Talk:Mario Andretti

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Contents 1 Opening paragraph 2 Mario Andretti: a few thoughts 3 High school 4 Who? 5 Assessment against GA criteria 6 Questor GP

[edit] Opening paragraph

The material claims that his name "is synonymous with speed." Although this may be accurate with many if not all auto racing fans, I have met some people who have never heard of him (shocker though that may be to open-wheel auto racing fans)...and as such, it is a pro-subject perspective. --Chr.K. 12:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mario Andretti: a few thoughts

I am not really sure if it is correct to say that Mario Andretti won four Champ Car titles. I think it would be more accurate to say that he won four titles in USAC and CART combined. He raced in the 60s and 70s and Champ Car was born only in 2004.

"In 2000, the Associated Press and RACER magazine named him 'Driver of the Century.'" This claim is quite an exaggeration. Mario Andretti is a legend, but he isn't the number one on the planet. Those Associated Press and RACER magazine folks have never seen Senna, Prost, or Schumacher in action! -- ICE77 84.222.103.55 21:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High school

I am trying to update high school affiliations for Lehigh Valley people. Does anyone know where he went to high school? PAWiki 18:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite possibly in Italy, judging by the biographical details at the start of the article proper, which indicate (but don't confirm) that he may not have arrived in the States until he was 18 or 19. 4u1e

He was 15 when he moved to the US, so he likely went to high school in the Lehigh Valley. I am expanding and sourcing the article to prepare it for a Good Article run. I haven't found anything yet, but I'll keep my eyes open for it. Royalbroil ^T : C 18:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Who?

The article says, "and claimed his fourth CART title. It was Newman's first series title." Now, I'm guessing the writer meant Newman-Haas Racing, but it'd be nice if it was clear.... Also, how old was Mario when he did it? (He's oldest driver to take a CART win, BTW.) Trekphiler 04:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment against GA criteria

I thought it might be helpful to do a dummy assessment against the GA criteria, in response to the request for an assessment on progress posted at the WP:MOTOR talk page. So here goes, this may take a little while :) 4u1e 7 March 2007, 13:02

6. Images PASS - Not essential to have anyway - we have a couple here illustrating the subject and both are licensed appropriately.

5. Stability PASS - no major changes in last week or so, and no apparent arguments.

4. NPOV FAIL on minor concerns - 'banner year', 'gruelling' Daytona (unless it was more than usually so), 'impressive pole position', 'Andretti's futility at Indy is legendary' (harsh wording, I wouldn't say he was futile!), 'horrifying accident' are not neutral terms. Actual structure and content seem neutral.

3. Broad coverage FAIL - Not because of a lack of breadth, the article covers all of his racing activities, although to varying degrees of detail. Only area not covered I could think of was one particular element of his personal life: who did he marry? Not directly relevant and some think we shouldn't include that kind of thing anyway.

The failure comes from 3b - staying focussed on the topic without going into non-notable detail. There is a largish list of trivia - most of which is non-notable. Much of it can be deleted - the remainder could be re-written as a short para to support the point that Andretti has (in a fairly minor way) entered American culture as a synonym for speed. This would go with the Barney Oldfield point.

2. Factual and Verifiable FAIL. All looks factually accurate to me, but not (easily) verifiable in its current form. I think this is mainly to do with the placement and selection of references. The inline citations don't always appear to cover all of the text, and sometimes don't relate to the point being referenced. What I normally do is to try and find one reference that covers the whole of each paragraph and link that ref at the end of the paragraph. If a further reference is required to cover a point within that paragraph I would place the ref where that point arises. The actual references used are OK (although I'd avoid IMDb as a source - it's a bit like using Wikipedia as a reference.). Try www.grandprix.com and www.formula1.com for info on Andretti's F1 career. Ideally I'd like to see more hardcopy references, but we can't always have what we want....

1. Well written The most difficult one to assess, so I'll come back to it. Cheers. 4u1e 7 March 2007, 13:38

Thank you for your review so far. As a member of WikiProject IROC, I need to add some of his IROC finishes, at least his 2nd in 1976 & 1978 and 1st in 1979. [1] It would interrupt the flow if I added in the middle of the Formula One section. Creating its own section would disrupt the chronological order. Any ideas on how to proceed? Royalbroil ^T : C 03:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Like I say, I hope it's helpful (looking back at it I'm now worrying I sound a bit harsh - apologies if so!). I can work on the F1 section, if you like, I have a few hardcopy refs I can use for that bit.

