Talk:Marián Gáborík

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Marian Gaborik.Joelito (talk) 14:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I am requesting that this article be moved from Marián Gáborík to Marian Gaborik because the most common way of spelling it in English is Marian Gaborik and not Marián Gáborík. My requested move is backed up by:

• Wikipedia:Naming conventions "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) "If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works. This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources."
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics) "Diacritics should only be used in an article's title, if it can be shown that the word is routinely used in that way, with diacritics, in common usage. This means in reliable English sources, such as encyclopedias, dictionaries, or articles in major English-language newspapers." and "If the word is routinely listed in reliable English sources without diacritics, then the Wikipedia article should follow that method for the article title, though the diacritics version should be given in the initial paragraph of the article as suggested in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)." and "If it is not clear what "common usage" is, then the general Wikipedia guideline is to avoid use of diacritics in article titles."
• Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format#Use of diacritics and non-English characters

A quick google search, minus wikipedia, english only websites, clearly reveals that Marian Gaborik is the most common way to refer to this article in English [1]

• espn
• nhl.com
• nhlpa.com
• wild.com
• a fan page
• hockeydb.com
• yahoo sports
• cbs sports
• roto times
• euro hockey

Those are just the top ten webpages from a quick google search. A quick look at the next ten on a google search also makes it clear that the diacritic form of the article spelling is rare in English, if at all. Not only do reputable websites not include diacritics, but English newspapers, such as the Vancouver Province also omit them. It is very clear that the current article title is wrong and must be moved. Masterhatch 18:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What this is and is not

This is not a survey encompassing all of wikipeida. This is not a survey encompassing all of hockey wikipedia. The outcome of this survey will only affect this article, Marian Gaborik. If you are interested in discussing whether or not wikipedia should use diacritics as a whole in article titles, then go here Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics). This survey is only regarding whether this article title should be Marián Gáborík or Marian Gaborik. Masterhatch 00:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Before you vote

Before you vote, ask yourself a few simple questions.

• Are the current wikipedia policies relevant here? If so, are they acceptable policies?
• Are the current wikipedia guidelines relevant here? If so, are they acceptable guidelines?
• What is the most common form of this article title in English? This policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions is clear that the most common English form be used for the title of an article.
• What is the most easily recognisable title to English speakers? Is it Selanne or Selänne? Again, according to that same policy, the most recognisable form to English speakers must be used for the title.
• Which is easier to link to the article, Marián Gáborík or Marian Gaborik? Consider that most people don't have diacritics on their keboards, so linking using diacritics won't be "...easy and second nature."
• A quote from that very naming policy: "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." So, again, ask yourself, which is the more common spelling in English, Marián Gáborík or Marian Gaborik? To me, at least, that policy suggests that the English spelling be the title with the native spelling occuring in the first line of the first paragraph.

Before you vote, remove any personal point of view you may have on the matter. Vote keeping wikipedia policies and guidelines in mind. If you have a problem with certain policies and guidelines, there are talk pages to visit and voice your opinion. Masterhatch 00:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

