Talk:Mastiff

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The Old English Mastiff isn't listed on List of dog breeds. Is there another name for it under which it appears in that list? If not, it needs to be added to that list. Elf | Talk 17:26, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's another name for the breed the kennel clubs call a "Mastiff" [1]. The problem is, of course, that "mastiff" or "mastiff-type" is used for several breeds as listed in this article. But the Mastiff itself is a recognised breed, and so "English Mastiff" or "Old English Mastiff" are sometimes used to make the distinction clearer.

So, how should we deal with this? As all the kennel clubs call the breed "Mastiff" we would usually have the article about that specific breed here. But having this listing of all mastiff-type dogs also make sense. Perhaps the article should be at Old English Mastiff leaving this general article here. Or we could move this to Mastiff-type dogs and put the specific breed article here. -- sannse (talk) 08:37, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm, interesting. "Mastiff-type" doesn't seem appropriate because it would be inconsistent with, e.g., Setter, Spaniel, Terrier, and so on, which are not labeled "-type". But of course they aren't overloaded onto breed names. I've checked a couple of my (American) books quickly and plain English Mastiff is the secondary name listed in both. So I'm thinking that we might use that for the breed entry, with a strong statement in the Mastiff article at the top that this refers both to a type and to a breed. I don't know how many people really would do a search *first* on "Old English Mastiff" vs. plain Mastiff or English Mastiff. (Erg, or now I'm waffling--since we have to make a strong point at the beginning anyway, we could use this for the breed and xref to Mastiff type-- I don't know that we need to say Mastiff-type DOG--is there anything else that's of mastiff type? ;-) ) Elf | Talk 15:44, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, I know of a couple of mastiff-type people ;) My (English) books are split, with two using "Old English Mastiff" with "Mastiff" as the secondary name, one using the opposite and one using "Mastiff" as the primary and "English Mastiff" as the secondary (the last is the most modern of my books). So my feeling is that either solution would work, and I feel that the most elegant is your first sugestion - to put the breed article at English Mastiff and leave this as it is - but make it clear on this page that "Mastiff" is also used as the breed name for a particular type of mastiff. -- sannse (talk) 16:58, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made these changes -- sannse (talk) 08:05, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pugs, staffies, pitbulls, and boston terriers?

Are any of those breeds really mastiffs? The article states that "Mastiffs are a group of large, solidly built breeds of dogs", true, these dogs are all solidly built, but none of them are "large" (compared to the Bullmastiff for example), or normaly considered mastiffs (look at the FCI "Molossoid" section of group two). Pharaoh Hound 12:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there are several dogs that shouldn't be on this list:

• American Staffordshire Terrier -- a terrier, not a mastiff
• American Pit Bull Terrier -- ditto
• Boston Terrier -- ditto
• Bull Terrier (Miniature) -- ditto
• Pug -- ???
• Rhodesian Ridgeback -- this is a hound
• Staffordshire Bull Terrier -- terrier

I question several of the other additions as well. Exploding Boy 00:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the Mastiff Club of America,

A Mastiff is a giant breed of dog, descended from the ancient Alaunt and Molosser. The general term 'mastiff' is used to refer to many different breeds around the world, probably all descended from the same root stock. The proper noun 'Mastiff', however, is used to refer to a specific breed of mastiff, the breed that originated in England over 2,000 years ago. Mastiffs (also frequently referred to as English Mastiffs, or incorrectly, as Old English Mastiffs (OEM's)) are generally very large dogs; fawn, apricot or brindle in color; all with a black mask and ears; possessing a medium to short coat with very little white.

Breeds such as the Bullmastiff, Dogue de Bordeaux, Fila Brasileiro, Mastin Del Pirineo, Mastin Espanol, Neapolitan Mastiff, Tibetan Mastiff, and many others fall into the larger category "Molosser", but they are not 'Mastiffs'. Each is a separate and distinct breed.

Exploding Boy 01:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

They may be distinct breeds, but this category is for molossoids, not just mastiffs (though perhaps the name is somewhat inaccrurate) , so Bullmastiffs, Neos, Dogue de Bordeax etc should stay. But I'm removing all the terriers and hounds that you suggested, as well as the French Bulldog, there's no way that it's a mastiff. --Pharaoh Hound 11:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

But this isn't a category, it's an article. All the breeds not named XX Mastiff should be removed from this article page and placed on the Molosser page (if it exists) or in the Molosser category (if it exists). Exploding Boy 17:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There IS a molosser page, but that page just says that "molloser" is another name for mastiff. And there is no category for mastiffs or molossers. I think that this page is supposed to be about molossers, but ended up being called mastiff (look at the disussion above, it is stated that this page is about "mastiff type" dogs, AKA molossers). Maybe this is because of the fact that the word "molosser" isn't in much use in North America (in fact, the only KC that I've ever seen use the word is the FCI). --Pharaoh Hound 19:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Then maybe this page should be moved to Molosser and cleaned up, and Mastiff redirected to English Mastiff? Exploding Boy 21:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good to me, though it may be somewhat controversal. Do you know if there's some way to tag proposed moves like there is for proposed merges (if that is possible, it might be the best way to do it) --Pharaoh Hound 21:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, not that I know of. I'm not sure why it should be controversial: we're not going to actually remove any content, just organize it better. Exploding Boy 21:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Very true, and I guess that there's little sense in keeping this confusing name in place. --Pharaoh Hound 21:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, well I'll go ahead and do it. Exploding Boy 21:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)