Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (national varieties of English)

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[edit] Title

The title for this page is vague. Maurreen 06:55, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please feel free to rename it and to help develop it, jguk 13:15, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Less clear-cut cases

I'm a British English speaker, and I'm having a discussion with an U.S. English speaker about the use of English for articles about things from countries which don't speak English at all. So I'm looking for guidance — other than "leave it alone" — on what to do when a non English-speaking country is involved. In the specific case that started the debate, the country is Italy. I've said this to my correspondent:

[...] Several times you have returned to European car articles and replaced "saloon" with "sedan" and "estate" with "station wagon". Here's the thing: Wikipedia doesn't come in British English and U.S. English versions, and so both languages are in use. And of course there are no rules ;) BUT it's a convention that an article about a product from one country will use the language of that country. Easy with Britain and the United States. When it comes to a non English-speaking country like Italy, for example, I don't think one could prove which version of English is spoken more than the other (unless you have sales figures for all language courses and admissions figures for foreign students at universities!) but since Italy is in the political entity of Europe, and British English is one of the official languages in European government terms, and also since Italian cars in general are likely to sell better in Europe than in the United States (because of transportation costs), then I'd say it's pretty reasonable to go with the European spelling. [...]

I'm not trying to prove myself right or the other guy wrong. I'm hoping to canvass opinion. But I do happen to be an advocate of all dialects and of British English because it's a shame when powerful cultures erode weaker ones and we lose folk-history. I am not attacking the United States, but I believe that the influence of Hollywood, for example, is very strong, and it's worth maintaining the diversity of English-speaking cultures. So if there's a sound reason why a particular version is more relevant, I think it should be used. Of course, Wikipedia isn't a soapbox for such issues, but nevertheless, there's a choice to be made.

So, whadya reckon folks? ;) – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 00:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of comments here, and considering that a consensus has been agreed on the article which made me post here in the first place, I've added an example covering the situation, and based upon that consensus. I hope this doesn't bother anybody; after all, the (present) article states that it is merely reflecting decisions made by Wikipedians, as opposed to being policy.
I've also put in a link to the full policy, which had been absent. – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 19:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] peculiar decision

Except for Wiki, every publisher in the English speaking world uses the conventions of his location. If a UK edition is published, and then a US, all the quotation marks and all the spelling will be changed. Some books with UK conventions are sold in the US, since not all works have a separate US edition. In addition, some works intending to have a "UK flavour" will retain the UK conventions.

But the results of this policy that has apparently been adopted is that all articles about English monarchs should be in UK style, including both the spelling and the use of punctuation. But look at them: US spelling is used, and US style quotation marks. We can't have a Wiki with style considered acceptable by publishers and educators in both countries, because there isn't any. The only way we could achieve that-- eventually--is to have UK and US versions with all the punctuation etc. automatically changed. This can be done--even Microsoft sells us MS Word with both UK and US dictionaries. Our goal ought to be a style which the readers of both countries will accept, which is fairly flexible, as readers do at least occasionally encounter both.

An additional consideration is the ease of writing and editing. I want to write in the way I find easiest--there is quite enough problems without using an alien style. I do not want to go around changing other people's national style, or have them waste time changing mine. Let them look to my errors.

In the meanwhile, the best we can have is consistency. Certainly within an article: anyone editing an article ought to follow the style of the article, and it would be right to change inadvertent difference as one finds them. Possibly within a series of articles, possibly within a type of article, such as pop culture figures specific to one or another country, or those deliberately maintaining or pretending such specificity.

How many among us would feel capable of writing truly idiomatic Scots or Australian English, according to our subject? Certainly the authors born or educated there, but ought they have exclusive rights for such articles? If we are going to carry this to its logical conclusion, perhaps we should consider chronological period. Shall I write about Darwin in Victorian English, Shakespeare in Elizabethan? Should Articles about the 18th Century be written in their Typography, with capitalized Nouns and italic personal Names, as Samuel Johnson's works were printed? We could design a Bot to change them all, for those to whom it might not come naturally. Or I could change them manually--I've read enough from that period that I can do so rapidly.

