Talk:Matsuo Bashō

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Contents 1 Greatest writers 2 Title of article 3 Reference to Mastuo Munefusa 4 Basho as haiku poet 5 Italics 6 "wabi/sabi" 7 Rewrite 8 Names 9 Bibliography 10 GA failed 11 Link to Spanish translation, and to Japanese 12 Yes, citations are missing

[edit] Greatest writers

Regarding "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Tokugawa Shogunate" I suggest "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Edo period"; any comments?

The history at Basho Matsuo says

04:59, 2003 Jan 25 . . Nanshu (moved to "Matsuo_Basho")

suggesting that the following was already redundant when the following msg was placed. --Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

[edit] Title of article

Why has this been moved to here [bolded after the fact by Jerzy] from Matsuo Basho? I'm pretty sure that "Matsuo Basho" is the more common order of his names when he's referred to in English, and a basic principle of naming articles here is to put things under the most common English-language name. I'll move it back unless there's a reason not to. --Camembert

Per history of Talk:Matsuo Basho this msg was placed

13:01, 2003 Jan 25 . . Camembert (about page move from switching order of names)

--Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

(Since moved back after I forgot all about it - thanks) --Camembert

Per history of Talk:Matsuo Basho this msg was added

M 12:12, 2003 Jun 28 . . Camembert (correct my old braino)

--Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

The history is apparently lost that said that someone, probably User:TakuyaMurata, moved a page (Matsuo_Basho would not have been explicitly mentioned there) to "Basho_Matsuo", presumably bcz the reversal of that move was done (reasonably IMO) as a simple move rather than an exchange-2-pages move: the new link Matsuo Basho created by the move of Matsuo Basho to Basho Matsuo would have had that entry, but must have been deleted to make room for the move back.

(The name TakuyaMurata is provided, and the account reinforced, by the history of Basho (always a link).)

So the un-named "here" i bolded above is now there, an example of the desirablility of clarifying "here" and "the article", especially when discussing moves. --Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

You're quite right of course - I normally clarify these things when I write on talk pages about them. I guess I forgot on this occasion. --Camembert

[edit] Reference to Mastuo Munefusa

I was interested in this murky history bcz of the reference to Mastuo Munefusa with the surname spelled differing from "Matsuo" by a two-letter transposition. I intended to leave a note here asking for help in being sure it's a typo, but i now think that even if it were intended, the author's failure to note Basho's trick in choosing a slightly different surname, and the effort i've made re the history, would entitle me to risk that error immediately. [smile] --Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

Yes, it's just a typo. --Camembert

Tnx! --Jerzy 20:33, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

---

In another matter, i'm leaving it thus:

He took the name Basho ... in the 1680s when he ... became a recluse. ... He gained a reputation as a great poet and critic after the move to Edo.

Note this is agnostic abt the time relation between becoming a recluse and gaining the rep. At least the second is usually an extended process, so anything more precise might be unjustified, but i'm ignorant. Perhaps someone knows at least whether reclusion (a word?) fell during his rise. --Jerzy 20:33, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

---

[edit] Basho as haiku poet

User:Fg2 has posed an interesting question—do we need to talk about the change from haikai to haiku in the Matsuo Basho article? I think that since for both Japanese and non-Japanese Basho is known almost exclusively as a haiku poet, that something must be said in the article, and probably in the intro, about the fact that in his lifetime he was known as a haikai no renga poet, but today he is known as a haiku poet. BlankVerse ∅ 01:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

How would you feel about this: "Matsuo Bashō (松尾芭蕉 Matsuo Bashō, 1644 – November 28, 1694) was the haigo (haiku pen name) of a Japanese poet of the Edo period. He is widely credited with raising the form that would later be known as haiku to its highest level, although in his lifetime, Basho was renowned as a poet of haikai no renga (semi-comic linked verse usually created with a group of poets)." Fg2 01:17, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

That sounds okay, but the Works section should be rewritten to give more detail on him as a renga poet and diary author, with a note at the end on how he became known as a haiku poet. BlankVerse ∅ 07:24, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I only wish I had the knowledge to do that! Fg2 07:34, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

I have to knowledge (or at least the books with the right information), but I just need more time. First I want to finish work on the kigo article where I have one more section planned. After I add it, I want to take the Kigo article through Wikipedia:Peer review with the idea that I will nominate the article for Featured article status. Then I will probably move on to the rather meager Kobayashi Issa article before I tackle what is need for this article.

