Talk:Mary Baker Eddy
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[edit] Miscellaneous
I added the quote about her attempt to sue the city and it's reference, please do not revert without a good reason, it is cited. 165.146.79.126 17:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC) ---
I don't think wikipedia is meant to be just a list of external links. Please write at least a stub article giving her dates of birth and death, and what makes her historically noteworthy. Is she the founder of Christian Science?? Wesley
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Note to 68.155.125.136: Your comment on Hinduism has a definite fundamentalist polemical nature. I know CS and MBE's writings thoroughly, and Hinduism pretty well, and I can tell you she tended to have more negative inclination than positive on it. She not only never "acknowledged" (note the spelling) such connection (even if she briefly imagined it might hint at a Christian transcendence), she rooted herself emphatically in Christianity, in repeated opposition to "heathenism" and "paganism", however narrowly you yourself may define Christianity. I think I can also inform you your claim that her "followers" omitted such text is absurd. She was redactor of her own constant revisions to the book, and while she occasionally sought others' input on how the ideas came across, she was in fact extremely jealous of its purity and resistant as a rule to their ideas, as her secretary Adam Dickey observed at some length. I'd recommend you read through the Peel biographies or similar works, let alone Science and Health itself, first before interposing speculative conjectures. Chris Rodgers 10:04, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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This is a very poorly written article. I would suggest making the first paragraph more than a list of disconnected sentences. Go from there.
[edit] Have begun the footnoting process
As a wiki source for information on one of the most significant female American leaders in American religious history, this biographical article needs some serious attention. As an amatuer historian on Church history including from early Christianity through modern times as well as a touch on Christian Science, I will try to add more information including an extensive bibliography. While Eddy remains highly controversial to this day and she deserves an even-handed treatment and an extensive biography. She remains highly interesting not only to her followers but also to her detractors, American religious scholars and is too often overlooked in discussions on the development of both American philosophical as well as theological thought. SimonATL 01:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Balance
The wikipedian who deleted the external link to former Christian Scientists tried to remove that balance from the Christian Science article earlier. Do go be man 08:20, 09 June 2006 (UTC)
- It should be noted that one of the "Core Beliefs" of those behind the external link referred to, is that "people who are not followers of Jesus Christ will spend eternity in hell." (Presumably this includes people who, through no fault of their own, never got a chance to hear of Jesus Christ as well as--in some instances--the fathers and mothers of the "saved".) Please note that this is an entry on Mary Baker Eddy, the discoverer and founder of Christian Science, not an entry on Protestant fundamentalism. If you believe that there is an imbalance in the entry you are free to edit it like anyone else, but please stop adding irrelevant material.81.108.28.190 18:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The site referred to is maintained by former Christian Scientists who had long experience with Christian Science which Mary Baker Eddy is said to have discovered. Rather than edit and clutter an article obviously biased towards Christian Science, I felt it more appropriate to simply provide access to an alternate perspective. --Do go be man 20:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The edit war to retain the link to The Christian Way is getting silly. It is not intended to be as threatening as it appears to be. --Do go be man 16:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I absolutely agree. The biographical page on Mary Baker Eddy is not the place to include an article providing an alternative view to/of Christian Science any more than a link to former protestants who have become muslims would be appropriately included in a biographical article on Martin Luther. Digitalican 16:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science are linked. Perhaps it would not be appropriate to include a section discussing alternate views of her teachings, but a link that provides balance to a POV article should not be so threatening. Mary Baker Eddy claimed to be a Christian (a claim I don't necessarily dispute). The opportunity to consider a Christian perspective on her teachings is appropriate. The example of former protestants who became muslims offering alternate views in a biographical article on Martin Luther may not be appropriate unless their new philosophy had a direct connection to their old. --Do go be man 17:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not threatening, it's inappropriate. As it stands the article is on her, not on her teachings. (You've missed the point of a biographical article on Martin Luther being about him not about the theology of protestantism.) If you feel the biographical article is POV then, obviously, it needs to be rewritten -- something which would be a constructive approach and which I would certainly agree with.
Since you've now violated the three revert rule I guess we'll have to go to mediation. Digitalican 17:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Still being a relative newbie to Wikipedia, I was not aware of the 3 revert rule and had to look it up. We've discussed the relevancy of the Christian Way link before. Apparently, we both have strong feelings regarding the relevancy of providing balance within topics which have inherent points of view. So, how do we reach a civil resolution? --Do go be man 17:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
You and I have not discussed this, at least in context of this page. As I see it there's no inherent POV in a biography, which should be factual. (If it is not, then it needs to be rewritten. Adding links does not accomplish balance, it just confuses and adds to clutter.) Links to Christian Way are possibly appropriate to pages that directly discuss Christian Science theology and belief and nobody has removed them from those pages. My objection, as it was to inclusion of the link on the Christian Science Board of Directors article, is that it isn't directly relevant to the subject of this article.