I too want to preserve distinctive cultures. Educated in Flatbush, should i describe it in Broooklynese? ) DGG 04:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi DGG. You make a very good point about the ease of writing, and the accessibility of Wikipedia. However, there's a theat of some kind of accidental "cultural imperialism" creeping in, because of the relatively high proportion of US editors who would naturally use their language. And that's part of what I'd want to avoid; an erosion of the distinctiveness of the language worldwide. Not the purpose of Wikipedia, of course, but nor is the ignorance of it. The core of the problem for me is that it appears unlikely that there will ever be different editions of Wikipedia for different dialects of English. How often would they automatically synchronise? Presuming it wasn't instantaneous, it'd be likely to mean that vandalism which was swiftly fixed on one edition could be copied over to the other edition before the fix and linger until the next synch, which wouldn't be a disaster but would be unfortunate – and open to deliberate exploitation too.
I don't really buy into the point about the logical conclusion though; few (or no) editors consider Draconian or Shakespearean English to be their native dialect! (Bear in mind that the "Italian example" was a case where there was no immediately obvious national choice; in Shakespearean articles, the immediately obvious national choice is (modern) English English.)
It's been a point of debate over at the Scottish Wikipedian's Noticeboard, however; some people want to put Scots Gaelic translations of proper nouns (which have no such official translation) into articles simply because it's an official language of the country. That discussion, in case its of interest to you, is here. – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 13:20, 18 September 2006 (BST)

[edit] Gray Jay, Eastern Gray Squirrel

The Gray Jay was formally known as the Canada Jay. It's scientific name ends with canadensis. By this measure, should we consider this a Canadian species and rename as Grey Jay?

A similar situation exists with the Eastern Gray Squirrel (carolinensis) considered to be an American species, so 'gray' is used except for part of the article which describes the same species in the UK, where it is called the Grey Squirel. Pendragon39 19:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Usage for non-English speaking countries

Someone added the ex of the Fiat Regata here, and suggested such an article should be in UK English. The question of what dialect is appropriate for non-English speaking European countries is as complicated as the question the appropriate variety of English to be used in articles on Mexico. That some version of UK English is the official language of an institution, the EU, doesn't make it the official language of all EU countries, nor does it make it the version that should be preferred in EU countries. People in Germany, for example, often use American English. (The English version of Der Spiegel, for ex., uses American English.)

This matter needs to be discussed in detail. It is very controversial. For now, the "first dialect used" rule should probably be in force. --Truth About Spelling 23:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree that this is extremely complex, and incidentally agree that much of Germany has used U.S. English ever since the partitioning of Germany after World War II. However, I believe that the usage in Germany is essentially colloquial; people tend to speak English closely related to the version spoken by their teacher. Those in the former British sector who learnt English forty years ago are more likely to have learnt a British variant. (I must admit that I have only "original research" evidence of this, unfortunately.) But my point is that this usage is not nearly so strong a reason to choose a variety as is the official language of the relevant state or group of states.
I disagree with your decision to remove the example of the Fiat; the example was not factually incorrect, and indicated an example, as opposed to a policy. It would perhaps be better to re-word it to emphasise that, like the other examples, it is not an official policy.
We should rapidly put together some form of words to cover the situation which was highlighted by that example. There are reversions and discussions going on in many articles about this, and it's unhelpful to fail to even mention the case in the list here. – Kieran T (talk) 23:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy to have some examples of decisions relevant to articles about things in, or connected to, non-English speaking countries. But these exampes shouldn't point in one direction or another, at least not until the Wikipedia community, not just you and I and a few others, has made a decision on this. And I think mentioning the European Union serves no purpose whatsoever, and shouldn't even be mentioned in an article called Manual of Style (even if it says "... [just a] guide....).

The United Nations often uses some version of Oxford English (though many institutions use American English), but that doesn't mean it's relevant to what dialect of English is used in Wikipedia, perhaps aside from articles about the United Nations.

I'd be perfectly happy with this:

[edit] Fiat Regata

  • Fact profile: The Fiat Regata is an Italian motor car. It is produced in Italy, where there is no national variety of English, by an Italian company. It is sold in many markets, across which many varieties of English are in use.
  • Conclusion: The article was originally written in British English, therefore the article should retain that dialect.


