User talk:Markussep/ArchiveSouthTyrol

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Trentino-South Tyrol

hello there, there is a discussion about renaming the current Trentino-South Tyrol into Trentino-Alto Adige. maybe you care to take a look. Since you also wrote the article Talk:Eisack-Isarco maybe take a look there too. with kind regards Gryffindor 11:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Article rename

hello Markussep,

you once voiced your opinion on the article "Trentino-South Tyrol" if I am not mistaken. There is a discussion going on on the article "Bozen-Bolzano", which is to be renamed as "Bolzano-Bozen". Maybe you care to voice your opinion on this matter on the article's talk page? Thank you for your time.

sincerely Gryffindor 18:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

moving of article Brixen-Bressanone

hello Markussep,

while I find it admirable that you are trying to find a solution in Talk:Communes of South Tyrol, could you please explain why you move the article to Brixen, Italy without any prior discussion on the talk page of the article or a request for moving? I think we should try to find a consensus first before starting to moving rashly in this very delicate issue, don't you agree? Gryffindor 20:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but I do not see that any of the debate has been closed, and not sufficient time has been given for all parties to voice their arguments IMO. I also see that you have been moving all the other places without waiting for the end of the discussion. And again, while I find it admirable that you try to seek a solution, certain procedures and a grace period should be given. I am having trouble following the discussion on the talk page. For example where would Bozen-Bolzano and Meran-Merano end up? I think the dual naming solution was just fine, because that would give both sides the opportunity to voice their versions, since no clear "English" version exists. Gryffindor 20:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be no clear policy on this issue and I don't think that waiting a little bit more, normally it's at least, a month hurts the issue. While I can see that my idea of having double-names does not have a majority at the moment, you should allow for reasonable time in order for these kinds of discussions to pass. Again, what is the hurry? If a majority will form, it will form itself sooner or later. If you are going to go with a majority of what the population speaks, as you are proposing, then it will have to be "Meran" not "Merano", while in the meantime it would have to be (grudgingly) "Bolzano". So please wait a little bit longer for the outcome of the discussion, 2 weeks is certainly not enough by any standard. Gryffindor 21:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, ample time should be given in a discussion that concerns more than just two people. In this case I don't see the need to rush into anything and at least give more than a month time for the discussion to end, and a clear policy to be formulated. About the specific rules, of course I and another user have a problem with double-names being removed, because at least they represent all ethnicities. If you are going to insist on using the name for the majority-spoken language, then this has to be consistent. Google results are not the most representable, because most of the sites found will be either in Italian or German. I can only agree on this new policy (very grudgingly) if Meran-Merano will be at "Meran", and I will just have to accept that Bozen-Bolzano will be moved to "Bolzano, Italy", according to a new policy. Gryffindor 16:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
It is simple, all towns in the Province of Bolzano-Bozen use the Italian-German. Any other way, and as someone from this region, I would be saddened to not see both listed. Should be Merano-Meran, Bolzano-Bozen, Brennero-Brenner, etc. Also, the province is not South Tyrol. We can both respect the history of this region and not be so biased as to change the name of the province. I mean, look at the license plates for God's sake, they have BZ for Bolzano-Bozen. Taalo 21:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Brixen, Italy should be at Brixen, while disambiguation for Brixen im Thale and Bishopric of Brixen would be done in a standard disclaimer at the beginning of the page. The South Tyrolian city is by far the most common usage of "Brixen", and therefore should simply be at "Brixen". If the desired title is already a disambiguation page (thereby preventing easy moves), that's why there are administrators and WP:RM. Olessi 17:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Markus, how did Brixen, Italy not get moved when there was clearly consensus on this? Gryffindor 17:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh excuse me, what an unusal last name :-) I guess Brixen should be moved to a disamb. page so this one can make space, let me know if you need any help with that. cheers Gryffindor 17:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano-Bozen

Hello Markussep, I'd like to have a good conversation with you on this, and other issues with this region. My feeling is that Austrians (particular those with admin rights such as Gryffindor) have manipulated things to push a highly inflamatory German POV. I'm very familiar with this region. The REGION is Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. This is in the name in the Italian consitution. The Alto Adige/Sudtirol is there in particular to respect the two ethnic groups in the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. The two PROVINCES are the Province of Trento, with it's capitol being the city of Trento; the Province of Bolzano-Bozen, with it's capitol being the city of Bolzano-Bozen. You go there, and you find TN on the Trento license plates and BZ on the Bolzano-Bozen license plates. That user Gryffindor, if you look way back, he moved Trentino-Alto Adige to Trentino-South Tyrol a long time ago without consensus. This has been an ongoing process, and to me, is very creepy. I really like this region a lot, and I would like to see a fair, non-biased writeup of the regions. A write-up free of German POV, Italian POV, and politics. take care. Taalo 19:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I miswrote my assertion on User talk:Taalo, I meant "Germanophile", not German. Note that I don't have the User talk:Taalo page on my watch list, if you want to reply my posts.--Supparluca 08:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Brixen

