Talk:Marocchinate

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[edit] The Juin's speech - sourches

Source [1]
Quote:
All'alba del giorno scelto per l'attacco, il 14 maggio 1944, il generale Juin inoltrò agli uomini della 2ª divisione di fanteria (gen. Dody) e della 4ª divisione da montagna (gen. Guillaume) il seguente proclama: Soldati! Questa volta non è solo la libertà delle vostre terre che vi offro se vincerete questa battaglia. Alle spalle del nemico vi sono donne, case, c'è un vino tra i migliori del mondo, c'è dell'oro. Tutto ciò sarà vostro se vincerete. Dovrete uccidere i tedeschi fino all'ultimo uomo e passare ad ogni costo. Quello che vi ho detto e promesso mantengo. Per cinquanta ore sarete i padroni assoluti di ciò che troverete al di là del nemico. Nessuno vi punirà per ciò che farete, nessuno vi chiederà conto di ciò che prenderete" (3). (3)Luciano Garibaldi, L'assalto alle ciociare, in periodico "Noi", 1994.
Translation:
: At the down (...) of may, 14, 1944, general Juin delivered to the men of the 2nd Infantry Division (Gen. Dody) and to the men of the 4th Mountain Division (gen. Guillame), the following proclame "Soldiers! This time it not only the freedom of your land, I offer you, if you will win the battle. Beyond the shuolderbacks of the enemy, the are women, homes, there is one of the better wine in the world, there is some gold. All those things will be yours, if you will win. You will ought kill the German till the last man, and to pass at any cost. What I have told you and promised you, I will mantain. For fifty hours you will be the abosolute masters of what you will find beyond the enemy. Nobody will punish you for what you will do, nobody will question you for what you will bring" (3) Luciano Garibaldi, The Assult against the Ciocaria Women, in the magazin "Noi", 1994.

Source [2]:

Il generale Juin, al termine della battaglia di Cassino, diede ai suoi “goumiers” (da “goum”, reparto militare marocchino arruolato nel medesimo villaggio e clan) carta bianca per due giorni, come premio della vittoria che implicava il diritto di vita e di morte sulle popolazioni civili, il furto dei loro beni e la violenza sulle donne. Era stato questo l’incentivo che aveva convinto i marocchini a combattere per i francesi andando all’assalto delle posizioni nemiche alla testa dei reparti alleati. Così per due giorni e due notti razziarono, violentarono, uccisero. Stuprarono donne e bambine, dagli otto agli ottant’anni, obbligando padri e mariti ad assistervi.

Translation:

General Juin, after the end of the battle, give to his "guomiers (...) complete freedom (in it 'carta bianca' = white paper) for two days, as a reward for the victory; this is implied the right of life or death on the civilian populations, the stealing of their assets, the violence against the women. This was the benefit to convince the Moroccans to fight for the Frenchs and to assult the enemy positions in front of the Allies detachments. So, for two days and two nights, they plundered, the used violence, they killed. They raped women and she-children and they forced fathers and husbands to look.

I doubt he adressed his troops in Italian, so this is a translation of what source? If the general is quoted, he is to be quoted from the original, otherwise you have to say someone else says the general said this. There are some points that can be translated from French with a totally different meaning. Wandalstouring 17:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Source [2]:

"La furia bestiale che si abbatté sulle campagne e sui villaggi italiani, specie al Sud, dopo lo sbarco alleato ad Anzio e l’avanzata su Roma nella primavera del 1944, è ancora in parte sconosciuta, salvo che alle 60.000 donne, adolescenti e bambine che ne furono le vittime." This is not quite the style of a report on facts only. Wandalstouring 17:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

TO BE CONTINUED --Giovanni Giove 17:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you have some scientific sources? A history professor writing about this? Wandalstouring 17:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Facts

First of all, congratulations to Giovanni for starting this article on a (relatively) not-well known campaign in the English-speaking world. Also to his bravery for presenting unflattering facts. I do, though, have to wonder about the veracity of claims such as mass male-on-male rape and bestiality and would like to see some direct quotes and references provided for these claims. For that reason, I've added the dispute tag to the article.Michael DoroshTalk 17:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I understand that the first thing I ought to do, is to translate a scientific paper. That what I'm going to do, piece after piece, when I have time. I'll stop other answers for the moment--Giovanni Giove 23:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A "scientific" paper

Translation of [3].

