Talk:Martyr

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	To-do list for Martyr:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Here are some tasks you can do: Verify: More references required (citations) Expand: More is needed on secular martyrdom e.g. political martyrdom (e.g. apartheid) Coverage of martyrdom as a strategy in warfare Killing an important figure may only strengthen an enemy's resolve and inspire new recruits (e.g. execution of Saddam Hussein) Martyrdom as a battlefield tactic - e.g. children blowing up tanks in the Iran-Iraq War Martyrdom as it relates to the sociological love styles, agape in particular.
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Contents 1 Early discussion 2 Proposed sentences for Removal from "Hero or Villian?" section 3 20th century martyrs 4 Martyr Category 5 In Islam 6 Martyrs of the Spanish Inquisition 7 "Shaheed" 8 Jewish Martyrs/others 9 Greek 10 70.106.184.67 11 Anti-Catholic persecution in Britain 12 72 virgins? 13 Misspelling of the word Which 14 Book Plug? 15 Political Martyrs 16 Scope of article

[edit] Early discussion

Christians of all three major divisions of Christianity--Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants--have long histories of killing other Christians in the name of orthodoxy. The current article for the most part only treats of persecutions by Catholics. Mention is made of the persecutions of Protestants under Queen Mary of England, for example, without reference to the fact that Catholics were martyred in England under the reign of her father King Henry VIII (e.g. Sir Thomas More, Cardinal John Fisher, and others) and hundreds others under her successor Queen Elizabeth. As such, the writer unintentionally gives the impression of anti-Catholic bias.

Also, great care should be taken when citing "Foxe's Book of the Martyrs" as a historical source. While it was, and to some degree remains, a classic of Protestant spirituality, both Anglican and Catholic scholars acknowlege that its primary purpose was to edify and inspire Protestants, and as such it contains many historical inaccuries. Respectfully, --BTG 17:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

No basis for that statement, so it was removed.

a modern definition of martyr should include the way of using it in everyday speech to suggest that someone is making a big deal out of their own work or suffering, implies criticism.

I am removing the following:

This claim is of course but one point of view, and the veracity of such a claim tends to be measured not in the merits, but in terms of the outcomes of conflict. ("History is written by the victor.")

which comes right after the note about American President saying that American war dead have sacrificed themselves for freedom. It is pretty obvious that this is in fact President's point of view, and there is no need to rub it in here. Also, this is not about the winners or losers writing history. In American historiography American soldiers die for freedom in all wars (or at least they should be). Obviously, in Arab historiography they die for different causes. Both the winners and losers write their histories and write them the way they feel like, except perhaps for the more extreme cases such as the Russians heavily influencing writing of history textbooks for the East European countries or something like that. Watcher 01:35, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed sentences for Removal from "Hero or Villian?" section

The last three sentences at the end of "Hero or Villian?" section seem to be a digression into the discussion of war crimes rather than martyrs and are fairly POV as well:

In the West intentional efforts to kill as many civilians as possible are generally considered war crimes, as opposed to the death of civilians that is incidental to accomplishment of other goals, such as destruction of military or industrial infrastructure. Such fine distinctions are generally not made by anti-war and pacifist movements who denounce any death of civilians as war crimes and generally consider war a crime as of itself with essential moral equivalence between the two combatants, even if one of them kills civilians wholesale and other only accidentally. They are also not made by non-Western nations deemed guilty of war crimes under this standard because they would generally seek to establish a moral equivalence between their actions and actions of Western or American militaries.

Given that there weren't any objections, I've removed them from the main article mennonot 16:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 20th century martyrs

Many church historians believe that there were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century than in the first 19 centuries combined.

Is there any proof to back this statement up? I would like to see who all these martyrs are.--Lucky13pjn 01:54, Jul 3, 2004 (UTC)

I second that request for a reference. Surveying all martyrs over the last 19 centuries would be a huge task and perhaps impossible due to lack of documentation. I also wonder what definition of martyr is being used here.

Well, it's been over two months, and since nobody has replied to back up this statement, I am going to remove it until someone can.--Lucky13pjn 18:26, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

I question the following statement, and ask for verification of it.

Estimates of Christian martyrs in the 21st century are about 450 daily, and 160,000 yearly.