--Truth About Spelling 04:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a good compromise to be going on with, while we work on this; thanks. I'll copy it over, unaltered from what is here. Hopefully more editors will chip in. You're right that it should not be just a very few of us, but that said, I do think this is one of the most appropriate pages for the discussion, and if few people are concerned, then it will fall to us to come up with something more concrete (because we have here an example, not a guide). For the record, three points: firstly I'd like to emphasise that I'm not pro- or anti- any variety of English per se, and merely seek the most appropriate choice for each context.
Secondly, I do believe that the E.U.'s choice for its variety of English is the only verifiable choice for E.U. countries without a native English (e.g. the U.K. and Ireland), and therefore it's highly relevant to the choice in Wikipedia, following precisely the same logic which dictates that U.K. English is better for British articles and U.S. English is better for U.S. articles.
Furthermore, my final point: I've always found the guideline regarding "use the variety used by the first editor" to be a total cop-out — that makes the choice about the editor, rather than about the subject matter, which is at odds with every other guideline I can think of, and serves only to solve edit wars, not to solve the intellectual issue. – Kieran T (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts, and for working together on this.
For the record, my view is that WP spelling guidelines are a complete mess. I disagree that E.U. status is the only verifiable choice, since the very rule itself could easily be altered. That's how WP works. Someone could say membership in the U.N. is what matters, and "U.N. spelling" should be applied to all articles about countries belonging to the U.N. Or "NATO spelling" for countries belonging to NATO. The E.U. is just another trans-country organization. If we allow one trans-country organization to deterimine spelling of all articles about things connected to countries in that organization, why not other trans-country organizations?
I think we need a more reasonable, long-term solution to the problem of spelling and dialect choices on WP. But I'm not sure enough people care, unfortunately.
I am convinced, however, that choosing your suggested E.U. rule will piss off a lot of people. There are tons of Americans and Canadians who have worked on topics such as Nietzsche, Goethe, etc. For someone to come along and invoke the "EU rule" and switch their spellings would be a major irritation. I think that would be bad for our community. --Truth About Spelling 18:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I, for one, would be pissed off. Let's not get into debates about whether Germany is an American subject or a British subject. There's always going to have to be a rule for subjects like philosophy, so whatever we do about things like Germany, it's not going to solve the problem. I think that the EU argument is really splitting hairs. Do British people really care all that much more about Sofia, Bulgaria than Americans? What would Mexicans think of being "assigned" to the United States. I think the rules as they are now make perfect sense. It's a good point about Shakespeare, though. It doesn't seem fair that Shakespeare should belong only to Britons, since most Australians' ancestors were in England then, for example, so their English and English English have evolved from what was the same form then. The only difference is, the British stayed in the same place. Well, I suppose there's something to be said for having a simple, straightforward rule, on the other hand. Joeldl 02:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of "national" varieties of English

I noticed what might be a discrepancy between the main page and this subpage. One of the examples on the subpage says "standard Scottish English" should be used, while the main page says "a nationally predominant form" should be used. Now, I don't disagree with the result — I think Scottish people shouldn't be forced to use English English when it differs from their own — but why the special treatment? Because Scotland is a home nation? Frankly, I don't think we could be too far off with any local form of formal written English that was used, say, in universities and so forth, even if it wasn't identical in some details to what the majority of people did in that country. The reference to a "nationally predominant form" makes it sound like we should be afraid of opening a Pandora's box. What is there to be afraid of? Joeldl 11:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This is topical, in that there's been a discussion recently on Talk:Scotland#Country? about the status of "nation" in the first place... – Kieran T (talk) 00:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Do you know how the preference for a "nationally predominant form" was arrived at? Joeldl 03:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
It was probably arrived at via benign ignorance: that no one thought about the differences within a nation, the complicated definition of "nation," etc., when drafting the rule/guideline. --Truth About Spelling 18:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Would you agree it should be changed so that regional forms of English are equally acceptable, as long as they're acceptable in academic writing in some region? Joeldl 22:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] People who identify as <X>ish are an "<X>ish topic"?

