Talk:Mardi Gras

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[edit] Change Entry Name From Mardi Gras To Pre-Lenten Celebrations?

Since Mardi Gras is just one of many pre-Lenten celebrations, perhaps the article name should be more general and then each type of pre-Lenten festival can be discussed. They can all still have their own pages but this articles seems to be the main one for all pre-Lenten celebrations.

It just seems that Mardi Gras is without much religous connotation in the United States. So it happens to be the day before the start of Lent, so what. Mardi Gras in the New Orleans sense has no reference point in our society with any church organization or is out of touch with it's religous roots.


The fact that Mardi Gras as celebrated in contemporary New Orleans, is not overtly religious does not negate the fact that it is a pre-Lenten celebration. This is an encyclopedia and an encyclopedias raison d'etre is to explain a thing including its history or background. The background of Mardi Gras and Carnival and Carnivale, etc. is that they are all celebrations in preparation for Lent. Even in modern day New Orleans the streets of the French Quarter are cleared at midnight because at midnight it is Ash Wednesday. I'm not saying the Mardi Gras article should be eliminated but perhaps it could be made a sub-page of a main article on pre-Lenten festivals.

Also, the title of the article is "Mardi Gras" but it discusses celebrations that aren't Mardi Gras. Thus, the scope of the article is already general and yet the title refers only to one specific festival. If the article is about Mardi Gras then perhaps we should remove the discussion of Carnival, Carnivale, etc. Or, in the alternative, change the title to "Pre-Lenten Celebrations."


Shrove Tuesday, a common and beloved title in New England, has much import in getting ready for a Holy Lent. There is the inclination to have Dixie Land Music, or other types of social dances with the serving of traditional flapjack style pancake with Sausge, Maple Syrup and all sorts of fruit salads, deserts and other breakfast type foods. The Crepe style pancake is much more closely associated with the English or even German celebration of the day before Lent. In New England and other parts of the North East(OH,NY,PA,etc.) many churches and communities gather for celebrations, sometimes just the "Pot-Luck" or "Dish-to-Pass" Suppers, to get all the rich foods out of the house before Lent. Some churches and community groups in New England (often consiting of Northern European descendants) host a "Ham and Bean" Supper in the days before Lent. The contrast between the Shrove Tuesday festivities and the somber Ash Wednesday Services is striking and spiritual both for those who believe and those who are simply curious. This thought leads me to believe that the very term Mardi Gras may mean very different things to different people.

So merging Mardi Gras with all Pre-Lenten Celebrations seems inappropriate. The links within the body of the article on Mardi Gras or Shrove Tuesday is more than sufficient. Diggledafath,14:55,20 Feb. 2007

[edit] Cut sentences

I (Infrogmation)cut out the below two sentences, as they disagree with all the sources I am familiar with.

"in fact the first Mardi Gras was celebrated there on February 27, 1827" "The first parade to have floats occured on February 24, 1868 at the New Orleans' Mardi Gras."

-- Infrogmation 17:07, 5 Mar 2003

[edit] Article for New Orleans

As we get more material in the article, perhaps the information for the New Orleans celebration might be spun off into a seperate article, perhaps entitled something like "Mardi Gras, New Orleans"? -- Infrogmation 20:24, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)


I've been working on a "New Orleans Mardi Gras" article the current draft of which is at present in my user space at User:Infrogmation/New Orleans Mardi Gras. However others are very welcome to add/edit/comment before the move to main article space. Carnivalistically, -- Infrogmation 20:49, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I just moved it into article space at New Orleans Mardi Gras. -- Infrogmation 13:51, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Show me your...

wow, that's a long article without a single mention of boobies and beads. :O

They are mentioned in New Orleans Mardi Gras, if you must know.

[edit] Pensacola

Under Pensacola, the article states, "Pensacola, Florida is home to the third largest Mardi Gras Celebration in the United States." However, under St. Louis, it states, "The largest Mardi Gras celebration in the United States outside of New Orleans and Mobile is in the Soulard area of St. Louis, Missouri." I thought I'd raise this issue. I didn't change anything because I haven't found any resources that tell me which is true.