I've requested intervention from the Mediation Cabal, which seems a reasonable first step. Digitalican 18:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, I'm Addhoc from the mediation-cabal. Firstly, could I ask Do go be man, whether he believes the external link contains biographical information about Mary Baker Eddy that isn't currently in the article? Addhoc 12:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Addhoc. Yes, I do believe that the external link contains biographical information about Mary Baker Eddy that isn't currently in the article. Thanks. --Do go be man 01:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Thanks for your response, could you outline this biographical information? Addhoc 09:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Mary Baker Eddy's life and times are a frequent topic of discussion on the Christian Way forums. The forums provide the opportunity for Christian Scientists, former Christian Scientists, and anyone else to share perspectives regarding the life of Mary Baker Eddy, her writings, the organizations she founded, and the impact her life had on others. For example, Christian Way Forums: The Gill biography of MBE... a middle view.
There are many others, but time for providing such examples is short and likely not considered relevant to this discussion. The web site itself provides a resource list supporting and not supporting Christian Science including biographies of Mary Baker Eddy:
Again, may not be as relevant to this discussion as it could be.
The issue was well put below by Beland (in Critical Perspective):
"Eddy is the founder of a rather controversial religion. If you take a look at Joseph Smith, Jr. or Martin Luther, you'll see a section which summarized their main teachings, which is missing here...The current version of this article is overly symphathetic, only mentioning that Eddy was controversial" and not giving us any details on what sort of criticism she personally encountered."
As I sampled Wikipedia biographies, I found that biographical articles included the concept that their lives are inexorably intertwined with their writings, actions, and organizations they founded. From Joseph Smith and Martin Luther to Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Sun Myung Moon, Kip McKean, L. Ron Hubbard, and Jim Jones, I found links to sites which offered alternative perspectives on the lives of those men. Even the article on Alcoholics Anonymous founder, Bill W., contains links to sites critical of AA.
I could have written the "Controversy" section suggested by Beland, however, felt it best and more respectful to keep matters simple by only including the Christian Way link. Should Addhoc decide the link should be removed, I will defer and consider writing the suggested section.
In the meantime, I would like offer some notes regarding my credentials and those of some of my fellow former Christian Scientist Christian Way associates (BTW, we have frequent contributions from Christian Scientists as well which include comments on the life and biographies of Mary Baker Eddy).
Many of us were multi-generational Christian Scientists who lived, breathed, and studied Mary Baker Eddy's writings for decades. Her life served as a model for us. We received the same training required of a Christian Science Practitioner listed in the Christian Science Journal for which she provided. In appropriate circumstances, we are entitled to use the title "C.S." following our names in much the same way as other credentialed professionals and scholars. Some served in the full-time practice of Christian Science.
I've posted almost 1,400 messages on the Christian Way forums. Recently, a Christian Scientist who earned a Ph.D. mentioned that he appreciated my scholarly approach. I try to provide citations and proof texts for much of what I write. I also hold an post graduate degree.
Thus, while Mary Baker Eddy's supporters may not agree with much of what the Christian Way offers, it does have the authority and credibility of experience, training, and documentation. --Do go be man 17:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- Let me offer a solution/compromise. After looking at some similar biographical pages, it seems what may be needed here is a Wikipedia article on "Controversy Surrounding Christian Science." This is very similar to the Wiki link off of the Joseph Smith page. It would also provide a place to put some of the argumentation currently on the Christian Science and Church of Christ, Scientist pages that will facilitate their cleanup. Do go be man can then put an external link to Christianway.org on that page.
