User talk:Mattley

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[edit] Welcome to the Wikipedia

Welcome, newcomer!

Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Wikipedia experience:


Also, here are some odds and ends that I find useful from time to time:

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.

You can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~.

Best of luck, and have fun!

ClockworkTroll 13:50, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks - and a question

Posted on User:ClockworkTroll

Thanks for your welcome note. Much appreciated. A question: I have started off a number of articles including British Seafarers' Union, National Union of Seamen and Amalgamated Marine Workers' Union. This was probably a little ambitious for a newbie, but I think they will develop well and will make a contribution. My question is, why don't they show up when I type them into the search box? Mattley 16:21, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi, Mattley. Ambition is a good thing. After all, if you find that you get in over your head, there is always somebody around that is willing to help. As for your new articles, they don't appear in the search because the search (except for the first character) is case-sensitive. I would recommentd that you do one of two things:
  1. Create a new redirect page at (for example) Amalgamated marine workers union that points to Amalgamated Marine Workers' Union. (That way, both listings are perfectly good, so this is probably the best option)
  2. Click the "move" tab at the top of the article, and relist it under a title that would make it more searchable.
Hope that helps, and thank you for your contributions!

[edit] British Trade Unions

Hi Steinsky. Thanks for adding the categories bit to National Union of Ship's Stewards and Amalgamated Marine Workers' Union. I just wondered, did they seem okay to you? I'm new at this and whilst I've read and partially digested the rules I'm still nervous that I'm screwing up the whole thing. I created those two, by the way, though apparently I wasn't signed in at the time. Cheers, Mattley

The articles look good, one possible addition would be references if you have any.. Joe D (t) 17:12, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. I do indeed have some and I will build them in. On another topic, I note you have done some stuff on Bristol Harbour. I'd like to contribute some articles on the Port of Southampton and the Port of Glasgow. Do you think it would be worth creating a category of 'Ports and harbours of Great Britain and Ireland' or some such? It could be a nice series. All the best, Mattley 17:20, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That's a good idea, if you create the category I'll help populate it. I was in So'ton on Friday and am currently preparing photos of the port etc for wikipedia.

You were? Cool. Okay. Where were you planning to put the photos? I don't want to tread on your toes or duplicate work if you already had something planned. On the other hands, ports seem poorly covered and I'd be happy to make a start redressing that. My interest is mainly historical, however, and would have a hard time sustaining an article past 1930. If you have stuff on Southampton's more recent history, many that wouldn't be a big problem. Cheers, Mattley 18:08, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I didn't have any plans to write about the docks, I was just adding photos to River Itchen, River Test and Southampton Water. These are the photos of the docks, which may be of use for illustrating your article:
Soton river test docks 01.jpg
Image:Soton docks 01.jpg
Joe D (t) 18:13, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Exceptional Newcomer Award

I, ClockworkTroll, award you the Exceptional Newcomer Award for displaying exceptional enthusiasm, skill, and boldness beyond your experience
I, ClockworkTroll, award you the Exceptional Newcomer Award for displaying exceptional enthusiasm, skill, and boldness beyond your experience

I've been looking over your articles, and they definitely show promise beyond your experience here at Wikipedia! Therefore I, ClockworkTroll, am proud to award you with the Exceptional Newcomer Award. ClockworkTroll 17:24, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thesis topic

I note that on your user page you indicate that you're reading for a Ph.D. May I ask what your thesis topic is? Psychonaut 22:44, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sure. A title isn't finalised yet but it will cover strike action and trade union development amongst merchant seamen in Southampton and Glasgow from 1910 to 1926. It will be the first full-length study of the British Seafarers' Union and Amalgamated Marine Workers' Union. It will also differ quite a bit from most 'trade union' histories in that it will emphasise the role played by ordinary seafarers in strike action and the tensions existing between union officials and rank and file activists.
I could go on...
Incidentally, your username seems familiar. Do you contribute to SPGB-related forums by any chance? Mattley 22:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I don't contribute much, but I try to read them when I get the chance. And you? Psychonaut 21:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] History of British Newspapers

How could we have omitted the Daily Herald? Thanks for rectifying that - I remember it well when I was a young lad! Bruce, aka Agendum | Talk 23:27, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Strathkelvin People's Independent Labour Party

Hi there Mattley. Got your comments about the article. Would love to add what you request, but that seems a bit unclear just now. They have only just announced their formation, so that might become clearer soon - so until then I cannot really add anything about what they want to contest.

Sorry about that. I think it will need to be a work in progress.

Big Jim

Fair enough. It was a bit of an excuse to introduce myself, in a way. I've come across your name in a few of the articles I've looked at or made edits to. You might be interested in what I've added at Manny Shinwell.