[edit] Translation of "Mardi Gras"

Just a note for anyone who might consider adding alternative translations of "Fat Tuesday": for those not familiar with the US "Mardi Gras", the usual translation in the States is "Fat Tuesday" and that is also an alternative name for the festival. I've ventured the opinion that the "gras" could actually be better translated literally as "greasy" or "fatty", but this seems to be a matter of disagreement. My idea is that "gras", which can mean "fatty" (as in "cheveux gras" seen on bottles of shampoo for greasy hair), refers to the butter and lard people ate on that day, before giving it up, thus "fatty Tuesday". However, other people believe that "gras", which can mean "overweight", refers to the weight people put on eating that food, thus "overweight Tuesday". To me this seems only a matter of opinion, but as the name "Fat Tuesday" is so common, I'm being told my opinion, although a few others share it, is irrelevant and unhelpful and should not be added to the page. As I don't know if I'm right and it's just an alternative idea, I'm removing it, but I thought I'd write a note here in case anyone else had the same idea. Saintswithin 10:16, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Citing Sources

I've skimmed the Wikipedia guidelines for citing references sources, but am uncertain as to how to go about citing references or sources for the information I've added under New Orleans, since everthing I've written is a result of being born here and attending Mardi Gras for many years. Any ideas how to cite sources? Comments

Those guide lines are good ideas when editing artices by filling out details gained from particular sources. As the most recent edits to this article seem in the line of general observations that can be confirmed by anyone attending the parades and are not likely to be controvercial, I wouldn't worry about it in this case. Thanks! Cheers, -- Infrogmation 22:47, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Orleans pronunciation of 'Carnival'

I took the liberty of removing the reference to a New Orleans pronunciation of the word "Carnival," to wit, "car-nee-VAHL ... in New Orleans, Louisiana, because of its French heritage." In 33 years living in New Orleans, I never once heard that. If anything, we could include a yat pronunciation, "CAW-nuh-vul." -- Muffuletta 00:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] French Only??

Is it really accurate to imply that only french settlers celebrated mardi gras? surely the tradition existed among other Catholic settlers of different ethnicities (albeit under different names).

Disagree. As far as I know, it was really the French who settled in New Orleans who brought Mardi Gras with them. I will eventually cite as my reference a video made by Arthur Hardy (considered by many the ultimate authority on New Orleans Mardi Gras) which traces the French arriving in New Orleans and their first attempts at re-creating Mardi Gras in the New World. rich 21:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edited and popped off SLO Mardi Gras page

The previous entry about the Mardi Gras controversy in San Luis Obispo was NPOV (noting that the riot was "caused" by police brutality, but not the city's concerns over drunkenness, vandalism, injuries, etc.). The more I tried to summarize it the more obvious that an unique article, covering the entire timeline, would be more appropriate and objective. Noirdame 00:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 Edit/Revert War

Over the last few days, I have been involved in a continous edit war with an Anon user. The gist of the debate is if Mobile, Alabama has the oldest celebrating Mardi Gras in the US and the second largest, or if Lafayette, Louisiana does. Personally, I've always heard that Mobile was the one, and seen this cited by numerous sources. The Anon user, who hasn't given any cites (despite several calls early on to do so) claims that Lafeyette does. If anybody else could attempt to check things indepenently, it would be helpfull. Thank you. Donovan Ravenhull 11:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Per the Wikipedia entry for Lafayette, Louisiana, this city was founded in 1821. Mobile, Alabama, on the other hand, was founded in 1702, and is said to have celebrated its first Mardi Gras in February 1703. Rlm0710 20:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US Mardi Gras Cities

There have been a series of anon editors making conflicting claims as to repective sizes of celebrations in Mobile, Lafayette, Houma, and Galveston. I suspect some of this may be civic boosterism. Please give exact figures and sources to support claims made as to respective sizes. I suggest that any such claims offered without supporting evidence simply be reverted or edited to change from superlative adjectives to simple NPOV statement that celebrations take place there. -- Infrogmation 18:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Just reduce to the NPOV version; pretty much any attendence figures would be published by the respective municipality and would be suspect. AUTiger ʃ talk/work 06:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
To be honest, I wish I could find some independent verification on relative sizes, though this year is a bit of an oddity in that area due to post-Katrina issues. Also, it is widely held in this area that Mobile is the birthplace of Carnival in North America, but I must admit that as a Mobilian, I have some prejeduces. Donovan Ravenhull 11:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I posted about the Mardi Gras in San Diego in Hillcrest that has been deleted... any idea why? There are two celebrations in San Diego. One in the Gaslamp and one in Hillcrest -both have corporate sponsors and both are very large - the Hillcrest one is in the gay district. This is the 6th year its been held. It is the third largest event of the year in Hillcrest (Pride followed by City Fest then Mardi Gras). Did I do something wrong?

[edit] copyvio

was copied from here www.mardigrasdigest.com/html/mardi_gras_history__timeline_mobile.htm


Mardi Gras is also celebrated in all of the towns in between New Orleans and Biloxi, such as Waveland, Bay St Louis, Pass Christian, Long Beach, and Gulfport, MS. Pass Christian has one of the largest and most popular day parades on the coast, always held the Sunday before Mardi Gras (although it hasn't returned to its pre-Katrina size yet).

