was followed and if we regard Chandragupta as the victor, then it would mean that a daughter or other female relative of Seleucus was given to the Indian ruler or to one of his sons, so that Asoka may have had Greek blood in his veins." Bottom line: this is referenced, published material by major historians, it has the right to be presented as per the Wikipedia philosophy. And if you don't like what these sources say, well, I can only be sorry for you, but please try to respect them at least. Regards. PHG 05:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

PHG; Select one side of the story and eliminate the other? Good God man you sound like a creationist! It's not a matter of selecting sides. It's a matter of mentioning theories that are broadly accepted and backed up with credible evidence. That means something from a direct source. The fact is, the only primary source that mentions Ashoka's mother says she was a Bhramin. The only claim that Ashoka's parentage is anything but that come from idle musings from historians. Even they do not bother to back up their claim with anything substantial. First of all, Chandragupta had many many sons as did Bindusara. To make such a claim requires relying on a whole bunch of half-baked assumptions. First you have to assume she was married to Bindusara and not Chandragupta or any of his other sons. Then you have to assume Ashoka was the product of that union and not of any of Bindasura's other kids. If I had concrete numbers as to how many uncles and siblings Ashoka had I'd calculate the odds out for you. But as it stands, they are simply not in your favour. I am sorry you find yourself unable to accept the only credible source with anything to say on the issue, but I am afraid you will just have to.

Pavanapuram 01:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

An edit war that leads to a locked article is in nobody's best interest - better to have a featured article than a locked one.

It is a shame that there is such stigma about 'bloodlines' in the world - something I doubt very much people in Ashoka's day would have cared about - but when a culture anywhere introduces the the fallic idea of purity, the cat is out of the bag, with everyone wanting to claim they were 'untouched'. The reality of course is very different - recognition of India's contribution to world culture is quite safe, but even if it wasnt, it is the open cultures, who do not believe in childish ideals like purity that have always been the most sucessfull, as they assimilate ideas from across the world. The idea of isolation is utterly fallic.

The British in the colonial era believed in long dead ideas of European racial superiority, and not so dead ideas of European intellectual superiority - this has left a permenent scar on the Indian psyche - we try to right the wrongs of the past with an equal and opposite nationalistic reaction. Same goes for other societies that have similar psychological scars, like China. Even people who know very well that the idea of purity is a complete child's dream, feel they must defend the originality of their culture simply because other people who do believe in these ideas will take a simple quote like 'he may have been partly Greek', and derive as much nationalistic fuel from it as they can.

I dont really see what is so bad about mentioning this possibility explicitly as a theory. Besides, Chandragupta was the greatest of the Mauryan Emperors - he was the Qin Shi Huang of India, and Chanakya was his Sun Tzu. Vastu 07:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Vastu; I agree completely. That is precisely why this little tidbit smells so sour to me. It seems to be plainly motivated by an attempt to appropriate Ashoka's parentage to aggrandize a particular race of people rather than letting the man's acheivements speak for themselves and the society he grew up in. So much so that the perpetrators would say such a thing in direct contradiction to all the primary sources on the topic.

Pavanapuram 01:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Vastu for your openness. I personnally think these instances of close interaction between the two faraway worlds of Greece and India (even on the religious and marital plans) are some of the most beautiful and in a sense "modern" events of Ancient History (don't we talk about the interaction of world cultures in the 20th century as a new phenomenon!). And it goes both ways: the contribution of India to the rest of the world is of course amazing (I wish we had more understanding of the impact of the "Buddhist missions" sent by Ashoka to the Mediterranean world). Regards PHG 12:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Since I presume Vastu's post was addressed to me, I am responding. I understand your concerns about page protection, but that was not requested by me. The concern here is that fringe theories are being presented as the mainstream one, instead of the alternate version. While our philhellenic contributor above notes that Ashoka wrote in greek, an absence of understanding is demonstrated here as greek and aramaic were the languages used to reach out to foreigners--who were common in that region--and neighboring states who utilized those languages. Darius wrote in babylonian (behistun rock), in spite of that fact that he was an ethnic persian. Regardless, the point is that we keep this as an unbiased page rather than an instrument to "give greeks their due in India". These articles should not be megaphones for individuals who wish to trumpet a culture everywhere. Since the stated goal here is to ensure the most accurate record of history possible, and this entry was not in line with that, I was forced to counter edit.

