Talk:Matcha

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Contents 1 Other Uses 2 Spelling discussion unnecessary 3 Self-contradiction 4 How can one drink this type of tea??? 5 History 6 Shouldn't this be "Matcha"? 6.1 Requested move 6.2 This article should be called Maccha

[edit] Other Uses

Maccha is often found in smoothies, and in some health-concious cereals. Maccha can also be baked into cookies or added to icecream as a unique flavour and added nutrition.

[edit] Spelling discussion unnecessary

The spelling discussion takes too much space and should be edited down. All that's needed is to refer to both forms and mention which type of romanization they stem from. The discussion on the relative merits should be done in the articles about romanization of Japanese.

It is pertinent to the article though, because there is confusion as to the "correct" spelling by people who don't hold an interest in the arguments about Japanese romanisation otherwise. —Cohen the Bavarian 17:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I dissent. This little blurb is silliness. Somebody who cares about the romanization of Japanese can romanize まっちゃ however he wants to. Should we have a bloody paragraph on romanization in every single Japanese or noncognate language article? Hell, I like the romanization scheme that would call that first city we blew up back in the day "Hirosima." Should I go write a spelling paragraph? ----Mrgalt 01:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the spelling discussion is over-long and not well placed, but this last comment by MrGalt should be stricken. I am not sure what MrGalt means in this comment, but at least one obvious interpretation is highly inflammatory, and suggests that 'we' does not include Japanese people. It suggests many other things besides, but I am sure I do not need to spell these out.
The article most definitely needs expansion, including more on history, chemical make-up (many claims concerning anti-oxidants, chlorophyl, etc. are made concerning Maccha), etc.24.207.67.118 23:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I just did what I think was a pretty good job of shortening the spelling section to a single paragraph while still retaining all of the information relevant to the article, just to have my edits reverted by this account. As the spelling section is now, it contains more information than is necessary and it is written in a way which furthers a point of view, rather than just presenting the relevant facts. It exaggerates the use of the "maccha" spelling in Japan and makes the assertion that Hepburn romanization is only used to "appease" English speakers. Spacecat2 04:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm deleting the spelling section. After checking this article's history, it seems that the person who added the section in the first place basically copied and pasted it from this page, constituting copyright violation. If anyone still thinks a spelling section is needed, please make sure it doesn't violate copyright and that it properly cites sources. Spacecat2 08:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

New Shinjitsu argues that "This article should be spelled maccha ..." His argument appeared three times on this page. I'm taking the liberty to replace the redundancy with this note. Jimp 16:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Self-contradiction

I have added this template because the section on Spelling contradicts itself several times. --Purplezart 04:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How can one drink this type of tea???

Since the leaves are powdered, when you add water wouldn't the powder mix and be immpossible to take out, forcing someone to have to drink it? The article doesn't explain this and I would like to know, I also think it should be added to the article. -- AS Artimour 17:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You drink it with the powder. In a way, it's not entirely unlike powdered instant hot cocoa or instant coffee. LordAmeth 10:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The fact that one consumes the actual green tea leaf in powdered form accounts for many of the huge health benefits of maccha, making it much stronger than regularly steeped green tea.

[edit] History

It is incorrect to say that "powdered tea seems to have been invented in China during the Song Dynasty." Powdered tea is the original way of tea drinking. Tea Classic by Lu Yu, written during the Tang dynasty, doesn't know of any other. It is only in the Song period that the loose-leaf method appears. So, it seems that the article has got it backwards.

The fact that the powdered form has acquired a ritualistic importance in Japan seems to confirm that tea was brought to Japan during the Tang dynasty, when indeed great many things were brought to Japan from China. The cultural links were abruptly cut toward the decline of Tang, and have never achieved the same magnitude as during Tang. Since the loose-leaf method was unknown to Tang, it hasn't achieved the same status in Japan as the powdered form.

- Leokor 06:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shouldn't this be "Matcha"?

Taking interest in the spelling section of this article, I've made it a point to notice what spelling is used on matcha products I see in Japan. So far, I've seen three "matcha"s and only one "maccha". Can anyone give a good reason why this article shouldn't be called "Matcha"? Spacecat2 06:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

New Shinjitsu argues that "This article should be spelled maccha ..." His argument appeared three times on this page. I'm taking the liberty to replace the redundancy with this note. Jimp 16:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] This article should be called Maccha

This article should be spelled maccha for the following reasons:

1. Japanese people spell 抹茶 "maccha". This is evident by popular use. It is well laid out in the "Spelling" section.

2. "Matcha" spelling is based on the outdated "Hepburn" system. Wikipedia criticized this system in its article on the subject as distorting Japanese phonology.

3. The alphabet, as the French, Germans, Spanish, Italians, etc, would surely agree, is not for English speakers. It is to represent that countries' language. Some Japanese companies spell maccha with a tea, but they are few and marketing their product to an English speaking market.

4. The Japanese keyboard is laid out with the alphabet, rather than having a gigantic keyboard with all the different Japanese characters on it. To spell out 抹茶, one has to type m,a,c,c,h,a. m,a,t,c,h,a would like like this: まt茶 and be meaningless.

Newshinjitsu 21:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC) New Shinjitsu

Wikipedia's standard for romanization is Hepburn. If you want to change that, please argue on Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). However, please note that this is the English Wikipedia and it's meant for English speakers. If you want to argue about how French, Germans, Spanish, Italians etc should spell it, please go argue on the French, German, Spanish and Italian Wikipedias. Jpatokal 12:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

1. I just googled both spellings with the setting "Search Japanese pages". The results:

• about 57,400 Japanese pages for matcha.
• about 31,200 Japanese pages for maccha.

