Talk:Matija Zmajević

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[edit] Serb?

Erm, HRE/Pax, Zmajević family was from Perast, they were Catholic, Andrija was the Archbishop of Bar etc. Here's a nice source:[1]

Po završetku školovanja u Kongregaciji za propagandu vere u Rimu[3], gde je stekao zvanje doktora teologije i filozofije, Andrija Zmajević se vratio u Perast. Od 1656. do 1671. bio je opat sv. Đorđa i peraški župnik, a 1664. dobio je funkciju vikara crkve u Budvi i zvanje komesara Svete stolice. Papa Klement X imenovao ga je 1671. za nadbiskupa barskog i "primasa Kraljevstva Srbije".

If all of that doesn't qualify him as outright Croat, no sources I found can qualify him as Serb either (personally, I consider most of "Serb catholic" theories bullshit crank). I suggest you remove the ethnic designation altogether from the articles. Duja 15:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is copied from the Croatian website: [2]. So either way, it should really be deleted as plagiarism. --Thewanderer 18:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah - I was just reverting what I classified as Afrika paprika's bad faith editing. I just took the fact that his uncle was a famous Serbian Barroque poet.

Classifying him outright an ethnic Croat would be just if we classify Macedonians & Montenegrins because of their religion, Serbs. AFAIC, the Croatian claim on southern Dalmatia (particularely the Bay of Kotor) is much like the Serbian Radical Party's claim on Macedonia. Many Croatian historians errorously consider the Bay of Kotor as strictly ethnicly Croat up to the 20th century; when AFAIC, Catholics were in a minority. Additionally, the whole thing is based on the sole factor of religion - that they were Roman Catholic. There is a very small minority (or no) Catholic Bokelji that attained a strong Croatian national identity, compared to those who had no national affilation (the majority) or even the very few that "adopted Serbdom", to use the phrase.

Not all is in religion - Stjepan Mitrov Ljubiša was an Orthodox Christian - but do you notice his name? Medo Pucić, the most prominent man of the 19th century Dubrovnik was a Serbian nationalist. Antun Fabris was the spiritual, moral, ethic & national leader of all Serbs in the coastlans (he was in charge of the Dubrovnik Press, Library; was the manager of several papers etc.) Whereas the general claim of "Catholic Serbs" indeed could be lengthened to the nationalist irridentist ideology of most (or the greater part of) Croats being "originally Serb", but the two cannot & should not be mixed. --PaxEquilibrium 19:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I think about adding "Croatian", but I have no idea how to really put it. I don't want to make it seem like we was a Croatian, nor of ethnic Croat origins... --PaxEquilibrium 10:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Lemme make a try... Duja 10:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

waiting... --PaxEquilibrium 19:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't claim to know much about the subject. However, some sort of mention of Croatian-ness, or of disputed ethnicity/nationality seems justified. He would certainly qualify as at least equally Croatian as Montenegrin. Boka was not a part of Montenegro until relatively recently, and definately not at the time during which he was alive.--Thewanderer 00:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried to avoid mentioning Montenegro in the article as well (the Croatian source I used, see the reference, also tries to avoid either "Croatian" or "Montenegrin"). Frankly, I don't know how to put it in a nice way though—"he was back-proclaimed a Croat because of his Catholicism?" so I skipped it at all, as the reference to Bokelj seems to suffice. Duja 07:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, calling Montenegrin would indeed be errorously (maybe only a Category or his name's mention on the List); however, I have idea - what about simply mentioning that he's a Croat national hero (if he is such), (just like Hungarian Janjos Hunjadi is a Serbian national hero)? --PaxEquilibrium 12:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zmajevic family

I found out that they were "victims" of the Catholic conversions. Apparently, Andrija Zmajević was a famous Serbian writer that identified himself as such. The family's descendant - Vincent Zmajevic (1712-1745) was a stalwart anti-Orthodox and kept Orthodox activity in chains and despite that, kept his Serbian identity. Although, there is nothing that really puts Matija Zmajevic as a "Serb" himself, but possibly only of Serb origins. As far as I found out, their origin (before the catholic conversions) lies in the Njegusi in Old Montenegro. --PaxEquilibrium 17:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)