Talk:Matthew F. Hale

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Contents 1 Neo-Nazi 2 2004 vs 2005 3 Should it be pointed out 4 Public life before Creativity 5 The only book he wrote 6 Homosexuality 7 Solicitation 8 Bradley University

[edit] Neo-Nazi

If you want to call him a neo-nazi, cite someone calling him that, but don't place it in the narrative. He and his followers seem to take the term as an insult, and it is not neutral to refer to them as such. "White supremacist" or nationalist or whatever is clear enough. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:54, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Do you have a source for Hale or his followers objecting to Neo-Nazi? He has been called a "neo-nazi" by many sources. [1][2][3][4] Cheers, -Willmcw 13:11, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

And giving the Nazi salute: [5] -W.

Hehe, I almost choked when I saw the Southern Poverty Law Center. If you want the phrase included in the article, you'll have to do far better than cite "advocacy" organizations like that. The other cites are equally biased (one suggests racism is due to genetic deficiency!). The photo is much better evidence, but not sufficient to call him a neo-nazi IMO, w/o some sort of neutral corroboration. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 14:29, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And what is the bias of the Pittsburgh Post Gazette? They are a major newspaper. -Willmcw 20:40, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, it is not Hale who is being called a neo-nazi in this article, it is the Creativity Movement that gets the label. -Willmcw 20:43, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 2004 vs 2005

Am I crazy? I read about his sentencing today (4/6/05) but the article says 2004? --Feitclub 20:58, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

you're not crazy...http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050406/ap_on_re_us/white_supremacist_trial_7 it's 2005

[edit] Should it be pointed out

That neither Hale nor the Creativity Movement was responsible for the Lefkow murders? It was a great example of media sensationalism. Most newspaper stories spent half the damn time talking about Hale, and when it was discovered that his people hadn't done it, it became a footnote. --Edward Wakelin 00:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the mistaken assumption was so widepsread that it deserves at least a sentence or two. Maybe tacked on to the end of the Lefkow section. Go for it. -Willmcw 05:30, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Done. Not sure how it sounds PoV-wise, but it WAS media sensationalism. Couple murders? Yeah, that'll sell some papers. CRAZY NAZIS? BREAK OUT THE LARGE PRINT!--Edward Wakelin 20:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Then find a source that says so. Phrases like "This can most likely be blamed on media sensationalism" do not belong in Wikipedia. -Willmcw 21:18, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I'm searching... Problem is, it's hard to get the media to criticise itself, eh? (2 minutes later) Can't find squat, unless there's gonna be links to racist websites. This is the usual media thing: Crude sensationalism, page 1, screamer font, correction, page 5, 10 pt. --Edward Wakelin 03:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Wow.

It is absolutely ludicrous to be outraged about 'media sensationalism' in this case. Hale and his cohort had made numerous threats on Lefkow's life and, at the time of the murders, Hale had already been convicted of soliciting her murder (he was awaiting sentencing). I submit that it doesn't require a terribly huge leap in logic, let alone sweeps-week-fueled sensationalism, to suspect his involvement. Indeed, the media aside, rational people everywhere figured there was a solid chance that Hale had something to do with it.

Granted, Edward, this may not have been a big story in Toronto until someone was killed, but here in Chicago, Hale and his "church" had been big news for years, beginning with Hale protege Benjamin Smith's two-state rampage in '99 and peaking with Hale's plot to have Lefkow, a federal judge need I remind you, murdered (for which he has since been sentenced to a 40-year prison term). I assure you, he was already firmly in our consciousness—and of his own accord. This was hardly a case of a non-story ginned up by the dailies.

That you describe this as a mere "couple murders" in the first place seems fairly telling. This was a matter of the deliberate targeting of a federal judge for murder—which is a fairly important story any day of the week, regardless of context or apparent suspects. 75.21.71.240 17:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Public life before Creativity

The article currently doesn't mention his (I think) brief involvement with a large Nazi political group, followed by his splitting and founding his own political party, prior to being part of the World Church of the Creator. The time between him being "independent" and being a "Creativist" is key to understanding what he was attempting, IMO. This was around 1992-1996, I believe. --Closeapple 22:11, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The only book he wrote

Would there be any value in providing a link to the only book he ever wrote? It is a book on 911. http://www.solargeneral.com/911/WTC_1page.pdf It has been claimed over 100,000 copies of this book were downloaded since 2002 by the solargeneral.com webalizer report.

Well since it's about how the Jews were responsible for 9/11 and drags out thoroughly debunked and ridiculous lies about this you would guess no, there is no value in it. 220.233.94.28 13:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexuality

I deleted the "He has now become a practicing homosexual", since it does not include any kind of source to that claim. If someone wants to insult this guy, let's leave it out of the wikipedia. (Can't find my password, so sorry :P)

[edit] Solicitation

I don't want to get into an edit war over a lunactic like Hale but it should be pointed out that the "solicitation" was Hale's responses of "I don't want want anything to do with it" and "you do what you want but I don't have anything to do with it" to constant solicitations made to kill the judge by a paid government infiltrator/agent provacotour named Tony Ebola over a 2 year period. Tommypowell 22:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

No the "solicitation" was the criminal statute he was convicted of based on evidence supporting that charge which included recordings. You won't have to worry about an edit war. If you were to attempt to modify the presentation of a settled case with such original research, without references, that will just be deleted, not edited. 220.233.94.28

[edit] Bradley University

What range of dates did Matt Hale attend Bradley University? It says he attended in 1993 and got his degree, but it seems unlikely he'd be able to get a 4 year degree in 1 year. I attended the University around that time, and want to say he graduated in 1993, but I'm not certain. --Mr z 03:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)