If it can't be verified, I think it should be taken out. Chris Peterson 10:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)chrisptx

[edit] Martyr Category

Would it be useful to create a martyr category? Does something like this exist already? There's the beginning of a list over at christian martyrs mennonot 22:52, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would say yes. The only problem I see is controversy on the inclusion of some people's articles into the category.--Lucky13pjn 23:51, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

FYI, I'm currently in edit conflicts with User:Bakasuprman in a variety of articles regarding inclusion in Category:Hindu martyrs. In regards to this some sort of clarification needs to be done in terms of the definitions for categorization. It cannot be enough that an individual wiki editor, or a referenced writer/journalist/politician, etc., feels that a certain person has become a martyr. --Soman 19:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Certain users seem to be bent on emptying the cat of entries which definitely meet the definition of martyr. MArtyr and martyrdom are two different things, and a reliable source to back up an assertion based on the definition of martyr should be enough.Bakaman 20:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

No, there cannot be any npov definition of 'martyr' if the concept is to be separated from 'martyrdom'. It cannot be enough that a person feels that another person is a 'martyr' (then the categories could populate beyond limits), there is a need to provide source that there is some sort of collective recognition of martyrdom. If martyrs are to be classified by religious lines, then the categorization need to be done based on religious practice. --Soman 20:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Which is where a mainstream printed source comes in, satisfying the definition of martyr and therefore in the process validating the point. It cannot be enough that one user has a definition of what can and cannot happen, and tries to cherrypick wording detrimental to the usefulness of the cat.Bakaman 02:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Which is a direct reference to a series of comments on another talk page. See Talk:Bineshwar Brahma to get some context of the debate. --Soman 02:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In Islam

Muslims were subjected to persecution at the hands of the polytheists of Mecca; see Persecution of Muslims for more detail.

I'm not sure how this pertains to the section. I've left in "see Persecution of Muslims", but that link and the text doesn't seem to comment on shahid or martyrs. While I have no doubt that Muslims were subjected to persecution, the Hadith addresses the concept of the shahid in an entirely different context. I removed the text because it reads as a non sequitur. I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong, so I would welcome any comment on my edits. - Viriditas

I'm not sure which Hadith you're referring to, but I put Sumaya in because, according to the hadiths cited in the page linked to, she was the first shahida (or indeed martyr of either sex) of Islam, at the hands of Abu Jahl. - Mustafaa 12:22, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why is there not a section of martyrs to Christian Intolerance. I mean how many people where slaughtered because of this. I mean Hypatia is one example..how bout the cathar's of southern France, or the salem wittch trials or the native peoples in North america. I think this article needs a section on Martyrs of Christian intolerance to be taken seriously.

Don't forget that Islam is one of the most intolerable religions out there. There is no freedom of religion at all in Muslim countries. Many people have been murdered. A lot more than what that guy above said. Besides, there were no Puritan leaders present at the Salem witch trials, and the slaughtering of Native peoples wasn't carried out by Christians. You could say that if you take into account that the US was a "Christian" society, influenced by Christian morals, but you can't just take all the actions of wicked people in a generally "Christian" country, an stereo type them as representing Christianity.--24.32.34.213 02:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Martyrs of the Spanish Inquisition

I read somewhere that some group of victims of the Spanish Inquisition venerated those dead at its hands, mirroring the veneration of Christian martyrs, even when the pure form of their religion didn't allow this veneration. The problem is that I don't remember if the group was the Crypto-Jews or Moriscos. --Error 03:31, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Shaheed"

It redirects back to martyr. Would the term even be worth a new article? Just a minor thing, but still. Also, is it "shahid" or "shaheed?"

TaintedMustard 06:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Definition I think this definition page misses the main concept of MARTYR: That is that the martyr's life HAS BEEN TAKEN because of a refusal to compromise ones actions or belief: - rather than choosing to give ones life to make a moral point. The sacrificial giving of one's life for a cause is rightly not referred to as martyrdom (Matthew 21 May 2005)

[edit] Jewish Martyrs/others

There should probably be sections on martyrs from backgrounds than Christian and Muslim, especially Jewish. I couldn't do it, but I think it's desperately needed.