After some thought, I think your ending should be changed to: "Basho was renowned as a poet of haikai no renga (a collaborative linked-verse form)." BlankVerse ∅ 09:14, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

The suggestion makes a lot of sense, but as you said, it should be coupled with the information about haiku somewhere in the article. Meanwhile, I really like the kigo article! If you're interested in including a photo of autumn, I've got one here. Fg2 09:42, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Italics

I've fiddled with the use of italics. I haven't been thorough, and I'm not fully happy with what I've done, but here's the reasoning.

Putting Japanese aside, there is indeed an English custom by which the title of any poem (in English) of any length is given in italics. But this is not common. If we want to be persnickety about parentheses, then The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) implies that there's one, bilingual title, and thus is wrong. The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) [note vertical parentheses!] is OK, but it's slightly harder for me to scan than is "The Narrow Road to the Deep North" (Oku no Hosomichi); I therefore recommend that italics are reserved for book titles, as well of course as unassimilated foreign words. (Of course if a published book titled The Narrow Road to the Deep North is cited, it should be cited in italics.) -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "wabi/sabi"

We read: ". . . which is dominated by the concept of wabi-sabi: the identification of man with nature." While I'm no expert in this kind of thing, I'm surprised by the idea that there is a single concept of wabi-sabi (I'd thought that they were two words, each expressing a concept or cluster of concepts) and that this amalgam means "the identification of man with nature". Did something get garbled here? -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

Peer review suggested that the level of prose needed major improvement more than anything else, so I just rewrote the entire article. Apparently I used the same sources as the previous version, because not much changed by way of facts. Ashibaka tock 23:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names

The kanji for Bashō are provided, as they should be; but those for his other names are not, which seems a pity. -- Hoary 08:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

What's the distinction between "Bibliography" and "References"?

Three of the items in the short bibliography are translations of Oku no hosomiti. Are these the best three translations? Or are they the translations that have the best additional editorial comments about Bashō's work in general or his life? Also, I'm a bit surprised not to see within the "Bibliography" a reference to some separate, scholarly study (perhaps in an academic journal) of Bashō's work as a whole, of some particular aspect of Bashō's work, or of Bashō's biography. There must be scads of the stuff in Japanese, but I'd expect also a certain amount in English. (Maybe what's written in "References" is relevant here.)

NB I'm definitely not angling for "bibliography-stuffing": the mindless addition of impressive-sounding references. No: in the past I've seen lucid, approachable, informative articles (as opposed to "deconstructionist" and similar drivel created merely to impress other academics) about writers in such journals as Monumenta Nipponica, and I guessed that there would be good stuff about Bashō too.

We read that Bashō was at one time (ambiguously) interested in homosexuality; presumably this is somehow relevant to Louis Crompton's Homosexuality and Civilization. But I'd be surprised if such a grandly titled book by somebody with a non-Japanese name would be a good source on Bashō. (I don't know it; apologies to Crompton if I mischaracterize it.) Does Crompton cite any research on Bashō? If so, it might be better to cite that directly.

In general, then, I'd be inclined to add a short annotation to each entry in the bibliography and references -- and also of course to indicate which slightly (or more than slightly) controversial claim within the article came from which source. -- Hoary 08:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA failed

This article needs a copyedit very badly. Too many words and expressions are used to describe even the little things. There are too many assumptions in the article. Which means that if sources agree then say so and source the information given. Lincher 16:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you give some specific examples? Ashibaka tock 17:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I second Ashibaka's question. Actually I don't even fully understand Lincher's objection: even if the criticisms in the first three sentences are justified (and without examples I don't know), then how does this mean "that if sources agree then say so", etc.? -- Hoary 04:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Examples of it:

• He was even conflicted over whether to become a full-time poet; by his own account, "the alternatives battled in my mind and made my life restless.", could this be rephrased.
• In Edo, Bashō's poetry was quickly recognized for its simple and natural style., what is natural styled-poetry.

And these are assumptions that need to be addressed by both views or some words need to be changed to confer a less point-of-vue orientation unless they are inline cited.

• Bashō was born Matsuo Kinsaku in roughly 1644, somewhere near Ueno in Iga Province.
• His father may have been a low-ranking samurai, which would have promised Bashō a career in the military but not much chance of a notable life.
• No records of this time remain, but it is believed that Bashō gave up the possibility of samurai status and left his home.
• Biographers have proposed various reasons and destinations, including the fanciful possibility of an affair between Bashō and a Shinto miko named Jutei.
• In any case, his poems continued to be published in anthologies in 1667, 1669, and 1671, and he published his own compilation of various authors, Seashell Game (貝おほひ Kai Ōi?), in 1672.
• In roughly the spring of that year he moved to Edo to further his study of poetry.