Clearly, no civilization is untouched (as the greeks owe much to the egyptians and persians, chinese to the indians, and really, everyone to almost everyone). But it is one thing to rely on mainstream accepted theories and another to rely on throwbacks to the colonial era.

When an exchange is being proposed, the burden of proof is on the proposing party. It is because there is a dearth of this, that mainstream scholarship rejects the Greek heritage of Ashoka as the main one (esp since Bindusara's wives and concubines were in no shortage, and the dates of marriage and birth do not match up). In the wake of these overwhelming reasons, why has the vast majority of the modern Indological community not accepted this? Because, the odds are not in its favor. So why is an insistence placed upon using this as main version?

The very credulity of the ashokavadana is being questioned by the contributor while at the same time, the divyavadana is relied on to no end in order to condemn the Sungas. It is this willingness to cherrypick that has concerned me and other contributors about the intent of this edit.

Vastu, I understand your desire to make this an FA through additional material and editing, but with such POV-laced material, our common goal remains unreached. Efforts, to improve this article and others like it (indo-geek map, etc) have been stifled without debate before.

The biggest concern here is that this theory is used to further the cause of an even more preposterous one--namely that Demetrius invaded on account of his being the only heir on hand (with Ashoka's hypothesized Seleucid bloodlines being the foundation for that). The incredulity of this further developed on account of the fact that he attacked the Indian King Subhagasena who himself was a mauryan heir. Just as the rig vedas were abused for AIT, the puranas are being abused for Greek Savior theories.

As a similar debate occurred for the origin of Chandragupta Maurya, and the solution that was accepted was a separate page to discuss such ideas, I have proposed just such a compromise. the philhellenic contributor above refuses to even address it let alone accept it. If all parties are interested in a compromise for accuracy's sake, than I am more than satisfied.

Regards,

Devanampriya

I am afraid this polemic is off the point. Please read again the paragraph about "Marital alliances" that you have been repeatedly deleting: it is only a discussion of the nature of the Epigamia treaty, as an example of the relations between the Greeks and the Mauryas. You will note that the described conjecture that a Seleucid princess was bethrothed to the Mauryas, either to Chandragupta or Bindusara is indeed mainstream and made by almost any historian I know of, and as far as I know it is also favoured by the India historical community. There is absolutely no reason to delete this.

Rather than the whole paragraph, I suppose that the phrase which offends you is "Ashoka, the son of Bindusara, also happens to have been born around the time this matrimonial alliance was sealed." This is just one phrase, which alludes to a supposition made by some scholars of Antiquity (Tarn, Marshall), in "The Cambridge Shorter History of India", and by several modern scholars (McEvilley, "The shape of ancient thought", 2002, p367, ISBN 1581152035: "Asoka may have been either one-half or one-quarter Greek"). Right after, it mentions the version of the Ashokavadana, which I think is quite balanced as an account, and that's it.

To answer your point, I do not think it is worth creating a new page just to address this one-phrase point. And I cannot believe just mentioning this one-phrase hypothesis is wrong.

Rather than erasing this whole paragraph, maybe a slight rephrasing could be done. Maybe you could qualify the Ashokavadana version as the "mainstream theory"? (with reference please, because I am not even sure this is true)... how about: "There is a possibility that Ashoka, who was born around the time this matrimonial alliance was sealed, was a fruit of this union (Tarn, Marshall, The Cambridge Shorter History of India p33), although the 2nd century account of the Ashokavadana (the only remaining ancient account of Ashoka's ancestry), describing Ashoka as the son of Bindusara with the daughter of a brahmin, is generally followed" PHG 22:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I havent been following this too closely, but it seems to me the solution is simple; wherever this threory is presented about Ashok's parentage, mention that the only source that even mentions his mother says Brahmin or whatever. This seems balanced. Pav is right about the primary source being the most important, but eliminating this theory is wrong. As Vastu put it, there isnt such a thing as purity in an inherently diverse world.