Hi again Mattley. Looked at the Manny Shinwell article. It's looking in pretty good shape these days - nice work. What sort of areas are you interested in working on Wikidpedia then?

[edit] I've been nominated

I just wanted to drop you a quick note to say that I've been nominated for adminship. Since you've been unfortunate enough to have dealings with me, I thought you might want to see what was going on there: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/ClockworkTroll.

Many thanks, ClockworkTroll 07:44, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] A quick note to say thanks

Image:WikiThanks.png

I just wanted to drop you a quick note to thank you for your support in my request for adminship. It was certainly a wild ride, and I really appreciate you taking some time out to contribute. ClockworkSoul 16:30, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Farmers' Union of Wales

(Farmers' rather than Farmers! My bad, corrected.)
I was guided by a few things in renaming the article:

  • I don't believe I've yet seen a bilingual organizational title in Wikipedia, even in cases where a group has names in two languages on an equal footing.
  • At the en. wikipedia, English should take precedence if they're at least equal, just as Welsh would rule at cy.wikipedia.org.
  • On the FUW website, FUW also seems to take precedence - it's the core of the logo used on both the English and Welsh sides
  • Does the organization literally call itself "Farmers' Union of Wales / Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru" or some form including both names at once with any frequency in either language? If not, it probably shouldn't be the title.

So that's what I was thinking. Of course, better judgement, evidence and time might always show me wrong... Samaritan 12:01, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Communism Talk page

Sorry for the ? mark mess. Maybe it was me when I added the skyscraper paragraph. I certainly did not do it consciously. My apologies. Luis rib 21:04, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

Sorry, as I tried to put your picture back, you had already done it Lectonar 10:26, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Mattley, thank you for reverting the horrible vandalism on my talk page. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 20:25, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move !!

You have been on Wikipedia long enough. You ought to know the difference between a move and a copy-and-paste. C&p loses the history and should be avoided wherever possible. A move preserves edit history - and is simpler to execute! (Re panty trust - not important in that case - but it is the principle of the thing.) -- RHaworth 18:07:34, 2005-09-10 (UTC)

[edit] Labor/Labour History

Your essay on labor history discipline is pretty good; I think you should call it "Labour Historiography" which will explain its British cast. I have indeed been following the labor historiography in USA and would be glad to suggest some items. I did a little work on John R. Commons just the other day, and need to say more on his role as historian. As well mention people like Taft and then the new labor history folks (Gutman, Montgomery, Brody, Dubofsky, etc ... I know them personally. Rjensen 12:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Labor history (discipline)

You wrote on my page: I see that you have worked recently on Labor history of the United States. I have been working on Labor history (discipline) about the development of labour history as an academic subject. If you have anything to contribute, especially about how labor history has developed in the US, I'd be grateful. Mattley 11:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Mattley, I simply regurgitate what I am reading at the time, I don't know enough about Labor history (discipline) to write about it--if I do later, I will happily add info. I would talk to Jmabel, who also contriuted to Labor history of the United States. Travb 14:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I've been meaning to thank you for the cat. Sadly, I don't think I know enough to contribute anything useful to the subject, though I find it interesting enough that I would like to know more. Maybe if I can find the time (yeah, right). All the best - Guettarda 17:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Labor unions, African-Americans and rodents

Hi. This really isn't my area of expertise. I'm afraid I can't add much other than the usual tales of discrimination, of how blacks were not allowed to join white unions and formed their own -- and of the antagonism and sometimes violence between black and white laborers. I suppose I could do a little research and specificy some of that info -- but I really don't have time at the moment, and won't until well after the first of the year. But maybe a few months from now I'll get around to it. Increasingly, Wikipedia is boring me.

Your squirrel photo and caption gave me a laugh. Obnoxious little buggers, aren't they? I used to feed one on my study balcony. Then one day, I was in my office (wa-ay at the other end of a 30-foot living room and one set of rooms over, when I heard this gawdawful banging. Upon investigation, it was that rotten little rodent doing flips from the balcony railing, hurling him/herself against the glass -- his (her?) way of demanding to be fed. When I refused to comply, the disgusting little specimen started trying to chew his way through the wooden sashes. The following spring, I realized a squirrel had made a nest in one of my flower pots and covered it with leaves. Upon investigation, I found the bodies of three -- count 'em three -- dead, baby squirrels. (Erlch!) Squirrels? Hell, scroom! :p Peace. deeceevoice 16:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Communism

Why are other revisions of communism included but not a version of communism that has the most free market oriented region on the planet?

Of course this is contradictory to communism as the original theory, but so was Lenninsim...which is included.