And there are many other instances throughout the text that I didn't point out. Lincher 11:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think I understand a few of these. For example, "His father may have been a low-ranking samurai" might prompt an explanation of the evidence, and the tenuousness of the evidence, for this claim. In others, I'm lost. For example, are you saying that for example "In roughly the spring of that year" is more POVish or has a greater need for sourcing than does "In the spring of that year"? -- Hoary 13:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It is better to use less words so In the spring of that year^ref ... I want to know where is somewhere near? I want to have more information or insight into the opinionated words used like but it is believed or the fanciful possibility (that is clear POV).

I have also noticed that you say He returned to Edo in the summer of 1685, taking time to write more hokku and comment on his own life: and later When Bashō returned to Edo he happily resumed his job as a teacher of poetry at his Bashō Hut which mentions two times that he returned to Edo could we have a date for the second date or if it is the same Edo trip could one instance be removed.

The text Apparently this poem became instantly famous is really POV by the fact that we do not know who stated that the poem became famous. What does instantly famous mean back 400 years ago, the same as famous in our days ... like after the release or the year after. .... contributed by Lincher

You make some good points, but some seem bizarre to me. Of course the return to Edo mentioned above is a single return to Edo: to say it once before a relevant quotation and to repeat it immediately thereafter (as a minor nudge to the reader) seems excellent prose style to me. (This is not self-congratulation: the prose isn't mine.) In addition, this was hardly an "Edo trip": he lived in Edo (if rather restlessly). Secondly, I see nothing "opinionated" about "it is believed". It's a straightforwardly factual statement that this is what is commonly believed. (One might of course have other objections concerning lack of clarity: believed by every Bashō scholar? By most? By a bare majority? Believed on what grounds? Etc.) -- Hoary 16:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• 'could this be rephrased.' -- I don't know what confuses you about it.
• "the fact that we do not know who stated that the poem became famous" -- I give the evidence in the clause immediately following it; there weren't newspapers around to archive but we do have a record of that contest. It has been a famous poem ever since.
• "Bashō was born Matsuo Kinsaku in roughly 1644" -- I don't understand how this is POV. They didn't have birth certificates at that time in Japan; historians can only estimate.
• "His father may have been a low-ranking samurai" -- This isn't POV either, it is inferred by Japanese historians because he hung out with nobles and was given a samurai name. I could include this in the article, but this is an encyclopedia, not a term paper. I don't think there is any use of watering it down with something like "Historians believe," it's not like anyone besides historians cares to disagree.
• "including the fanciful possibility of an affair between Bashō and a Shinto miko named Jutei." -- We know Jutei was alive and living in Iga-ken at the time, and much later she is recorded as visiting Basho in Edo. So, daydreaming Japanese historians think this might have happened. Summary: it's a fanciful possibility.
• "No records of this time remain, but it is believed that Bashō gave up the possibility of samurai status and left his home." -- because the next thing you know he was living in Edo, publishing books quite unbecoming of a samurai. There are concievably other possibilities too. Maybe he was abducted by aliens.
• "In any case" -- this is called a conjunction. Conjunctions connect independent statements. If you are unsure how conjunctions work Wikipedia has an article explaining them. Generally, conjunctions are unbiased and make articles better and easier to read. (notable exception: "George Bush is president, but the world keeps turning.")
• "In roughly the spring of that year" -- I don't know how to explain this to you without being even more condescending so I will stop here.

Ashibaka tock 03:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You have made your point loud and clear. Thanks for demystifying these few passages for me as I now am able to clearly interpret the text (sorry for my arrogance at times or my ignorance at others). As these clarifications asked are now seen in a new light, bring back the article to GA, as the comments given by me are now rendered senseless giving the article the criteria it needed for the GA. Lincher 03:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Woah, edit conflicted, I was about Bowlderize some of my bile and sarcasm :) Thank you for taking it well. Ashibaka tock 03:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

GA promoted. Lincher 16:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Spanish translation, and to Japanese

There have been various attempts to link to a site offering Oku no hosomichi in Spanish and Japanese. These have been reverted as "spam", which seems an undeservedly harsh term. I don't see why this article needs a link to a Spanish translation, but right now it doesn't have a link to a Japanese version. On the other (third?) hand, I'd be inclined to think that there's a scholarly Japanese site with a Japanese version -- but characteristically, I'm too lazy to investigate this thoroughly. Comments from one or two people who (unlike me) are well informed about Oku no hosomichi would be welcome. -- Hoary 10:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

My problem with the link is its spam nature (the advertising on the site) and that it's foreign language. -- JHunterJ 11:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The matter of foreign language aside for the moment, what advertising? I don't see any advertising whatever, and I hadn't realized that my browser's junk-cutting settings were that good.