In reponse to PHG's note above:

Please read again the paragraph you have repeatedly been including in Ashoka. It rediscusses the entire point regarding Epigamia verbatim, and is a whole section in an already inordinate account of hellenistic relations. That is the reason for its deletion there.
Moreover, you note that every major historian has discussed this point about epigamia in the Maurya Empire article. Who is debating that point? And who deleted the entire paragraph? I specifically left the paragraphs which denotes that either intermarriage OR a dynastic alliance occurred and the corresponding primary text reference. What I deleted was the following speculation. We are debating about the Ashoka parentage theory: something which is not accepted by every major historian. And if it's only the ones you have read that note this, perhaps you should expand your reading list.
Maybe you should start off with Dr. Nilakantha Sastri who wrote the seminal work on the Mauryas in his The Age of the Nandas and Mauryas ed. Motilal Banarsidass. He notes how there is the inherent discrepancy between epigamia and kenos. Epigamia refers to the recognition of intermarriage where as kenos refers to the actual dynastic alliance. Nevertheless, I was not even contesting the interpretation of epigamia versus kenos. What I did note, was that one of the most respected and widely read and accepted scholars of Indian History pointed that out in the debate about dynastic alliance and how historians should not be irresponsible in how they interpret that, specifically, in speculating that the rulers of the empire were part greek. So Tarn's theory is clearly not the mainstream perspective. And is not even echoed by succeeding Indian historians.
The point we were debating was regarding whether Bindusara and Ashoka were products of such a union. And that is something that no historian is in a position to do(Ages of Bindusara and Ashoka not corresponding, plentiful wives and concubines for both, etc). As such, the Ashokavadana, in spite of your protests, is the mainstream theory, as it is the only account of Ashoka's birth that we have (and even provides the origin of his name). In fact, a balanced representation is not mentioning Tarn's theory every time and following up with the Ashokavadana, but rather, noting that the primary source is the accepted account, while not the existence of colonial and neocolonial theories.

    My biggest concern is that wikipedia is the primary source for many individuals and a truly accurate account is necessary. People have constantly misinterpreted and misread history with unfortunate consequence (i.e. naked indian female archers in Creative Assembly's Rome Total War follow up "Alexander"). Female bodyguards of harems and kings were interpreted to be battlefield units, with unfortunate consequences in the game. It appears that the same type of misinterpretation appears here again. That is the reason for my insistence on caution, and why it would be in the interest of avoiding such misinterpretation in the future by creating a separate page on theories of dynastic alliances. Such a page would be more appropriate for such speculation and not the main page of an article that millions read and learn from.

   Dr. Dinesh Agrawal published a paper on why there is reason to believe that Alexander was defeated at the Battle of the Hydaspes. However, it does not appear on the main page of the Alexander article, and I would not insist on it myself in spite of the fact that it is a citable source. This is for the simple reason that it is not widely accepted as a theory, and I would not want to misinform the reader into thinking it was (Note: This is not a comment on the scholarly value and veracity of Dr. Agrawal's work). That is the reason why precedence should not be given to the Tarn theory and why speculation should not occur on the main page.

Lastly, no one here is arguing for purity, so there is no need to debate that point. India is a racially, ethnically, religiously, culturally, and linguistically diverse country. All I seek is an accurate representation of its history.

Regards,

Devanampriya

I am afraid it is meaningless and unethical to insist on eliminating the mention of a significant historical theory (described in Tarn, Marshall, Mc Evilley or "The Cambridge Shorter History of India") on the nature of the alliance that occured. We would all learn a lot more if you put you mention of Dr. Nilakantha Sastri as a balance, with references, so that we can read his quotes and books. The mention is part of the "Relation with the Hellenistic world" section, where it has a very legitimate place indeed. By the way, I am not sure M.Mc Evilley, author of the 2003 "The Shape of Ancient Thought", would appreciate being called a "neocolonial theorist", whatever that means.

I would never qualify the Ashokavadana as "an accurate representation of history". It is just a great secondary source (written 5 centuries after the fact), that brings admittedly a strong presumption in favor of the "brahmin mother" theory, but certainly no unassailable proof. As far as I know, we are writing an encyclopedia, not a textbook for children, and an encyclopedia is only made richer by the addition of referenced sources, not by focusing on just one hypothetical thruth.

I suggest we finish the discussion here, I have proposed a compromise wording, and I don't see why there should be a big issue with this: "There is a possibility that Ashoka, who was born around the time this matrimonial alliance was sealed, was a fruit of this union (Tarn, Marshall, The Cambridge Shorter History of India p33, Mc Evilly), although the 2nd century account of the Ashokavadana (the only remaining ancient account of Ashoka's ancestry), describing Ashoka as the son of Bindusara with the daughter of a brahmin, is generally followed". Let's move to something more productive now. PHG 05:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.