The 'worked examples' on this page seem to be based on the assumption that if someone is born in country <X>, holds that citizenship, and identifies as being of that nationality, they're an "<X>-ish topic". Is this agreed, or at least "stable" on that basis? One could make the case that people can be "international topics", as regards to the nature of their notability, while still being of one nationality as regards their identity, for background/biographical purposes. Alai 02:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. Good question. There is an example of someone whose claim to fame was associated with Britain but then moved to Australia. A good example of a problem, if it weren't for the fact that France and Britain have different languages, would be Jane Birkin. Still, I'd say she's a French topic. I guess a soccer star is associated with the country he played in, while it doesn't matter at all that Sean Connery's James Bond movies were shot in London (I think), what matters is where they were shown. What would you say about George Best. English topic or Northern Irish topic? Joeldl 02:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
On the last two, I'd say it's fairly moot, since it makes little difference as far as the "rules" of writing are concerned; it's the trans-Atlantic stuff that people seem to end up butting heads on, since those are less matters of local variation, as great big bodies of case experience as to Why The Other Is Completely And Systematically Wrong. (Perhaps I should try adding "outwith" to some articles as a subliminal 'standard Scottish English' breaching experiment?) But yes, in principle those are examples of movable or weakened identity. IIRC an issue like this came up on Bernard Lewis (consider that a hypothetical case if I misrecall). What I'm asking, though, is not so much how to judge the primary association of a person, but how that should be weighted against the status quo/first contributor considerations. Would a weak national association override a strong "was already written otherwise"? I suppose that's not at all particular to people, except that people seem to be the cases that are most often the least clear-cut on the first grounds. (I suppose because they necessarily start with such such an association, but aren't unutterably fixed to it.) Alai 03:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that the rule specifying a kind of English should be reserved for strong associations. Joeldl 03:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Encouraging edit wars

The way this guideline is written seems very dangerous to me. It seems to encourage people to change the variety of English used in well-established articles, which is definitely not in line with the Manual of Style. I have added a caveat from the main Manual of Style page to the intro, although the wording on some of the examples should probably be changed as well. Kaldari 19:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