• I added a sort of stub--the phrase Kiddush Hashem, a brief quote from R. Ephraim ben Yaakov's famous account of the martyrdom at Blois (full description available at http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=112387 ). Clearly, this is a very small amount of information, and more is desperately needed... but at least something's there now. Makrina 18:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek

Edited in the Greek text for the etymology. --CaveatLector 05:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 70.106.184.67

I'm trying to revert the vandalism by this user, but for some reason I can't. If someone can do it, it would be helpful. JHMM13 (T | C) 08:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Catholic persecution in Britain

Please provide source for the statement about more people martyred by the Angelican Monarchs than by the Catholic ones, or remove it. I doubt that the number of Catholics killed could 'dwarf' the number of protestants killed under Queen 'Mary the Bloody'.

I agree. The section on Reformation martyrdom does not conform to the standards of neutrality expected here. Approximately 280-300 individuals were executed for religious reasons under Mary I. The Roman Catholic church recognises "Forty English Martyrs" from this period (canonised in 1970). Figures are complicated by the fact that some of those executed under Mary were probably Anabaptists, who would have been executed under Edward VI and Elizabeth I. Secondly, with one exception, Catholics were not executed for their religious beliefs specifically, but for treason/sedition.

More to the point, however, Anabaptists were not merely killed by Catholics, but by Lutherans and Reformed Christians as well. The claim in the article that Anabaptists somehow abandoned Christianity is hopelessly biased. They would certainly not have understood themselves as having done this.

What about Tupac? Bold text

[edit] 72 virgins?

Is there any basis for what I keep hearing -- that Muslim jihadists believe that martyrs are rewarded in the afterlife with 72 virgins? Does anyone know anything about that? --Hyphen5 03:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Read Sam Harris: The End of Faith (The End of Faith). "virgins" was probably a mistranslation of "white raisins" which were apparently a delicacy back then. All those suicide bombers must have been a little disappointed when they got there. 86.142.172.32 11:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

You can read more about this here, particularly in and around paragraph 30. Aecis ^{Find the fish} 17:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misspelling of the word Which

Towards the end of the article it is misspelled whjich.152.163.100.67 21:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Was it really necessary to tell us that? Mr. C.C. 16:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Book Plug?

I can't help but notice that the paragraph that starts "Hugh Barlow, in his new book Dead for Good: Martyrdom and the Rise of the Suicide Bomber (Boulder,CO: Paradigm Publishers, 2007), argues that..." is refering to a book that appears to be due to be published next year. As the book hasn't yet been published, I can only conclude that the preson citing it is involved in it in some way, and as such this strikes me as original research at best, and plugging one's own product at worst. 82.29.209.132 17:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's dancing on the line between reference and spam - I've moved it down to the reference section which is more appropriate. Richard001 20:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political Martyrs

Would it be proper to start a section on political martyrs in this article. Meaning: a person who is killed for their political beliefs, especially when that person represents a persecuted minority, and because of their death later becomes a symbol for members of some groups to rally around. Primary examples I can think of are Martin Luther King and Ghandhi. Or does that stretch and dilute the meaning of martyr too much? 69.95.233.36 20:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

In South Asian politics, the term shahid is commonly used for political martyrs. --Soman 19:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scope of article

There is a paragraph in the 20th century section which is really stretching the boundary here. Martyrdom is about belief in a higher ideology or cause, for example religion or political belief. Dying for one's friends or children doesn't really qualify as martrydom, and I would hesitate to describe Cassie Bernall as a martyr as well. The real question there is whether she would have been shot if she had said she didn't believe in God.

Martyrs can even be found in today's United States, particularly in school massacres. Cassie Bernall (died in Columbine High School massacre 1999) is believed to be a martyr by most Christians. After she had been asked by Eric Harris if she believed in God, she was fatally shot. A book written by Bernall's mother, Misty Bernall, called She Said Yes: The Unlikely Martyrdom of Cassie Bernall which discusses Cassie's teenage life and spirituality. Marian Fisher, one of the girls who died in the 2006 Amish schoolhouse massacre asked the killer to shoot her first in an apparent bid to save the younger girls who were being held as hostages together with her. Fisher's 11-year-old sister, Barbie, appealed to Roberts to shoot her next. In the Red Lake High School massacre, a student named Chase Lussier died saving one of his friend's lives.

I've removed all but the section on Bernall. Richard001 21:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the section on Bernall too now. See the Columbine High School massacre article for the details - it seems unlikely she even said this, and the two shooters were on a killing rampage - they weren't after any particular group. Richard001 02:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)