Seems reasonable to me also; what counts is that both theories are presented, and since the Ashokavadana's narration appears to be the most popular, this preeminence should be mentioned.--Aldux 22:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I support this also. Vastu 02:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

PHG's material is biased and gives the wrong impression to readers about the ancestry of ashoka. Indigenous sources should not be tossed aside to suit colonial theories.

PHG,

I would never qualify the Ashokavadana as "an accurate representation of history". It is just a great secondary source (written 5 centuries after the fact)

Keep in mind that Strabo, Polybus, and Justin all wrote centuries after Alexander was pushing up daisies. If you're going to insist on twisting indigenous mentions of the Greeks to aggrandize them, you cannot, in good conscience, brush aside indigenous sources whenever they fail to comply with your Grecophilia. If every historian you've read dwells on this idle speculation, I humbly suggest you broaden your reading-list.

This may not be a children's book, but neither is it a platform for blowing minor fringe theories and the contributions of historical actors completely out of proportion when it suits you. The article is supposed to give readers an accurate understanding of the Mauryan Empire. It is not your soapbox to "give the greeks their due" or whatever.

Pavanapuram 20:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is brushing aside indigenous sources. On the contrary, I am the one who added the mention of the Ashokavadana here, and created the Ashokavadana article to back it up. As for indigeneous sources, I also created the Edicts of Ashoka article, the Hathigumpha inscription article, the Mahavamsa article, the Heliodorus pillar article, or the Yuga Purana article. And yes, all secondary sources have to be handled with some care and are generally not sufficient to reject alternative interpretations. Have you ever read the Ashokavadana? Its story of Pusyamitra Sunga's killing of Buddhist monks is an indication it might have been the case, but alternative theories according to which he sponsored Buddhism instead are current nevertheless. I am as "Graecophil" as I am Francophile, Japanophile or Indianophile. Let's stop this paranoia about Greek sources and the historical thought derived from them: history is made of multiple sources and theories, and Greek sources are some of the richest we have on the Maurya Empire. PHG 05:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

PHG,

It doesn't matter who mentioned the Ashokavadana, the point is the issue itself is not important enough to be mentioned at all. All it does is brings up a questionable theory and then debunks it with a more sound one a few sentences later. It is not an issue that is so hotly debated that any understanding of the Mauryan Empire would be incomplete without knowing it. We are not trying to recreate every debate about Indian history in these articles. We are trying to give people a quick and dirty, yet comprehensive understanding of the subjects they research here.

All this mention does though, is inflates the influence of fringe theories beyond their merit and fails to enrich the reader's understanding of the Mauryan Empire in any significant way. It would be analogous to me going into an article about Charles Darwin to say that

"Pastafarians believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster created life as we know it. But leading scientists contend that. . .

I still say your use of sources in such a way is highly questionable. Why do we get to mention a fringe theory about Ashoka's parentage when it gets to boost the rep of the Greeks, but dismiss Dinesh Agrawal's reading of classical texts concluding that Alexander was defeated at the Hydaspes? I don't think Dinesh Agarwal's reading should be in the Alexander article precisely because it is not a significant or hotly debated issue. Likewise, this should not be here.

Pavanapuram 03:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, no need to get excited there, PHG. I think the previous contributor was just pointing out that if you can't take it, don't dish it out; after all, the whole bias accusation bit did begin with you. Also, it does seem like you do praise indigenous sources such as the yuga purana and mahabharata when it suits (in spite of the fact that their intrepretation of greeks to mean yavanas has been disputed--as noted by scholars such as klaus karttunen), and deprecate them when it does not. Your point about the Ashokavadana is noted, bearing in mind that the possible exaggeration about Pushyamitra was a mechanism intended to note the decline of buddhist patronage, and not as a fable of Ashoka's birth. Lastly, just so that we're clear, the mainstream view is the brahmin mother theory and not the seleucid ancestry bit. As the other contributors have noted, preeminence should be given to that.

Don’t worry, Nilakantha Sastri and other respectable sources are on there way. By the way, you are not a citeworthy scholar, so your opinion about the Ashokavadana is irrelevant. It is a primary source, and should not be brushed aside because it does not suit you.

As the sysop below noted, the Hellenistic relations section is inordinate. Your point is mistaken. The Ashoka and Mauryan articles are not a playground for your Hellenic interests. Represent history properly and proportionally.