• Support Masterhatch 18:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support -- Skudrafan1 18:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support BoojiBoy 18:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support ccwaters 19:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support. It's clear that the majority of external profiles spell his name without the diacritics, and the Wikipedia article title should accordingly reflect "most common usage." --Elonka 19:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support -- JamesTeterenko 19:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support -- Having diacritics in the titles influences the spellings in the article bodies, and the diacritics inhibit the use of text search tools such as a browser's Find In Text function for those who can't easily type such characters. Aottley 20:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. English-language encyclopedias do use diacritics. If I look up Antonín Dvořák in Grove Music Online, his article is titled "Dvořák, Antonín (Leopold)". If I look up Dag Hammarskjöld in the Encyclopedia Britannica (online), the article is titled "Hammarskjöld, Dag". There is no reason for Wikipedia to be sloppy about this, and no reason to apply different standards for hockey players. u p p l a n d 21:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support --Krm500 23:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support. The "correct" spelling can be in the article, but should not be the title. --Dhartung | Talk 07:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support While the analogy of putting Russian player names in Cyrillic may seem nonsensical, the principle is effectively the same. Doogie2K (talk) 22:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose -- seems less informative to leave the diacritics out. Stefán Ingi 12:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
• Note that some English publications do use the diacritics [2] [3] and Wikipedia often uses diacritics even when newspapers frequently leave them out (see Lech Wałęsa). Also note that the diacritics guideline quoted above is just a proposal. That said it does seem much more common to omit the diacritics for this name and since it's done in all four instances of the name's occurrence on Google Books I think that leaving them out on Wikipedia can be defended. It's not a big deal either way. Haukur 11:42, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, the correct spelling does not have any software problems that I can see. —Nightstallion (?) 13:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Do you have an international keyboard or the standard North American one? Also, are you aware of the distinction between transliteration and ignorant misspelling? Doogie2K (talk) 23:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment—I don't think it's possible to transliterate from the Latin alphabet to the Latin alphabet, is it? Ardric47 03:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment: You can transliterate between variations which lack certain characters. Given the ongoing contention that these diacriticized characters are, in fact, distinct, I think the analogy of transliteration is perfectly valid. Doogie2K (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment the contention of the pro-diacritic people here is that ę is a different letter than e. If that is true, then English doesn't have an ę, and thus it should be transliterated. BoojiBoy 17:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
          • Comment Which is exactly what I've been saying. Thanks for the backup. Doogie2K (talk) 17:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support - the first line of the article (also: _____) is the only place I'd like to see them. scsgoal31 15:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose—In the 21st century, most personal names have standard, correct spellings. "Marián Gáborík" is his actual name, and "Marian Gaborik" is not. Ardric47 03:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Wow. Talk about your non sequiturs. So they didn't spell things correctly ten years ago? Funny, I just thought we transliterated. You know, like Sergei Samsonov from Сергей Самсонов. Doogie2K (talk) 17:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Man, I said I wouldn't wade into this again. Glancing at Encarta, Jagr doesn't have a single diacritic mark in the article. Antonin D. does. This is because IN ENGLISH (and I hate to use bold here, but I need to identify the reasoning), the most common form of Jagr's name is J-A-G-R. The most common form of Antonín Dvořák's name is Antonín Dvořák. Applying WP:NAME, which is a WP:POLICY, we have Use English words - Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form. This, to me, is the crux of the matter. The POLICY as listed states "Use English unless the native form is more common," thus Dvorak, Zurich, and Dag Hammarskjöld are all in their native spellings. They're most commonly used in their native spellings. Hockey players, however...are transliterated. Many more people are, too. Accuracy is one thing. Rampant nationalism is another.  RasputinAXP  c 04:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
  • See also Уильям Шекспир and Virginia Woolfová. I don't think anyone would argue for the need to spell them "correctly." Doogie2K (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. See Talk:Teemu Selänne; I don't feel like repeating the same arguments here. Duja 20:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support DMighton 17:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose As long as there are the appropriate redirects, articles should stay at the one canonical spelling that remains immutable under changes in the writer's knowledge of the language concerned, the transliteration system employed or the ASCII coding used - for consistency, if little else. Aquilina 22:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

excellent point Aottley. Masterhatch 22:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

comment Uppland, it is really nice that you pointed to other unrelated wikipedia articles and external links that use diacritics, but it would be great if you pointed out where English uses Marian Gaborik's name with diacritics? Because isn't that what this is all about? Masterhatch 23:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Have we considered using redirects? DMighton 13:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment How is it "less informative"? What's wrong with putting the diacriticized (?) version of the name in brackets beside the first instance of the name in the title? (e.g. "Marian Gaborik (sk: Marián Gáborík) is a...")

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.