Looks like they also spell it matcha.

2. Since when was Hepburn outdated? I suggest you go to that article you mention and read the section where it describes how widely the system is used. Hepburn is by no means outdated, it is in fact the most widely used system of romanisation in the country.

3. No, the alphabet is not for English only. So, do tell us, what's so brilliant about maccha? If you really want to reflect the Japanese phonology & morphology, you'll be spellng it mattya (or even mattja). Maccha, it seems to me, is nothing but some bastardisation. Whether it's a bastardisation of Hepburn or of Kunrei I can't be sure ... maybe it's the bastard child of them both. No matter how many companies choose to go along with this bastardisation, we have a different standard here. The standard we use at Wikipedia, for better or worse, is Hepburn. You might complain that this is designed for English speakers but guess what ... so is this encyclopædia.

4. It is true that you can't get "抹茶" by typing matcha on a Japanese keyboard. It is true that you can do so by typing maccha. You can also type the mattya I mentioned and get "抹茶". Other alternatives include macchilya, macchixya, mattilya, mattixya, maxtutya, maxtucha, maltutya, maltsutya, maltucha, maltsucha, maxtutixya, maxtuchixya, maltutixya, maltsutixya, maltuchixya, maltsuchixya, maxtutilya, maxtuchilya, maltutilya, maltsutilya, maltuchilya and maltsuchilya. Would you argue that any of these are better than matcha? By the way, you can also type kana in directly.　Jimp 17:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed something funny. The Japanese word in New Shinjitsu's user name itself is spelled in Hepburn, not Kunrei-shiki. In Kunrei-shiki, it would be "sinzitu". Spacecat2 08:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

IT IS TRUE, MACCHA IS MORE APPROPRIATE!!!

Spelling it with the "double c" is the traditional way, and is what you will mostly find in Japanese supermarkets. The spelling with the "tc" is more common with North American companies. The debate apparently forms around the "sokuon", what linguists call a guttural stop, found in the middle of the word. The ideographs that make up maccha are matsu (ground) and cha (tea). When they are written together, the Japanese language splices them with a slight pause, known as a "sokuon". The "double c" spelling is more appropriate and it reflects the transliteration method officially recognized by the Japanese government. However, it doesn not come as naturally to English speakers. LETS put our difficulties with pronounciation aside and USE THE MORE APPROPRAITE AND TRADITIONALLY JAPANESE TERM, MACCHA, PLEASE!!!! (http://www.answers.com/topic/maccha ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.105.121.155 (talk • contribs).

Just to let you know, Answers.com cannot be regarded as a reliable source to back up anything on Wikipedia. This is because Answers.com simply copies its information from Wikipedia. As far as I'm aware the only spelling officially recognised by the Japanese government would be mattya. If you have reliable evidence to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

There are three commonly used standard systems of romanisation of Japanese: Hepburn, Kunrei and Nihonshiki. In Hepburn it's matcha in the other two it's mattya. The spelling maccha conforms to none of these standards. Companies are not bound to standard spellings, they can spell as they wish. They don't, however, set what is appropriate or traditional.

As Jpatokal mentions, Wikipedia uses Hepburn. If you want to have this changed, there's a place for that. If you want it changed to some other standard system, this would make some sense but I wouldn't like your chances. If you want it changed to some nonstandard system, good luck. Jimp 00:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I live in Japan, and I can tell you that "Matcha" is far more common to see at Japanese supermarkets, or at least the supermarkets I go to. And by the way, the text you quoted is from an older version of the Wikipedia article. And whoever added the text to the article in the first place copied it verbatim from an opinion piece on a tea company's website. (see "Spelling discussion unnecessary" above.)

If you want a platform for your views that badly, go start your own Macchapedia, but please leave Wikipedia alone. Spacecat2 00:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I have done more research into this matter and come up with some pretty interesting information. Unfortunately for proponents of matcha, maccha is more commonly used as it is a uniform representation of the small tsu. Hepburn used to alter this to help English speakers without making room for other small tsu applications. Therefore, as of the early 90's, Hepburn was revised once again. It was part of a Japanese government effort to standardise the romaji system and is thus taught widely in Japan and to many JSL students worldwide. All other instances of the small tsu are represented with a doubling of the constanant succeeding the vowel. The official spelling would be mattya in Kunreishiki. However, Hepburn representation such as "fu" instead of Kunrei's "hu", and shi instead of Kunrei's "si", are allowed in this system. Cha, instead of tya is also okay. Both ways are accepted. The t before the c in nicknames such as あっちゃん, which some would have spelled atchan, is uniformly spelled acchan. Matcha is a sort of remnant of Japan until the 80's. So at a JSL level, an academic level, a government level, and a popular Japanese level, maccha is the way it should be spelled (or mattya as another option from the government's perspective). It is unfortunate that this is such a contentious issue. Wikipedia, I would hope, is an environment for informing people of various perspectives. Calling the Japanese Government at 81 ３（５２５３）４１１１ to confirm this fact is always recommended. The Japanese Encyclopedia of Language is also a good source. I'm sure that Wikipedia will eventually recognize this at some point. It isn't the first time that a country has changed the way it widely represents its language in the alphabet.

Newshinjitsu 08:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC) Newshinjitsu