As for the importance of this edit, it has been disputed by some that this is a relatively minor point; however, it is important to recognize that there have been repeated attempts by PHG to deify the indo-greeks as saviors of India from Indians. He has attempted to construct an image of the greeks only engaging in military action for altruistic purposes (such as saving Buddhism), when in reality, greeks, like all other peoples, we driven by expanding territory, increasing wealth, etc. This gives a false and detrimental impression of history. This point about Ashoka’s ancestry is one more nail in that platform, meant to show how Demetrius must have only invaded because he had a claim to the mauryan throne (preposterous since Subhagasena, the Indian king of the Kabul Valley whom Demetrius defeated, was actually of the royal line, and a more legitimate claimant anyway). That is called sneaky vandalism as the most far-fetched theory is conjured up to create a false impression of history.

Anyhow, in the interest of resolving this dispute so that other contributors can add on to the page, the following rephrase is recommended:

"While the marriage arrangement has led some to speculate that Ashoka may have been a product of this, the scholarly consensus is that Ashoka was born from a Brahmin mother who was a minor queen of Bindusara” (cite Ashokavadana)

Regards,

Devanampriya

I certainly do not share these rhetorics (most of all, we are not here to pick which theory should be presented or not in Wikipedia, as long as we are talking about published material from reputable sources, as per as WP:V), but I am absolutely fine with a compromise statement (my own proposal above as well). I suggest slight modifications for neutrality of language and referencing:

"The marriage arrangement has led some to suggest that Ashoka may have been a product of this union (cite Cambridge Shorter History of India, Mc Evilley), although the general view is that Ashoka was born from a Brahmin mother who was a minor queen of Bindusara, based on the account of the Ashokavadana (quote Ashokavadana)."

By the way, it is not Demetrius who encountered Subhagsena but Antiochos III, about 30 years before (and there is no record of a fight, only a "renewal of friendship", and the reception of elephants and presents (Polybius 11.39)).

Regards PHG 08:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I am aware of Subhagasena and Antiochus, as I do believe I pointed out Polybius' words to you when you referred to a Military Campaign by him. See John Keay regarding Demetrius's encounter, after all, your bactrian friend did conquer the Kabul Valley. I believe this is also echoed by bopearachchi.

Devanampriya

[edit] Languages Section

I just noticed underneath the map it lists Greek and Aramaic as languages of the empire. What's that about? I'm just curious as to whether we can deign to figure out some sort of standard to distinguish between a language of the empire from a language spoken in the empire. It wouldn't just be for this article, but for pretty much every empire in the ancient world seeing as how these empires generally spanned a large variety of languages and cultures. Pavanapuram 02:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion and lack of

Carvaka was also a major force in this period - I get the impression it was at least as powerfull as the Jain community. Ajivika was an early sect not unlike Buddhism and Jainism. Some theorise that Bindusara was a member of it. Upanishadic philosophy and Hindu reform should also be mentioned. It is interesting that out of all the classical civilizations, India is the only one where an atheistic/agnostic system had such influence - even in Greece, the major religious community opressed atheistic philosophers. Vastu 10:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

I quicky added a couple of maps - Chandragupta's conquests, Bindusaras conquests, and Ashokas conquests, plus Magadha under the Shungas - they may need formatting or editing though. Vastu 19:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Vastu. Great maps. Additionallly, I think it would be nice to have a view of the territorial situation just before the advent of the Shunga. At present, the last map seems to show the terrotory of the Sungas themselves, which somewhat falls beyond the scope of the article. Regards PHG 05:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

My thinking behind that was that the map of Magadha before the Mauryas seemed to show the extent of the Nanda or Shishunga dynasty (although I have seen some maps of the Nanda dynasty that give their size at almost that of the Shungas) - however I have removed the Shunga one for the reasons you mentioned - i.e. the Shungas actually slightly expanded their rule after the collapse of the last Mauryan king. I think it will be difficult finding an accurate depiction of the extent of post-Ashoka rulership, as historical records deteriorated after his phase, so I dont think I will be able to create a map for that time period - so its probably best to stick with the current four. Good luck on the rest of the article :-) Vastu 10:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical Comparison?

This section is bristling with inaccuracies- For one, the Qin were not the first empire of China, but alos it strikes me as some sort of attempt by an Indian patriot to embiggen his history by China-bashing... For Shame...