[edit] Largest

This "largest celebration" thing is strange - the part about Mobile says it had the largest with 240,000 people, but the St. Louis part says they regularly have 600,000 people. I think most of these comments should be changed to "one of the largest". --Awiseman 20:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll leave it to others but Carnaval in Trinidad is reputedly the second largest in the hemisphere after Rio and predates Mardi Gras in N.O. which it not only shares an incredible amount of similarities but a common history/cross pollination of ideas.

[edit] George Street Mardi Gras

Last night I added in about the Mardi Gras celebration that occurs in St. John's in October (it was last night, in fact), but it was removed. I vote that the St. John's version be included, because it IS named Mardi Gras after the traditional festival, and has the same idea in spirit (costumes), but is held around Hallowe'en. --ZeromaruTC 19:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Mardi Gras is not about costumes but rather, a celebration before Lent. The Canadian info would be better at Halloween, as it is in October and concerned with costumes. Cheers. L0b0t 20:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More images maybe?

Could we perhaps have some more pics of carnival around the world, one for each posted example maybe? Would that put too much strain on older computers and slower connections? L0b0t 21:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Sydney Mardi Gras

I removed the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras from the list of Mardi Gras celebrations. This move is not motivated by homophobia but by the need for consistency. The article is about Mardi Gras celebrations held on Fat Tuesday as part of or rooted in Catholic lent observances. The Sydney "Mardi Gras" only uses the name but is an entirely different type of event unrelated culturally to the other festivals and which also takes place at a completely different time of year and not on Fat Tuesday. I placed an internal link to the Sydney festival in the see-also section at the bottom of the article.--Dreko 12:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Is this page being hijacked?

I notice when I read the page that the words "la la la" have been inserted in the first paragraph, and that a lot of the small town Mardi Gras events have an overly promotional tone (LaFayette, the coolest place on Earth? Yeah, right!). Yet when I open the "edit" window, these things aren't there - and refreshing the article window will show that they are still in the article. Is someone hijacking this article? Or is there something going on about Wikipedia that I don't know about?

[edit] Bam in NO

Did Bam visit during Mardi Gras? If so, that should be added in, if not, this line should be removed. "Bam Margera and his friends visit New Orleans in a Season 2 episode of Viva La Bam." DeMyztikX 22:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't belong in a general overview article of Mardi Gras in any case. -- Infrogmation 05:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mobile

Its great that some people have been interested in adding more about Mobile Mardi Gras. Might I suggest starting an article on that subject ("Mardi Gras in Mobile" or a similar title) that could go into more detail? However, please be careful to state verifiable facts, rather than slogans or boosterism. Calling Mobile "the Mother of Mardi Gras" seems to fly in the face of the fact that Mardi Gras was celebrated for hundreds of years in Europe before it was first brought to the New World. The current claim that " longest tradition of observing Mardi Gras in the Western Hemisphere" seems dubious as well, given the traditions in such places as Cuba, Mexico, Panama, Haiti, etc that were settled earlier than Mobile-- if you wish to make such a claim, have supporting references and comparative dates of the starts celebrations elsewhere. -- Infrogmation 05:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's Wrong?

Yeah... I noticed that under the dates subtitle, there is something talking about "Coach Leo" and uses bad language. I tried to edit it out, but it does not appear in the editing box. What's up?

Edit: Never mind, I think it's gone.

Still there.

Try reloading the page. -- Infrogmation 14:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protected

Due to the slew of anon vandalism, I've semi-protected the article for a week. -- Infrogmation 14:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. That was quite a wave of nonsense. L0b0t 14:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change Salvador,Bahia to Salvador da Bahia under Locations

{{Editprotected}} Salvador,Bahia doesn't link to the right place, and having the comma in there is just plain confusing.

Done I've fixed the link so now it points to and links to Salvador, Bahia. However, I've left the comma, because there are a number of places (including a number which are arguably more famous) that share the same or a very similar name - see Salvador. Thanks for reporting the redlink mistake.Changed it to Salvador da Bahia, with the link pointing to Salvador, Bahia (ie. Salvador da Bahia). Cheers, Daniel.Bryant 10:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Shrove Tuesday?

Look at the opening sentence of these two articles:

Shrove Tuesday is the term used in the English-speaking countries of the United Kingdom[1], Ireland[2], and Australia[3] to refer to the day after Collop Monday and before Ash Wednesday (the liturgical season of Lent begins on Ash Wednesday).
Mardi Gras (French for "Fat Tuesday") is the day before Ash Wednesday, and is also called "Shrove Tuesday" or "Pancake Day".