If an article on Dallas, Texas is written in Australian English, changing it to American conventions is an improvement to the encyclopedia. There's no reason that should start an edit war. The changes you're trying to make do not reflect consensus, as far as I can tell. Joeldl 19:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Dallas, Texas should be written in American English. Your interpretation of the Manual of Style's guidelines regarding national varieties of English is extremely simplistic, however, and does not reflect the consensus as to how national varieties of English should be handled. The caveat that I added to this page has been part of the main Manual of Style for at least 2 years so it should not be ignored without good cause, although perhaps adding just that caveat does not present an adequate explanation. Deciding which variety of English should be used in an article and whether or not there is just cause to change an established style is not a black and white issue as you present it. It is a grey area with many variables: is the current style consistant? how long has the current style been used? what percentage of the article's audience is likely to prefer a certain style over the other? how closely is the subject associated with a particular region? If you are going to create a page of examples based on the Manual of Style, please be sure to reiterate the caveats and considerations that are a well-established part of the guidelines. You should also include discussion of these caveats in your examples. Kaldari 00:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The page says this lower down:"Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the usage and spelling of that country." It's true that it says that the rule above it is more important, but this almost certainly applies only to the actual rule itself "Articles should use the same spelling system and grammatical conventions throughout," rather than the comment, "If an article is predominantly written in one type of English, aim to conform to that type rather than provoke conflict by changing to another." If we were always to adhere to this comment under the first rule, there would be no need for such detailed rules as those that follow, and none of the system would make sense. The only logical interpretation seems to be that what is paramount is uniformity, not avoiding changing what other people have written. It just says to avoid having a mix. In fact, the thing about not changing what others have written is mentioned in rule 4 "Stay with established spelling", which is placed below rule 2 on "a strong tie to a specific region/dialect". If everybody accepts these rules instead of challenging their validity, there is no reason there should be an edit war at all. Edit wars are more likely when an established system is challenged. Could you please explain how it makes sense to have rule 4 where it is if the comment under rule 1 is intended to take precedence over rule 2? Joeldl 00:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Your interpretation is mostly correct, but the guidelines are usually interpreted more conservatively than what is presented here. The wording of those rules is intended to strike a balance between consistancy and not causing undue disruption. Notice the following details in the guidelines:
  • If there is a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, use that dialect.
  • Editors should not change the spelling used in an article wholesale from one variant to another, unless there is a compelling reason to do so (which will rarely be the case).
Unless it is fairly obvious that an article is primarily going to be of interest to readers in a certain region (such as Dallas, Texas or London Regional Transport Act 1984), it's hard to make a case that there is a compelling reason to change the language style from what was originally written. Obviously, there is room for interpretation, but given the breadth of subject matter that Wikipedia covers it's simply impossible to impose a hard rule that will make sense for every case. Thus I think this page is actually useful, as it helps to clarify some gray areas. However, I disagree somewhat with its specific interpretation of the guidelines. For example, I don't believe Sean Connery should be written in Scottish English (as he is of just as much interest to people outside of Scotland as he is to Scottish people). Same for Mary Wollstonecraft. My only concern is that this page is encouraging people to change the style more than is practical and sensible. I guarantee that if you tried to change Sean Connery to Scottish English (for exmaple by changing all instances of "small" to "wee") you would be reverted, since I'm sure most of the editors (and readers) or that article are not Scottish. When applying any guidelines or policies in Wikipedia it's important to try to be practical and apply common sense. Otherwise it's very easy to get into conflicts and edit wars. Kaldari 08:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
There has to be a point at which we also consider accessibility. Some versions of English (perhaps including "Scottish English") include words which would be unknown to foreign readers, and might be hard to find in common dictionaries. British and U.S. English (presumably one should not say "American English", since there is also a distinct Canadian variant...) are at least readily available in many online dictionaries. So even when there is a compelling association with a rare variant, it might perhaps be inappropriate on the main English Wikipedia. – Kieran T (talk) 11:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
A few points.
  • Frankly, I doubt whether it would be appropriate to replace small with wee, because I'm sure "small" is perfectly acceptable in Scottish English, and wee means "very small". Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines wee as "very small: diminutive", without any regional usage label. Certainly this example is misleading, because the most important cases of application of this rule will be those where the different varieties of English cannot be easily reconciled. I think we should take advantage of the fact that there is a high degree of convergence between different varieties of English, so that in most cases, no choice will impede understanding.
  • I find the phrase "which will rarely be the case" on the main page very difficult to make sense of, since there are obviously many articles like those listed under Rule 2, so as best I can tell this language should just be discounted and probably removed. It was added on 24 December 2006.
  • Celebrities of international notability often have roles in their own countries that are not well known to people in other countries. For example, Connery's support of the SNP will most likely be written about by Britons, and it may well be that this is a significant aspect of Sean Connery's biography in Britain. If you have material that is likely to be of interest to everyone (e.g. James Bond), and other material that is likely to be written about by people in one country, then in order to maintain uniformity, a choice has to be made, and in this case I think Scotland/Britain is the best choice, rather than the first contributor. In any event, in the vast majority of cases people's notability is attached to one country, and having a clear rule that a person from a country is presumed to be a topic related to that country, in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary (going beyond the absence of a tie to any country, which is the argument about Sean Connery), has a great deal of validity in predicting who will want to read and write an article, and will make everybody's life simpler even in cases where this prediction might be less accurate.
  • In the few cases where, for example, British and U.S. English might diverge to the extent of impeding intelligibility, one should certainly try to apply the rule about using words common to all. In cases like color/colour, I think people should not take it personally if their spelling is changed when they are writing, for example, about a U.S.-related topic.
I disgree with the changes made to the Sean Connery example. I would also like to make a bit of a technical point.
  • The argument, "Most of the editors (and readers) of that page are not Scottish" can lead to bad policy. It will often be the case that a majority of readers and editors will be American. This could systematically lead to a bias for American spelling, etc. The question should be "Are Scots significantly more likely to be interested in this topic than Americans?". That way, Scots could have their "own" topics in similar circumstances to when Americans would have their "own" topics. With this criterion in mind, it doesn't seem unlikely to me that Sean Connery could be a "Scottish topic" in terms of who is interested.
Let's look at another example: "Article on Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings: British English usage and spelling". This is taken from the main page. Surely Kaldari isn't arguing that that Sean Connery has less of a tie to Britain than The Lord of the Rings. Joeldl 17:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, I think this page should consist of actual examples, not theoretical examples that disagree with the actual articles. The Sean Connery article is currently written in standard British English (as best I can tell). If concensus can be built on the Sean Connery Talk page to change it to Scottish English, I would support changing it here as well. Kieran T brings up another good point: there is something of an unwritten convention that all Wikipedia articles are written in either standard American or stanard British English (or something somewhere in between), regardless of the region involved. There are two reasons for this. The first reason is hinted at in Joeldl's defense of the word "small":

1. American and British English are almost universally understood in the English-speaking world (with some exceptions). Most English-speaking countries teach either British or American English in schools, and global media is dominated by the two dialects (BBC, CNN, etc). In the business and financial realm, for example, American English is dominant thoughout the world. In legal affairs, British English is the standard in many places. Most English dialects derive from British English and are heavily influenced by American English, thus they are good defaults when in doubt.