Hi, you closed the move discussion at Talk:Brixen, Italy. Your votes count was probably different from mine, because I do see a consensus. We have a majority for "Brixen" (Olessi, Gryffindor, Ajaxsmack and myself) versus "Bressanone-Brixen" (Taalo, Panarjedde), and no votes for "Brixen, Italy". Could you move it? Markussep 17:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I will remain that there is no clear consensus for the move to occur. I don't think any more pages should be moved until consensus is reached on what to do with all of them. It's bad enough as it is, let's not make it worse. Once everyone agrees on a format (just the Italian name, Italian-German, German-Italian, etc.) then all the pages can be moved. —Mets501 (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Before Taalo and Rarelibra came along to push double names (which they stopped, fortunately), there was a consensus for using the most common name in English, and if there isn't any, use the name in the language of the local majority. See Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. "Brixen" fits in this scheme. 67% pro is enough for me. Markussep 17:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey pal, I proposed double names in a (naive) attempt to have some sort of compromise, considering that users have gone through and basically put every city already as German-Italian. So it was someone else who obviously pushed for this before any of us. I'm fine with no double names, but then this obviously will make the case for going with Italian first (with the German and Ladin translations), as has been done now with Bolzano. Taalo 17:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad you're fine with no double names. Note that the move to Bolzano doesn't imply that everything must be Italian now. Bolzano has an Italian-speaking majority, which makes "Bolzano" a plausible name (that, and it's also more used in English). Brixen has a German-speaking majority. Markussep 18:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, and I hope you realize it was someone else who put double-names everyplace. Even some (Grif, for example) give support to Meran-Merano. Yes, that Bolzano is used now doesn't imply anything, I agree. This needs to be discussed in a non-biased professional manner. Assuming only one name is used, then I'd have to go with the Italian names. 1) It is Italy 2) there are really no English equivalents 3) going by language majority is opening a can of worms. For example, Merano is almost 50/50, that means you'd have to essentially update all the time. Also, typical Wiki convention is to go with the name used in the country's language. Then you add translations in the page and appropriate redirects. Anyway! :) My opinion also is to use some unbiased mediators to help decide. This German vs Italian voting is gettin' sorta old, isn't it? cheers. Taalo 18:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Markussep. Unless we want to open up a poll on if the result was legitimate or not.... :-/ Gryffindor 17:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, fine, I've moved it. —Mets501 (talk) 18:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Hah, well anyway. I think we're going to try and have a general discussion on how to address all of these. Also, I'm favouring this user Lar's offer to mediate, so we have someone try to objectively look at the references online and decide using Wiki conventions. I personally think things should be as on Bolzano for Italian cities with no straight-forward English equivalent. But that is just me. take care. Taalo 18:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

mediation

hey markussep, please respond to Lar's offer, if anything with a thanks! later. Taalo 18:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