What I wonder about are:

1. As there is already an article on Oku no hosomichi, why does this article too need a link to any site specifically about the work?
2. Where does the Spanish version come from, and can we be assured that there's no copyright violation?
3. Where does the Japanese version come from, and can we be assured that there's no copyright violation?

(For the last of these, cf Shakespeare. Yes of course his works are (in principle) in the public domain, but most people use editions that are most certainly not in the public domain. You can't simply scan and upload the New Arden edition of this or that.) -- Hoary 14:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

You may need to disable your popup blocker(s) and return to the site to see the (popup) ad -- which probably comes from geocities broadly and not this page in particular. (I agree with the rest of your points.) -- JHunterJ 14:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, citations are missing

The summary for this recent edit, part of which I am about to revert, is footnotes are in Harvard format.

This is bizarre, in that there are no footnotes.

Let's take "footnotes" to be a sleepy mistake for "references" or "citations". It's still bizarre, as a grand total of one assertion is referenced: "He had a great many visitors, and a male disciple by the name of Tsuboi Tokoku (坪井 杜国) who may have become his lover, although there does not seem to have been any contemporary interest in their relationship. (Crompton 2003)"

Even this looks pretty feeble, as "Crompton 2003" is an entire book that's purportedly about "homosexuality and civilization" in general and thus is unlikely to devote many words to Bashō. Why no page number(s)? Moreover, my suspicions about the value of Crompton's work, expressed above months ago, seem simply to have been ignored. (And finally, I'm puzzled by what seems to be a bit of an obsession in WP articles about unconfirmed rumors of bisexuality, which often [as here] aren't shown to have any significance even if true.)

Let's return to the article. It's bristling with assertions. Where do they come from, or where may one check to see that they also appear in a reliable source? My guess is that they come from Ueda's books Matsuo Bashō and Bashō and His Interpreters, but this is not made clear. Neither is the relationship between "References" and "Bibliography".

The {{citations missing}} flag, which I am about to add, should removed when useful citations are added, and not before. -- Hoary 02:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

That single sentence was added into the article by someone else than me; you can remove it if Compton is a questionable source. Everything else was written entirely by me and comes from those books. If you think my MLA-style references aren't good enough, you're going to be waiting a long time for me to take the books out of the library again and footnote each little page, because I sure as fuck am not going to do that for you. So basically, you're going to add a pastel box that doesn't improve the article at all. Ashibaka tock 14:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I reluctantly consult a copy of the 4th edition (a recent one, though not the latest) of the boring MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers. In §4.2 "MLA style" (pp 104-5), it tells us that MLA style is to use inline citations such as "(Marcuse 197)", adding a bibliography in which the reader may see that "Marcuse" is Sibyl Marcuse's book A Survey of Musical Instruments and necessary publication info. But look, I've no more wish to dwell on what this or that particular MoS says than you do, and I'll stick that book back on its shelf where it may deservedly gather more dust. I've never thought nor intentionally suggested that the article should specify the precise location of the authority for each of its assertions. Saying that the entire content of the article (now that I've deleted the speculative gay trivia) comes from one or other of those two books would be a big start. In fact I'll do it right now. Then the pastel box can be deleted, though I suppose the article should eventually give the precise location of each quotation. -- Hoary 02:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. It just annoyed me that the only contributions made to my article have been vandalism and an uninformative pastel box. Ideally, I would have more than 2 sources and footnotes would be both helpful and necessary, but Mr. Ueda was the only author I could find in the Boston Public Library. Ashibaka tock 23:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest that there should be more than two named sources. That was very definitely not my point, which was that as it stood, the article-plus-three-references combo could have been taken to mean: "The speculative gay trivia comes from Compton, some editor who added something (he/she didn't note what, and now nobody knows) used one book by Ueda, another editor who added something else (he/she didn't note what, and now nobody knows) used another book by Ueda, and the rest is the predictable mishmash of stuff recycled from dodgy websites, hazily remembered from long-ago readings of subsequently mislaid paperbacks, etc. (And if you don't like that, remember that this is the 'encyclopedia' anyone is free to edit!)" Aarghhh. Despite having perpetrated dozens of footnotes in my time, I don't much like them and certainly don't like obsessiveness in referencing. But there has to be some "middle way" or whatever. ¶ :Don't get me started on userboxes..... Hoary 00:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)