The first rulers to cover the majority of the geographical area of the two countries were Qin and Chandragupta respectively. Your immediate assumption of bad faith tells me you are a nationalist, so, in your own words - for shame.

I've removed this section because it's blatantly POV and unnecessary. I'm not even Chinese and I find it offensive! The general tone of the piece reads as India>China.

([[User:Giani g|Giani g]] 05:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Concerns about undue weight

I don't support the excising of the information, but I feel we should get more info from Buddhist oriented sources or Jain sources to make it bigger. Because it does seem as though there is not much detail about Ashoka and Buddhism and Ashoka the conqueror, and the same in the Maurya Empire - at the moment there is lots of information about the Greek connection, which inherently there is nothing wrong, but it may give the impression that Ashoka was a Greek reprentative or something - it just feels a bit too oriented on his bloodline and not what he nor the Mauryans achieved. In any case it was interesting that I got Mahinda (his son, who brought Buddhism to Sri Lanka) and Moggaliputta-Tissa (his spiritual adviser) to DYK in the week leading up to the locking - could we put more stuff about Buddhism into the articles to balance it out as well as his stuff about the Kalinga conquest etc. The Greek stuff is still interesting of course and I don't see a reason to cull it unless there is POV or weaselly stuff compromising it. Anything this old, of course cannot be certain, so as long as we give both a fair hearing then it should work out OK. This could be an interesting case as I am interested in learning more about Asoka. Perhaps I can find more about his Indian activity (religion and miltary) to balance it out. Tell me what you think. Thanks, Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 06:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not like culling would constitute censorship. There is a lot of redundancy between the information here and elsewhere, like the Ashoka page and the Indo-Greeks page.

That and having these sections of Hellenistic relations taking up half the article just seems kind of silly. The way it's written one would think the Indo-Greeks constituted the major regional superpower and all other kingdoms in the area were defined by their relationships to them. This is far from the reality.

This would be analogous to an encyclopedia article about the United States going into ponderous detail about our diplomatic ties with Canada. Sure Canada is a nice country, but in all honesty, it is not all that important to understanding what America is all about.

It would make a lot more sense to put all this information in a seperate article on "Hellenistic relations with Indian states" and just link to it from elsewhere when appropriate.

Pavanapuram 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British

The link in the third paragraph goes to a disambiguation page, it should be relinked to the british empire. See British if you think it should relink somewhere else.Sam Hayes 13:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient India

The link to Ancient India in the first line leads to a disambiguation page. I tried to fix this earlier before noticing the protected status. Might I reccomend to the powers that be that the link lead to History of India instead? = KaoB e ar^(talk) 13:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Undue weight to Chanakya and detailed biographies of Chandragupta's usurpation

This article gives undue weight to a character rarely even mentioned in any reliable historical sources on India.

are there any Greeks even talking about the great wiley Chanakya going around trying to start wars and advising Chandragupta Maurya? No. They do mention Nandas indirectly, and Sandracotus by name. We don't even know who Chandragupta was, except that since he was a competant general, he must've already been a military man. Beyond that it is pure speculation...--216.254.121.169 16:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC) --216.254.121.169 16:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organization

The article stubs seem to be rather raw; it bounces from "India's first empire" to "bindusara" and seems rather disjunctive. I suggest streamlining the intro paragraph (which should contain key points), moving on to "Preceding Magadhan dynasties" (ie Shisunagas and Nandas), "India's first Empire", and restrained paragraphs on Chandragupta, Bindusara, and Ashoka. If you are a regular contributor or interested reader, let me know what you think. I will hold off for a week before making changes.

Regards,

Devanampriya —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Devanampriya (talk • contribs) 07:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Languages in Mauryan Empire

The discussion has been moved to Template talk:Maurya Empire infobox [2]

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Talk:Maurya Empire

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Contents

[edit] Edit

[edit] Espionage

[edit] Mauryan Empire v. Mauryan Dynasty

[edit] Rename; Mauryan to Maurya

[edit] Map

[edit] Merge

[edit] Regarding the Hellenistic Relations section

[edit] Languages Section

[edit] Religion and lack of

[edit] Maps

[edit] Historical Comparison?

[edit] Concerns about undue weight

[edit] British

[edit] Ancient India

[edit] Undue weight to Chanakya and detailed biographies of Chandragupta's usurpation

[edit] Organization

[edit] Languages in Mauryan Empire

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