2. Some dialects of English are quite obscure and should probably never be used in Wikipedia except for acticles exclusively of interest to speakers of that dialect. For example, the article on M.I.A. should almost certainly not be written in Sri Lankan English, regardless of her ties to that region (especially given Sri Lankan English's divergent grammar). Most Sri Lankan academics use standard British English and British English is considered more "proper" there as it is in many parts of the world with unique English dialects. I beleive the directive to use whatever dialect the article's subject is tied to should be interpretted more conservatively when less common varieties of English are involved. After all, the goal here is to make content that is accessible to as many people as possible, so ideally we want most of the people who read a given article to be able to understand it without any difficulty. If an article is only going to be read by people in Liberia, by all means go ahead and use Liberian English, but for the article on Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf I would favor American English since that is what Liberian English is based on and most of the people who read that article are not going to understand Liberian English very well. Kaldari 16:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

First I will respond to the argument that some varieties of English are marginal.
1. I would dispute that there is any convention that articles need to be in either British or American English or something in between. I think such a rule would go against the principle that all countries are to be treated equally. I would be vehemently opposed to a rule that said Canadians had to write "postcode" or "zip code" instead of "postal code" in a new article about China. If anything, "zip code" is the most difficult to understand. Kaldari concedes at least that this convention is unwritten, if indeed it exists as claimed. In that case I would argue that nobody has written it down because it would be offensive to those who are neither British nor American, and would not be accepted by them. The English language belongs equally to all those who speak it natively (at least).
2. Americans tend to overestimate the extent to which American expressions are understood in other countries. A Briton who has not had extensive exposure to U.S. media is no more likely to understand "housing project" than an American is to understand "council estate". Even though I am Canadian, it wasn't until I moved to the U.S. that I realized that "the projects" just meant "public housing". The fact that not all dictionaries cover vocabulary from every English-speaking country is either a deficiency of the dictionaries (for example, the Merriam-Webster contains many of the most common Scottish words, and it doesn't even consider wee Scottish), or can be interpreted as follows. Since there are, for example, fewer Australians than there are Americans, users of a British dictionary are more likely to encounter American words than Australian ones. This would in fact be reflected in Wikipedia if the different varieties of English were present roughly in proportion to their populations of speakers. Does that mean that Australian words should be banished because they didn't make it into such or such British dictionary? I don't think Wikipedia should be in the business of ensuring that U.S. and British English are represented beyond what would be expected by letting people write as they wish. I am certain that that way, 65% of what's written will be in American English. Who should complain if 5% is in Australian English?
Unfortunately, "projects" is a particularly poor example because that is slang for "public housing." If I were editing an article, I would suggest that the writer change the word not only because it's slang but also because it has a negative connotation. This brings up a recurring issue. Why should we not try to adopt a writing style that will be broadly understood?. Most dialectical differences come out most strongly in slang and obscenity (formal language changes the slowest). As this example demonstrates, "public housing" was perfectly understandable to both the American and the Canadian. I just think that as editors and writers, we should be focused on making wikipedia understandable to the widest number of readers (if the goal is to inform and to educate). Awadewit 13:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
You may be right to say that "the projects", without further qualification, is used primarily in informal language (though it is almost certainly not slang). But this is not true of "housing project". (You can google it at site:gov.) I would not have been aware previously that "housing projects" referred to public housing. Joeldl 02:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
3. When we refer, for example, to Irish English, what we are talking about in this discussion is the form of English used in Irish academic publications and other formal circumstances in Ireland. Kaldari might say that this is heavily influenced by British English, and therefore we might as well ask Irish people to follow British usage in all respects. That influence may well exist, but if it is not so strong as to make Irish writers write in a way that is identical to the British, it is perhaps because the influence is limited, and because Irish writers do not accept the legitimacy of the British to define for them how they should express themselves, even in situations in which it can be anticipated that foreigners will read what they've written. My defence of the word small is not in the least an argument in favour of a British/U.S. monopoly. I am simply saying that, presumably (though my presumption could be rebutted), the word small is not out of place in a Scottish publication. The words zip code and postcode, by contrast, are completely out of place in a Canadian publication, and could be corrected in a Canada-related article. Similarly, "postal code" should not be corrected in an article about China originally written in Canadian English.