bolzano

Markussep, my friend, you said "South Tyrol/Alto Adige/Südtirol is part of the official name, not a blurb". From someone whose family is from Italy (and this region), I'll say once more -- it is not. Just because it is written on the website of the province does not mean it is official. Saying Province of Bolzano - Alto Adige, is the same as saying Province of Sienna - Tuscany, Province of Pisa - Tuscany, Province of Trento - Trentino, etc. It just isn't really done -- and it certainly is not official. Anyway, we'll agree to disagree. :) Coming from a technical field though, I usually try to make sure I'm fairly sure of what I'm saying. Are you so sure of your statement? anyway, good night. ;) Taalo 06:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Your Tuscany examples are irrelevant, because it's obvious that the region Tuscany covers several provinces (and it's not Province of Bolzano - Trentino-South Tyrol). My evidence is the statements about the official name on German wikipedia, Italian wikipedia and French wikipedia, and the official statute of the province in German and Italian. I found something interesting here, page 39 and further: apparently the provincial government introduced the names Autonome Provinz Bozen/Südtirol and Provincia autonoma di Bolzano/Alto Adige, but the official names are (or were in 2002) Autonome Provinz Bozen and Provincia autonoma di Bolzano. It also says that since autumn 2001, the region is officially called Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol (pg 40). Markussep 15:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't blow off the examples as entirely irrelevant, especially the example of Province of Trento-Trentino. The primary point is that it is customary that the province is named after the major city in the province; with no region/area attached to it. You can easily verify this by looking at the provincial names in Italy, right? I was aware that in the past few years they went to stating Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol explicitly in the Italian constitution, and I feel that was a very good move by the Gov't. If they have made a change to the name of the province itself -- that is really news to me. I don't know if we should really go by other wikipedia pages though if we really want to get down to the fact of the matter. If it is indeed official though, it is pretty sloppy looking, I must say.. LOL. I imagine most people will continue to refer to it as simply the Province of Bolzano. Anyway, my opinion would still be to move to Province of Bolzano. Also, it will get away from a whole new debate of: Province of Bolzano-Alto Adige, Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol, Province of Bozen-South Tyrol, Province of Bozen-Alto Adige, etc., etc. :-) The Trentino-Alto Adige move is still confusing on its own. I tend to again like to go with Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol since it is official. Also, it gets away from the debate of Trentino-Alto Adige (which I still believe is the name most widely used in English) vs Trentino-South Tyrol. Any thoughts? regards. Taalo 21:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I'll try to find some time to research it more. At this point it is really hard to tell if it is really an official new name of the province. If it is indeed the case (which I'm not convinced yet :), I'm thinking we would maybe go with Province of Bolzano-Alto Adige/Südtirol to go along with Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. This is going to get crazy.. hah. :-) later. Taalo 22:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't suggest using the full official name as the article title in either case (we don't have an article named "République Française", "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" or translated versions of those either). Alto Adige, Südtirol and Province of Bolzano refer to the same place, so one of them should suffice. Markussep 14:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, well then for the province/area, I think I would favour Province of Bolzano so it is consistent (I like consistency!) with all the other provincial pages (which have all been named or moved to Province of ...'). Then I'd (just me personally) would go with Trentino-Alto Adige for the Italian region since this is what is used in the majority of English references (Britannica, etc., etc.). Anyway, since at least we know for a fact that the official name of the region is Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, I'll add that to the first paragraph. I think that at least should have no debate. The town names are still the most interesting debate afterall. I see the point in going by the local majority language. Though, in Stelvio/Stilfs, I believe Stelvio is the much more common name for the village and Pass. Anyway, glad Lars is taking on the task of deciding.. LOL. take care. Taalo 17:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
It's all very simple if you consider a couple of Wikipedia rules: 1) Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) (and not Italian) and we do not use official names, therefore it's Italy and not Italian republic, Aosta Valley and not "Autonomous region of Aoste" or whatever, as well Sicily and not Sicilia. 2) Wikipedia:Neutral point of view South Tyrol is more neutral than using Alto Adige or Province of Bolzano. Hope you read through the policies and think about it. ciao Gryffindor 18:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I definitely agree with your set of examples. But, well, I'd have to say that "South Tyrol is more neutral than using Alto Adige or Province of Bolzano." is definitely a debatable statement. :-) I feel using the Province of Bolzano is the most neutral form. Why? 1) it fits very well with the convention used on all the other Italian province pages 2) it is the official and universally known name for the province. As soon as the name of the area comes into play, i.e. Alto Adige/Sudtirol/South Tyrol, etc., (especially with the title of the page) then it can easily get more into politics of he says, she says (German and Italian POV). With regards to using English, Province of Bolzano is just as much English as South Tyrol. Anyway, if I had my way, I'd most like to use Province of Bolzano-Bozen; then a redirect from Alto Adige/Sudtirol/South Tyrol to the province page. This is what is done with the Province of Trento and "Trentino". Then each of those pages can have a write-up actually trying to briefly explain to people what the areas names mean..hah. Then on the Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol (or whatever the heck it is finally called) I'd concentrate more on the history of the region and these two areas. Now a lot of information is duplicated. Anyway, I'm interested how we can do the names in a good way. I would of still preferred to just have double-barrel names. I saw that for Ortisei that the Ladin name was used. The thing though is that Ortisei is definitely more commonly used -- and in the end it is the same word as in Ladin! (but a whole lot easier to read). Also, it would be nice to really research into what town names were invented as well. From that prontario it was really difficult to decipher where new stuff was invented. Someday I'd like to see the history section have all the facts but in a neutral fashion. Then a concentration on actually giving useful information about the provinces. There has been forced Germanisation, there has been forced Italianisation, even forced Romanisation. That is the past, at least the end result can be nice. There isn't really much I like more than the area from Innsbruck to Verona. :-) anyway, you two have a nice weekend. Taalo 22:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Trentino-South Tyrol mess

Wouldn't you agree that the official document from the official website of the Province of Bolzano says a lot? It was pointed out in the talk page of Lars: [1]. I find it rather interesting myself. Rarelibra 21:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Dialects

Hi dude, yeah, yeah, sorry, Ladin is not a dialect. Someone who does language studies told me this some time ago. It is just that in Italy there are literally thousands of languages spoken locally. I guess, and wrongly so, people have gotten used to calling them dialects. But, what is for sure, Ladin, like all these other local languages are those of the Italian people. Nones is very similar to Ladin actually. I don't speak it so well (Nones that is), but I do understand it as it is grammatically very similar to Italian. You know what, it is a darn fun language too! Anyhay.. My best regards. ps. these "debates" have at least gotten to a point of being quite interesting, eh? Well, as soon as Martin Se pulls back his volcano on his user page -- we might all be friends.. hah. :-) Taalo 22:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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