Tommaso BARIS

Montecassino 1944, “Scatenate i marocchini” (“Unleash the Moroccans”)

From “Millenovecento”, n. 14, December 2003.

Tommaso Baris is a Ph.D. student in contemporary history at the faculty of Political Sciences, at the University of Rome "La Sapienza". His master degree thesis "Bellic experience and social changes. The impact of the war on the civil population of the Frosinone area 1943-1948" won the first edition of the "Luigi Micheletti" award. About the same subject he wrote the book "Fra due fuochi" (Between two fires), edit by Laterza.


In the spring of 1944, the allies (omitted facts about the attacks)....


During their overwhelming push on, for about two weeks, from may, 15 to the begging of Juin, nearly halved by the German resistance (at the end of the battle Goumiers were lowered at about 7000 men), French troops lapsed into an impressive series of plunders murders and rapes in all the conquered towns, mainly against limited groups of people, or single person, until it was ordered them to stop their march in Valmontone. The orderly nature of the violence and the substantial assent of the commanders and the officers, spread the belief of the liberty of action given to the colonial soldier against the civilians, despite the sanctions provided by the military codes for the mentioned crimes. In a memorandum memorandum of the Presidenza del Consiglio (First Minister Cabinet), the behavior of the French officer was hardly stigmatized because «far from to intervene and to repress those crimes, they instead attacked furiously the civilian population that tried to oppose» (3).

«Officers let to Moroccans a pretty good liberty of action » and «in general they preferred to ignore e somebody told to the irregulars Moorccans that they had the right of prey».

A note of Juin, 25, 1944 of the General Command of the Carabinieri Corp of Free Italy, delivered to the First Minister Cabinet reported that in the ‘comuni’ (towns) of Giuliano di Roma, Patrica, Ceccano, Supino, Morolo, e Sgurgola, in three days only (from juin,2 to the 5), 418 sexual violence, of which 3 against men, 29 murders , 517 stealing, committed by Moroccans soldier, who «enraged against those populations freezing them. A very high number of women, girls and she-children (…) were raped, often repeatedly, by soldier possessed by an unbridled sexual and sadist exaltation, several times they forced the parents and the husbands to attend the slaughters. Always by the Morroccan soldiers, several citizens were plundered of all their wealths and of their livestocks. Several homes were plundered and often they were devasted and burned.» (5).

WORK IN PROGRESS-TO BE CONTINUED--Giovanni Giove 23:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not exactly a scientific paper, but "Esperienza bellica e mutamenti sociali. L'impatto della guerra sulla popolazione civile del Frusinate 1943-1948" is. Could you translate this preferably. Yes, the author of this paper has a scientific degree and furthermore it contradicts the opinion expressed in the article that French officers did nothing, from an Italian perspective they did not enough. Wandalstouring 08:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Some references that might be worth to check out:

  • Monte Cassino: The Hardest Fought Battle of World War II by Matthew Parker
  • Monte Cassino: The Story of the Most Controversial Battle of World War II by David Hapgood
  • War in Italy 1943-1945: A Brutal Story by Richard Lamb
  • Cassino: The Hollow Victory: The Battle for Rome January-June 1944 by John Ellis
  • The Path to Victory: The Mediterranean Theater in World War II by Douglas Porch

I will personally read Parkers book because my local library as an ex. I have checked it out on www.amazon.com and according to the index in the book it contains information about the Goumiers action during the battle. Carl Logan 09:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It is about the Goumiers action after the battle of Monte Cassino. Wandalstouring 09:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Have you read the book? Carl Logan 10:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
No, I just wanted to remind you, that this article is not about the significant deeds of the Goumiers in this battle. Wandalstouring 12:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but the index entry about the Goumiers have to sub sections: "German propaganda targeted at" and "as rapists and looters" I think both have relevance to the article. Carl Logan 12:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two women