Mattley - can you revert to the last good version for Communism please - I've used my three reverts against it already. -- Natalinasmpf 19:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


Won't you guys discuss this or does the logic of my statement have you guys by the...? Seriously, can you socialists function without distorting information or ignoring it all together? (Gibby 23:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC))


Really you should quit coming up with excuses because they are all logically flawed and just accept the section and then help make the section better. (Gibby 23:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Issues of Wiki Etiquette

Hi Mattley. Recently, you asked Gibby to remove some items from his personal page. I would like the discussion to stay focused on NPOV, bias in content, etc. rather than be sidetracked on issues of etitquette. Therefore, I'd like to help resolve the issue you have with Gibby's personal page. If you could clarify which items you would like removed, I would be happy to relay that information to Gibby, together with an expression of my opinion that it would be helpful in keeping the discussion focused on substantive issues, if these items were removed from his page. (BostonMA 12:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Hi Mattley. I have posted a response to your reply on my own talk page. (BostonMA 18:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Gateshead Millennium Bridge Link

D'oh. I will remember to check the links I correct to make sure I correct them properly... IainP (talk) 23:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed WikiProject – Organized Labour

Hi Mattley, I see you have an interest in Labour and I was hoping I could convince you to look at my proposed project: Proposed WikiProject – Organized Labour. I'm willing to do the work to set up the project, but I'd like to find others like yourself who can provide some depth to things. Cheers.--Bookandcoffee 02:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest Mattley. I was nervous starting this, as I have a bit of a learning curve (re both WikiProjects and Labour), but I think it will work well.--Bookandcoffee 23:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I can help supply all sorts of great arguements and citations for the harmful effects of organized labor. I'd love to help! ^_^ (Gibby 17:31, 12 January 2006 (UTC))

Sure. If you can contribute enclopedic information that is not original research, reflects a neutral point of view, cites sources and is well-written - and if you can manage to interact with other editors without making personal attacks or gratuitously rude comments and without edit-warring or disrupting wikipedia to prove a point, then by all means go ahead and help! Based on your contributions and conduct so far, I'm sure you'll understand if I don't hold my breath. Note that the Organised Labour wiki-project has been started and developed by a third party who has had no interaction with you. Do not disrupt it to get back at me. Mattley (Chattley) 20:37, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like you think there is a shortage of material (or that it is all pov original research) that gives empirical evidence for the harmful effects of things such as unions and minimum wages etc. (Gibby 20:13, 13 January 2006 (UTC))

Not at all. As a council communist I am highly sceptical of the benefits of trade unions. And as for the minimum wage - well, I favour the abolition of the wages system - and I regard limited intiatives like the minimum wage as ambiguous at best. Of course, those are just my personal opinions, and I won't be running around wikipedia trying to shoe-horn them into as many articles as possible. Mattley (Chattley) 11:39, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Telling someone a section is needed before certain material should be viewed then deleting that section once put in place is a textbook example of How to Rule the Wiki page. That was a total bullshit move on your part.

And btw, the minimum wage is harmful to low skilled workers, it increases unemployment, and the lack of a wage system is a very stupid idea (to be nice about it)...people don't work for their own health. I have noticed that communists of all sorts have the most perverse, perverted, and incorrect views on economics that is possible. (Gibby 19:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC))


I dont think i'm the one who needs the education. I know enough about communism to know that given the rational behavior of humans, is unworkable beyond a few altruistic people like yourself...well you could always kill your opponents and force others to join you at the barrell of a gun, but that kinda defeats your whole point doesnt it? (Gibby 20:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] KDRGibby

The request for arbitration concerning this user has been filed at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#KDRGibby. You may, or may not, want to make a statement. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 10:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trade union

Hi Mattley. I was thinking that I never thanked you for leaving your start to this article at my sandbox. I wish I had asked you to have a look at what I did before I left a note on the Trade union talk page saying I wanted to put it there. Would you be interested in looking at it and seeing if it was worth putting up? Feel free to make any changes you want. Cheers. --Bookandcoffee 06:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey thanks Mattley. I think being too busy to work on Wikipedia is a good sign. Means you have a life :) I like your idea about the London Dock Strike, that's be great to see a feature article. --Bookandcoffee 17:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of trade unions by industry

I was thinking about your User:Mattley/List of trade unions by industry. Would you be interested in integrating it with the category system? I'd like to expand the categories for unions and that includes "by industry". What about making the article into sections like you have, and then providing a short overview of that industry's relation to unions, and putting a [[Category:Unions in Docks and road transport|List of unions in Docks and road transport]] link to the category list?


