Image talk:Map-of-human-migrations.jpg
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this seems to be a good idea not executed very well - seems unnecessarily complicated. Saccerzd 16:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I find this hard to follow. Specifically, the rout to Australia appears problematic. Why is it a broken line? What does the comment "Asian: A, B, C, D, E, F, G (note: M is composed of C, D, E, and G)" imply - since the advent of indigenous Australians predates C, D, and G; Furthermore there appears to be no "E"; Indeed, my understanding was that eh DNA evidence did not link Australian aboriginals to any Asian sample, but only to Africa. Banno 21:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
- the mitomap does give their migration along South Asia, but it is not very clear. Maybe Dravidians? I do not think the "M" marker belongs to the Australian arrow. We'll need to look at the data underlying this map to be sure. Baad 07:19, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- The problem is that no clades of mtDNA macro-haplogroup M are native to Australia. MtDNA haplogroup Q, which is derived from macro-haplogroup M, is common among Papuan and Melanesian peoples, but it is completely absent from populations of Australian aborigines. There is some evidence for a very small amount of Austronesian or Chinese admixture in certain aboriginal Australian populations (c.f. presence of Y-DNA Haplogroup O3a5-M134 in 1%~3% of aborigines in northwestern Australia), but any such contact appears to have been limited to immigrating males, because all Australian aboriginal mtDNA is derived from the root of macro-haplogroup N. MtDNA haplogroup M and its derivatives are common among South Asians, Andaman Islanders, Southeast Asians, East Asians, Siberians, Uralians, and indigenous peoples of the Americas. Its subclade M1 is also found among East Africans, peoples of the Caucasus, and Mediterranean Europeans. The greatest diversity of macro-haplogroup M derivatives is found among populations of South Asia, which suggests that the lineage probably evolved or at least rose to dominance within South Asia, with some early offshoots departing to colonize East Asia and eventually the Americas. I believe mtDNA haplogroup Q is the only derivative of macro-haplogroup M that has been found among any population of Sahul, and even there it is limited to Papuan and Melanesian populations. -Ebizur
"X" would be the Eskimo/Inuit. I am not sure if they are commonly counted as "Native American"; and their arrow seems to make a stop at Iceland, but I do not believe Iceland was ever settled prior to the Middle Ages. Baad 07:19, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Why is this image double licensed? I thought Creative Commons and GFDL were incompatible. —ACupOfCoffee 19:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- Well if they were compatible, there wouldn't be much point in using them both. :p ¦ Reisio 19:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
-Humans didn't originally enter Europe from Turkey. They first settled somewhere south of Kazakhstan. From there, they spread to East, West and North. That helps explain why it took longer to get to Europe than to Australia. Ancestors of Aborigines took a different route. From AFrica they went to India, then to Australia, traveling through the coast. Because of the Ice Age, the sea levels were lower, and that is why there so little archeological evidence of that journey to be found. That theory is backed up mostly by genetic analysis of isolated populations in India, Indonesia and Australia. Sources: The Journey of Man, by Spencer Wells and The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond. Also, Baad is right, Iceland wasn't colonized before 870, according to Jared Diamond's "Collapse; how societies choose to fail or succeed" - by AlexisPetriMCosta
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[edit] Switch labels
the L1 and L2 labels should be switched: L1 people (Capoids) are actually in South Africa, and L2 people in West Africa. The arrows could also be changed to make L1 diverge first (120 kya) and L2/L3 later (80 kya) dab (ᛏ) 07:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ice sheet
The ice sheet/tundra marker is absolutely mad. How come Scotland can be free of Ice and Italy not. Actually (with some mountainous exceptions) the ice sheet was basically something of Northern Europe: northern and central British Islands, Scandinavia and Baltic region. Italy or Greece were never frozen!!!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sugaar (talk • contribs) 08:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Orientation
{{ifc}} Could this be rotated so that at least Africa and Eurasia had north pointing up? It's rather disorienting to see everything from this perspective. -- Beland 20:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
- Disagree: North is in the center. The perspective is just perfect to show human migrations. That north is on top in most maps is just a convention. Open your mind. --Sugaar 16:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Legend
Great image, but a poor legend. Could the legend be included in the image for consistency? Spiff 22:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- That would make it less portable to other language Wikipedias. ¦ Reisio 07:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
1] '"X" would be the Eskimo/Inuit. I am not sure if they are commonly counted as "Native American"; and their arrow seems to make a stop at Iceland, but I do not believe Iceland was ever settled prior to the Middle Ages.'
Why would you say X is Eskimo/Inuit? It is obviously Anglo-Saxons (European) that came via Iceland.
2] According to the map interpretation, all people of the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent are Asian (M). I am pretty sure that both these populations are of European descent.
- X is a small haplogroup found specially among Eastern Europeans and Native Americans. In my opinion there's little mistery: it's something proto-Amerindians picked up early in their formation before "jumping" to America, probably in Central Asia (along with Haplogroup Q (Y-DNA)). But, as it is particularly strong among natives of NE North-America, it gives room for speculation, you know: dubious megaliths, Kennewick man, Solutrean... who knows? Iceland does seem to have been desert before Irish monks (arguably) and Norwegians arrived in the Middle Ages.
- South Asia is strongly M (c. 60% in India, something less in Pakistan). Western Asia has little M but enough to justify the coastal migration theory, via southern Arabia, for this super-haplogroup. M is also present in East Africa (M1), in what is probably a back-migration.
- What is rather wrong is the extension of the ice cap in Asia: it was much smaller, with huge lakes. I had a hard time understanding that but it seems that in the Ice Age Siberia was not much colder than it is now, what explains how people could migrate through it.
- It's also horribly wrong in Europe: most Europe was free from Ice. Only Scandinavia, most of Britain, the northern coasts of Germany and, of course, most of Russia and the high mountain areas were iced. It's absurd that half Italy and even Turkey appear as glacial when they were not. Most people then lived (probably) in Southern France and areas of Northern Spain but other groups were in more northern regions like Rhin-Danub and Ukraine. --Sugaar 16:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Proposal for deletion
This image has so many serious inaccuracies that I believe we should place it as a candidate for deletion. I can immediately see two fatal problems. First, Australian aborigines do not possess any mtDNA haplogroups derived from macro-haplogroup M; all specifically Australian mtDNA is derived from macro-haplogroup N. Second, the derivative of haplogroup X that is found among some Native Americans is not closely related to the derivative of haplogroup X that is found among some Eurasian populations; thus, Native American haplogroup X cannot represent recent or historical admixture from Eurasia, and it is rather a minor indigenous Native American haplogroup. Native American "X" is just as Native American as Eurasian "X" is Eurasian, and there is no reason to postulate a separate migration from Iceland or Scandinavia or whatever this map is trying to indicate by showing a dotted line with "X" leading from Europe to northeastern America. Ebizur 16:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Am I the only one that sees a person in this image
well74.226.227.199 01:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- With tentacles instead of legs, and a cape? No. ¦ Reisio 03:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