Wandalstouring insist to add this comment to the link about "Two women":(about soldiers raping Italian women in a church, no reference to this incident in the description of the plot given with this link -> no source).
IMHO it is a nonsens. I suggest that is enough to see the movie, to see some Moroccan solidier raping the mother (Sophia Loren) and the daughter. They wear their typical uniform and no mistake are possible. In any case, in the other external links, it is possible to read about the connection between the movie and the mass rape in Ciociaria. If you need a translation, just ask me.--Giovanni Giove 15:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Just give an official English description of the plot stating Goumiers raping. Wearing a Goumier uniform does not mean it is a Goumier (other French troops participated as our English sources state and at this time uniforms were a mess in the French army). Wandalstouring 16:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Here [ http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1540-6563.00026?journalCode=hisn#search=%22goumiers%20sophia%20loren%22] And it's also the "scientific" work. If you can download it.--Giovanni Giove 16:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a link to an abstract. So what? If a common user can not access it, it is no source. Read the guidelines. I think you spent some time in an university. As long as you write "scientific" like this it looks rather ironic and enhances doubts on the value of all your contributions. So far. Wandalstouring 18:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
And what the heck does the pope have to do with this film? Did he play in it? I think you are a bit confused.
1. Here it is about providing a source stating that Goumiers raped in this film. Preferably in English.
2. Your overall articles lacks some verifiable sources, while you repeatedly use the content of one website. As some research has shown there are some substantial critics to your presentation and you failed to provide the different points of view. (Take a look at the abstract of the English source). Wandalstouring 18:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Look in the link. It speaks about la Ciociara and Sophia Loren and the Goumiers. OK? I spent time at university and so? But sorry, I'm not an historian. My article has all the sources that you want.... yes in Italian, I'm sorry. But there are aslo official acts of the Itlian parlament. I know I've not quoted them well, but I wrote a STUB, not an article, and sorry, I've no so much time. Anyway, what do you want? DO you think I work with fantasy? OK, came with me. Came in Cassino. I will introduce you the people, you will talk with them, ad I did. You will hear, you will know.--Giovanni Giove 21:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
"The Historian

Volume 65 Page 403 - Winter 2002 doi:10.1111/1540-6563.00026 Volume 65 Issue 2


A Question of Race: Pope Pius XII and the "Coloured Troops" in Italy

Robert G. Weisbord & Michael W. Honhart"

That is all I can read. No Goumiers and no Sophia Loren is mentioned. The rest is not free info. You seem to lack some basics. No point of view rule means you present no point of view and try to work with sources from all sides. You failed this essential rule of wikipedia. Still you are very confused. Nobody ever doubted the existance of these rapes, but there are substantial reasons to doubt your presentation. I am sure there is an article in the Italian wikipedia and they will be grateful for your contribution. Furthermore they can judge the quality of your Italian sources. If this article reaches FA quality in Italian, simply translate it. Wandalstouring 20:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extraordinary claims

Let's assume these claims are true: 7000 Goumiers survive the battle. They are given 50 hours to rape and pillage. In that time they rape 60,000 women, children, elderly, and animals. This gives the average Goumier a rape rate of 4 rapes/day! If one assumes that a few of these men didn't participate because they feared retribution, were decent people or disciplined soldiers, or were too physically exhausted after mountain warfare to find and rape four unique victims per day, then the statistics become even more unbelievable. Personally I think that a group of men that is capable of taking mountains filled with well-entrenched German defenders can't be all bad soldiers, or human garbage. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources is being stretched rather far given the "outlandishness" of the claims and the fact that we are relying almost exclusively on Italian sources. We also know that Axis propaganda capitalized on the Allies use of non-white troops.

I am going to be bold and delete some things. Haber 18:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a possible English source listed. Some months ago some English speaking editors even promised to research this, but well nothing happened.Concerning whether or not the Goumiers are bad people your idea is basically unsourced POV as much as the rape claims. Wandalstouring 05:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
My comments on this talk page are not sourced, but I think they prove that the claims are "extraordinary". Come on... raping animals? Where we really need to worry about sources is on the article page itself. Haber 13:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The article was loaded w/ blatant unsourced POV edits. Most of the article sections or paragraphs are still being unsourced. I had tagged some with fact tags waiting for sources. At the absence of sources those editions would be deleted. Let's just give it some time (a few weeks i suppose?) and see what would happen. -- Szvest Ω Wiki Me Up ® 14:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
You don't have to wait. I put the big template for this article several months ago and discussed it with the original editor. take a look here and into the archives of my talk page. I think that is enough justification. But I want no more unsourced speculations whether goumiers did or didn't do any war crimes. Source it or delete it. At least one English source with a short description is available. Wandalstouring 14:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Done. Please review. -- Szvest Ω Wiki Me Up ® 14:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks OK. Some more sourcing and this becomes a real article. Wandalstouring 15:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Much better. Thanks. Haber 15:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. By the way, i am not sure if you have heard of the movie Indigènes. -- Szvest Ω Wiki Me Up ® 16:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks interesting. Maybe I'll check it out. Haber 22:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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