  • Category:Trade unions
    • Category:International union federations
      • Category:Each international sub-category
        • Category:Each National trade council sub-category<--- identical cat with below.
          • Trade unions
    • Category:Trade unions by country
      • Category:Each country sub-category
        • Category:Each National trade council sub-category<--- identical cat with above.
          • Trade unions
    • Category:Trade unions by industry
      • Category:Each industry sub-category
        • Category:Each country sub-category (optional)
          • Trade unions

Essentially, each trade union (with exceptions of course) would need only two types of categories - by National trade council and by industry (or industries).

I guess there are advantages and disadvantages with this. Using categories means no annotation and no red links on the list, but I like categories because they help centralize all the info about one article.

Off the top of my head I seem to remember there is a trick for showing sub-pages on a main page, maybe that could be used as well and the cat lists would show up as regular lists on the page? Cheers. --Bookandcoffee 00:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

You sound like you know where you're headed with the Historical Dictionary. My only thought was to enlist the help of the library staff here in Vancouver (they're quite helpful).
On a personal note, I laughed - I think it's pretty clear that you spend considerably more time thinking about content, while I'm mostly focussed on process for now. My suggestions are about how to do things, and yours are about what to include. I appreciate you patience. (and content) :) Cheers. --Bookandcoffee 19:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ISCO-88

I spent some time at the library today, and after a few false starts this is what I came up with: International Standard Classification of Occupations. It's maintained by the ILO and is, as the title says, a complete classification. I think it would work really well - in fact I'd like to create the entire framework as a category system. I think it would be useful for several reasons, not the least of which is its authority. (I'm poking around to see about copyright.)

Within the categories it would be simple to hang "Trade unions in foo" sub-categories, and link them as a framework within the framework. From your list we could just link as required. What do you think? --Bookandcoffee 02:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Or maybe International Standard Industrial Classification of all Economic Activities (ISIC) is closer to the mark...--Bookandcoffee 07:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Morality

Try and pay attention for once. I said I accepted your dictonary's definition I also said you are, and seemed to be, conflating amoral to mean not moral as in immoral.

As far as economics being amoral, it certainly used to be. Socialists and communists gained the upper hand by looking toward morality to guide prefrences and arguements while ignoring rationality and economic reasoning. Free market advocates can counter with amoral arguements which are hard for the average emotional human to accept or mention that certain communist socialist policies are utter exploitation of humans.

I dont expect you to understand amoral economic reasoning, anything and everything to you will likely have some moral background, or at least you'll think so and thus conflate it with an amoral arguement, such as the role of free wages or the reason for child labor, or why income inequality is nothing to worry about, or how trade deficits are neither good nor bad... (Gibby 06:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC))

"The term amoral is distinct from the terms moral and immoral, and simply refers to the state of lacking any moral characteristics. An amoral act is not morally good nor is it morally bad - it simply is. An amoral man is one who has no conception of morality or moral judgments"

Economics is an amoral science, again, at least microeconomics is and economics was. Leftists turned to making moral judgements and moral arguements which in a sense could be one variable in explaining how they went so wrong. Laugh all you want, but your own ignorance is no laughing matter, as Hayek made this observation. (Gibby 15:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)) I think you'll be the one embarrased once you get clued in as attacking people like this becomes really embarrasing when your wrong. Economics is amoral. Economics is not about creating jobs or feeding families or getting a fair wage, economics is about directing factors effeciently, it is about supply, demand, and consumption. Economies are not created to make people jobs, feed people, or to sustain a minimum living standard, economies are in place so producers make profits and consumers consume, economies are in place to effeciently direct factors of production.

Oh, and I've already listed economis on the issues you know nothing about...you are afterall a communist and being a communist requires a denial of all emperical evidence proven by economic science. (Gibby 15:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC))

I figured it out. You have to deny that economics is amoral because you would look extremely stupid otherwise when you complain that globalization is a US capitalist created conspiracy theory to dominate and Americanize the entire world. (Gibby 15:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC))

[edit] leftist economics

can you put up disputed tags for me. As you can see, even before the block I disputed the wording of the section. I was banned for 4 reverts of removing original research (uncited pov and factually incorrect material). Please place tags for me, thanks. (Gibby 11:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC))

[edit] RE: Labor etc

I went through AlbertW and looked for all the inappropriate changes I could find. I think I got them all. Feel free to check.--Bkwillwm 17:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] assessment department

Hi Mattley. I've been working on the new org. labour assessment department - and I just wanted to touch base with you. I've been marking up the Category:Trade unions of the United Kingdom articles, and have of course, come across many of your articles. I've taken a stab at rating them, but I'm going through them at a pretty fair clip, so they may not be ratings that you always agree with. By all means, feel free to change any that you think are not appropriate. I was thinking about your earlier comments about short articles, and that sometimes a short article is all that is required. I've tried to keep that im mind. :) Cheers. Chris --Bookandcoffee 04:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

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