Regarding structure, with a career this complicated, I'd be inclined to do separate sections on each racing category and put them in roughly chronological order. That's probably the least confusing, given that there are significant overlaps between all of Mario's 'careers'. Would this order work:

• Stock cars (inc IROC?)(59 - IROC in 1980s?)
• Indycars (64 - 94)
• Sports cars (6? - 9?)
• Formula One (68 - 82)

I already knew this of course, but that's an incredible record, three decades in all categories! Where would dirt track racing go? F5000? I assume he competed in Can-Am as well? Maybe an 'Other categories' section as well? 4u1e 08:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't take your comments at all harsh. I had asked for a critique, and I expected it to be critical. I found your comments to be quite helpful, and I have started on your suggestions. This is the first article that I'm attempting to get up to Good Article status. I may push for Featured Article. I appreciate your help in this process, and feel free to tell me whatever you need to help with the process. I like your idea of organizing by racing category in roughly chronological order. I'll think more on that topic. Do you think that he have enough sports car racing to warrant its own section? I am not very familiar with Formula 1, so I would appreciate help completing and sourcing that part. I am very familiar with nearly all the other racing series. Royalbroil ^T : C 14:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that much about Mario in sports cars, the thing that seemed most notable to me is his continued attempts to win at Le Mans, until really quite recently, which seemed an appropriate way of rounding up his career. I also noted 3 wins at Sebring, so he must have competed a fair bit (or had a phenomenal strike rate!) 4u1e 23:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added a wee bit on Le Mans. Probably a bit long now I look at it - lose the second quote? 4u1e 17:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the second quote as it was somewhat off topic and speculative. The Triple Crown article is about winning Monaco, not the F1 title. I have heard several other combination of wins to produce the "triple crown", so I wonder about the accuracy of that article. A quick google search didn't support my combinations. I assume that this article from his official website cannot be used as a source since I intend to seek GA/FA. I really appreciate all your help in this process! Royalbroil ^T : C 18:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding using the Andretti's official site as a source. Probably depends what for. Should be OK for factual stuff, number of wins etc., but those can probably be sourced as easily elsewhere. Definitely OK if what you are talking about is Andretti's own views, I would say (i.e. Andretti believes that....). Not OK for views on Andretti's notability etc. Well, that's what I think, anyway! 4u1e 08:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that was probably the right decision. Although the Triple Crown has been defined both ways, I think the ambiguity comes from the fact that only one man has done it, and he had won both the Monaco GP and the F1 title. Perhaps I should edit that into the Triple Crown article too. 4u1e 18:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Please feel free to tinker with any words I add, by the way. I'm an 'eventualist' editor, and tend to write long (or bad!) and then work away at what I've written to make it shorter (or better). If you feel stuff needs editing for length, or needs moving around, go for it. 4u1e 18:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have usually seen the term winning the triple crown used for things that don't involve F1. There is a triple crown for winning all three USAC divisions. There is a triple crown for winning all 3 major NASCAR series. Other times it referred to winning three of the following: Daytona 500, Indianpolis 500, LeMans, 24 Hours of Daytona, other major races in different genres, etc. You're far too hard on your writing! Royalbroil ^T : C 19:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questor GP

I've deleted the material on the Questor GP from the article. An account of the race can be found here [2]. Mistakes included the claim that Phil Hill (retired 1967) and Jochen Rindt (died 1970) competed in this 1971 race, and that Andretti won from the back (he did win, but qualified 12th of 30). The race also isn't all that notable, Andretti had already beaten Jackie Stewart, and many of the other drivers involved, at the 1971 South African Grand Prix to take his first F1 win. 4u1e 18:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I am unfamiliar with the race or too much with Formula One in general, so I'll stick with your better judgement. Royalbroil ^T : C 19:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I've put a brief mention back in, the details were all wrong, but it's his only other F1 victory until the '76 season. Cheers. 4u1e 07:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)