There's something very wrong about having two articles about exactly the same day, with similar traditions. I acknowledge that the traditions associated with the term "mardi gras" are somewhat different to those of "Shrove Tuesday", but perhaps the articles could be divided better? Why, for example, does this sentence appear at mardi gras — "In Slovenia is called Kurentovanje. Its from word Kurent and its a name of the mask, made of sheep skin, richly decorated and they make noise with bells attached on hips. Its also traditional to eat doughnuts." — and not in the "Other cultures that eat a particular food on the day before Ash Wednesday" section of Shrove Tuesday? Anyone have any suggestions? Stevage 11:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

No merging, absolutely not; by no manner of means; leave well alone. The two days mark the same point in the Christian liturgical calendar, so it's not surprising that there should be two (and more) similar feastdays in different cultures. But Shrove Tuesday (Pancake Day) is a very different beast from Mardi Gras. Merging these two would be the greatest folly, a poking of the finger of curiosity into the pie of impertinence. Perhaps a great distinction between the two is called for, but merging? I say thee nay!!! (Not sure why I'm talking like the Burton translation of the Arabian Nights today. Must be tired. Forgive.) Garrick92 12:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
If you're talking about two different *traditions*, then sure, two separate articles. But then where would you put stuff that is neither, like the Slovenian example. Is the distinction between mardi gras and shrove tuesday really an international thing? Or is it just that mardi gras exists in France and the US (bizarre to say that...) while Shrove Tuesday is elsewhere? If so, then shouldn't those be two sections on the one page? Do Shrove Tuesday and Mardi Gras both exist in the US? Stevage 13:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Another vote no. Merging "Pancake Day" with "Shrove Tuesday" is already debatable. To merge with "Mardi Gras" as well is ridiculous. Nick 12:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I oppose a merge. They are distinctly different celebrations and merging these articles would bloat the resulting article unneccesarily unless information is lost in the process. - 131.211.210.20 13:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
That anon comment was mine. - Mgm|(talk) 13:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, Mardi Gras isn't the same as Pancake Day because as far as I can tell Mardi Gras doesn't have any pancake related traditions. - Mgm|(talk) 13:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I totally oppose the merge. Shrove tuesday and mardi gras are totally different animals. They not even the same sort of animal. They dont even come from the same planets. Itd be like merging Keith Chegwin and George Bush. Bobo the clown and Santa. A large tiger and a small puppy. Its just wrong. 82.32.184.26 15:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

If they are so different, why are the introductions so similar? Something in the intros has to make it absolutely clear why they are different. And no one has yet explained it. Should mardi gras start something like "Mardi gras is a celebration that takes place on Shrove Tuesday"? There's also something very weird about mardi gras not even referring to the French origins of the name. What does the 'fat' refer to? Surely it's the same origin as the pancakes, which were made to use up leftover butter/fat? Stevage 00:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I also oppose a merge. Each article should have a link to the other for reference, but (in this part of UK at least) there's no connection between the two. --Smalljim 18:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Merging may not be the right solution, but some serious reorganization is definitely needed. I propose: 1) An umbrella article at a to-be-determined location discussing the Christian holiday that comes before Ash Wednesday in a culture-neutral way, just looking at the history and such without going into the details of what happens in New Orleans or any other specific place. 2) More specific articles, linked from the umbrella article, about different festivals in different places/cultures, e.g. Mardi Gras in NO, Shrove Tuesday in England and some other places, Fastnacht/Fasching in Germany/Switzerland, and so on. Comments? Chl 18:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds pretty good. Any idea what to call it? I thought "Shrove Tuesday" was as neutral as "Ash Wednesday" but obviously not? Stevage 13:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging Pancake Tuesday and Mardi Gras

Should not be merged. Two different celebrations on the same day. Like the 'Melbourne Cup' and Yarra Glen Races on 'Cup Day'. Same day, different events.

  • The Mardi Gras article needs cutting. All those international sections talk about Carnival instead of the final day (Mardi Gras). The article should focus on the topic at hand. - 131.211.210.20 13:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Mardi Gras is a day. Carnival is a season. rich 21:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slovenia Section.

It needs to be worked through. I don't feel established with the subject enough to edit it to full understandability, but if someone else has time/the ability to do so, it is necessary. Valencerian 04:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Point du Mardi Gras French Translation

The original French name was "Pointe du Mardi Gras" (which is pointed out in the articles Notes for reference no.1) with an 'e' not "Point du Mardi Gras" and I suggest that the translation is "Point of Fat Tuesday" or "Fat Tuedday Point" not simply "Mardi Gras Point" as this only translates one word and not the entire name.

I'd just like some opinions before editing anything. David PJ Webster 19:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I speak French. I agree on the 'pointe' vs 'point' (for non-French speakers, 'pointe' means 'tip', or 'point' like a headland - something that juts out, whereas 'point' means dot, spot, speck...). However, 'mardi gras point' seems like a better translation to me than your proposals. In the article, we've already established how 'mardi gras' is translated literally. And since it was named after the celebration, and not literally a random Tuesday that happened to be fat...I don't see what would be gained. Stevage 00:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
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