- If that is not acceptable, a link to specific places on the Christianway.org site dealing with alternative views or criticism of Mary Baker Eddy's biography would seem more appropriate than the current link which points to the christianway.org web site as a whole. Digitalican 18:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, creating a new article seems like a lot of effort to avoid leaving in an external link that has precedence on many other pages. I have to admit to a level of curiosity as to why not leave things as they are. --Do go be man 20:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, the situation appears to be that you want the link included, while three editors on this page want the link removed. The link has more relevance to some other articles, but doesn't contain much biographical information not already in the article. In this context, I would suggest the link should be removed. Addhoc 20:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
As agreed, I will defer to the authority of the mediator and remove the link under the protest that precedence in other articles indicates this article will be treated by different standards. I will also begin working on the suggested section regarding "Controversy". I remain curious regarding the agendas of those who objected to the link. --Do go be man 21:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Peel Book not originally church-authorized
Robert Peel's trilogy on Eddy was not published originally by the CS church, nor was it, from the beginning, so-called authorized literature. All that - developed later. Consequently, in the biography section I changed the wording to read "eventually church authorized.SimonATL 15:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Fine, but to call it definitive is a bit much, smacks of POV to me 165.146.95.152 18:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
... controversial 1999 work by a non-Christian Scientist, Gillian Gill ... Where is a non-OR source to back up the contention that this book is controversial? If one can't be found, I suggest deleting this characterization. Nashville 00:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Gill Book not authoritative
From the introduction, Gill demonstrates a profound ignorance and MIS-understanding of much about both Eddy as well as the Church she founded. For example, in the intro, she displays complete ignorance of the purpose for the building of the Mother Church ediface as well as its Extension. It goes down hill from there. Speaking of Mrs. Eddy's pincushion, for example, Gill says, "When I read of the rigid routine; the priority given to punctuality, cleanliness, and unvarying order; the exact place each pin had to occupy on Mrs. Eddy's pincushion, my heart fills with gloom." No mention of Eddy's teaching, "perfection undelies reality," and why? Because Gill doesn't really understand Eddy nor her teaching. From the intro on, with a ton of "I think this" and "I think that" observations, Gill attempts to understand and explain Eddy but fails, in my opinion, miserably. "Authorized literature of the First Church of Christ, Scientist?" Unbelievable! Why would the Church, which sometimes refused her access to its own historical Archives, forcing her to work with the CS "renegade" Ann Beals., nevertheless, give it their moniker? Some have told me it was simple - so Eddy's theological critics wouldn't get ahold of the bio and say, "See what we told you about that woman." Smart politics - Church "authorization" almost completly defused that result SimonATL 15:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Critical perspectives
Eddy is the founder of a rather controversial religion. If you take a look at Joseph Smith, Jr. or Martin Luther, you'll see a section which summarized their main teachings, which is missing here. You'll also see coverage of the community's reaction to their teachings, which is of course a major event in their lives. The current version of this article is overly symphathetic, only mentioning that Eddy was "controversial" and not giving us any details on what sort of criticism she personally encountered. Note, for example, this passage from Christian Science Monitor:
- The Monitor's inception was, in part, a response by Eddy to the journalism of her day, which relentlessly covered the sensations and scandals surrounding her new religion with varying degrees of accuracy. In addition, Mark Twain's blisteringly critical book Christian Science stung Eddy particularly, and according to many historians led Eddy to found her own media outlet.
This article just says the paper was "devoted to balance". Ahem.
Regarding the Christian Way dispute, I see a minimal amount of content there that covers Eddy's biography specifically, with some minor details which might be added here. (Though given the anti-CS nature of the site, I would seek out a more reliable source.) [1] I don't think it's appropriate for this article, but it is appropriate for Christian Science, and indeed it's already listed there under Criticism.
-- Beland 12:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. Personally, I don't have a problem with a NPOV tag. Also, I agree the Christian Way link doesn't appear to include much biographical information and I wouldn't object to this information being included in the article, possibly using different sources. Addhoc 13:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Possible Source - up to you
I've found a reliable source with a passing mention. I don't know enough about MBE to evaluate if using it would create an undue weight issue. So I'll quote and cite for you - go to edit mode to see the full citation. It is a short paragraph in a section on Warren, Maine. "The founder of Christian Science spent some time here in 1864. Then Mrs. Patterson, she gave several lectures which she reported in a series of charming letters. Publicly advertised title of one of her lectures was 'P. P. Quimby's Spiritual Science Healing Disease - as opposed to Deism or Rochester-Rapping-Spiritualism.'[1]" GRBerry 03:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Legacy Reference should be made to Mary Baker Eddy's full legacy, including her Deed of Trust, the Church Manual, the unbroken heritage of Christian Science Class Instruction, the documented healings attributed to her, and "The Great Litigation" which is standard study for all law students, which is a landmark case involving the legal instruments Mrs. Eddy established. The Great Litigation was reported in the Christian Science Monitor newspaper in the early 1920's. Also, photographic books were made of her home in Concord, New Hampshire in 1897 entitled "Pleasant View" 20 plates of the home of Rev. Mary Baker Eddy, and also of her home in Brookline, Massachusetts entitled "Scrapbook", published posthumously by the head of her estate's security detail. A collector's silver spoon which she authorized in her lifetime which bears her image is still popular among collectors. When people would visit her she would encourage them to buy a dozen of them! Regarding her fame, she always made headlines in all the leading newspapers of her day. She was a self-made millionaire in a time when women could not even vote and pioneered in women's rights. She was the highest-paid women author of her day, and yet her natural born son never learned to read or write, but this did not discourage her from pursuing her life's work.66.156.0.212 04:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)profeugen
- Correction on the "Great Litigation" between the CS Board of Directors and the Trustees of the CS Publishing Society. I have been a CSist for over 30 years and never heard the Great Litigation discussed in Law School nor do I know of anyone else who's heard it discussed. But that's just my particular experience. SimonATL 19:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Founder of a religion?
A new category has been started for founders of religions. Should Mary Baker Eddy be included in this category? I think most people would think so. Is there a reason why not? Thanks. Steve Dufour 22:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