4. The example of Sri Lankan English is misleading. Undoubtedly in formal Sri Lankan writing the grammar of the English used is not markedly divergent from the English used in other countries. This example is complicated by the fact that there are few, if any, native speakers of English in Sri Lanka. It is quite likely for this reason that interference from other languages is common, and it is easier for mistakes to slip into writing there. I use the word "mistake" to mean something which those Sri Lankans most fluent in English would agree was inappropriate in formal writing. I think this is what Kaldari is thinking of. Similarly, only 69,000 Liberians (out of 3 million) use English as their first language. There is another language called "Liberian English", in reality a pidgin English (see the Ethnologue website), spoken by 1.5 million as a trade language (only as a second language), and which is not English. Again, it's doubtful how different from American English the English in academic publications there is, but if a particular form were well established there, I don't think we would have the legitimacy to say it was unacceptable. In any case, I think we should first settle the issue with respect to those countries with large numbers of native speakers (the U.S., the U.K., Canada, Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, and perhaps some Caribbean countries), where there can be no doubt that written English is produced primarily by native speakers.
5. I concede that it is quite possible to read through an entire article without being able to tell whether it's been written in Scottish English or English English. That doesn't mean that if some small differences arise in future edits, priority should be given to English usage. I think the issue of whether Standard Scottish English should be distinguished from Standard British English can be dealt with later, and obscures the questions we need to deal with first.
6. In sum, I think Kaldari is trying to make two contradictory points. One is to say that essentially formal English around the world is very close to either American or English English, and therefore those two forms might as well be given special status in Wikipedia. The other is to make it sound as if the moment people elsewhere start writing in the variety of English used in formal writing in their country, serious intelligibility problems will arise. My response is this. Let's take advantage of the fact that the standard forms are very close, and have a single encyclopedia belonging to all English-speakers, rather than declare that those who write differently than Americans or Britons have less of a claim to the Wikipedia in their own language. Secondly, where differences exist, let's respect them. That means that we should institute rules which do not have the effect of favouring certain varieties over others. The current system accomplishes that.
All of these arguments serve only to rebut Kaldari's claim about special status for American and British English. Leaving aside for the moment the British vs. Scottish problem (to which we should return later), Kaldari does not address my arguments that Sean Connery should be considered a British/Scottish topic. This would mean that the rationale for giving preference to British/Scottish English is not the original state of the article, but the relation to Britain/Scotland. This means that the current version [1] gives the wrong reason. Joeldl 13:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Question: Is there any difference between formal written Scottish English and formal written British English? For that matter, is there really such a thing as formal written any other variety of English besides American and "Commonwealth" English, or are other English dialects limited purely to the spoken and informal realms (other than differences in technical terms such as "postal code" vs "zip code" or "state" vs "province")? Can you give some examples? Maybe we're really arguing over nothing. Kaldari 19:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, to some extent, at least in terms of vocabulary, if not grammar. For example, the word, "outwith" is perfectly valid English, but is referred to in Chambers dictionaries as "chiefly Scots". In English English one would say, "outside of" — so personally I favour outwith for its economy! – Kieran T (talk) 20:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The Canadian Oxford has about 2000 Canadianisms. They are not limited to informal language and/or technical terms. The Merriam-Webster, which is American, has book off for example, and gives this definition: "Canad: to notify an employer that one is not reporting for work (as because of sickness)" Here is another example of what might be considered a grammatical Canadianism: "as well" at the beginning of a sentence. This is found in all styles of writing in Canada. We should note that varieties are also defined "negatively": in a Canada-related article, a word not used in Canada should be avoided (e.g., faucet, candy bar should be tap, chocolate bar. I'm not sure what "chocolate bar" is in Britain.) Joeldl 02:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that it is relatively clear that the main page contemplates more than two national varieties of English. Unless it is anybody's intention to question that any further, I think we should accept that fact as established. I also think we should temporarily ignore the British/Scottish issue (i.e. what qualifies as a national variety), and focus on the US, UK, Canada, Australia, etc. The main question before us is under what circumstances a topic is to be considered related to a particular country (or countries). As I have said previously, I am in favour of what you could call a "bright lines" approach, because of the certainty this will give to editors. Certainty can go either way: either the topic is country-related or it isn't. If it isn't, rules 3 through 5 on the main page are controlling, and no attempt at balancing will be carried out. If it is, perhaps there is still a need to apply rule 3 to some extent if there is considerable international interest in the topic, but there are also cases where rule 3 is not applicable. Most obviously, there is spelling, but also cases like lift/elevator in the body of an article. No balancing with the original version needs to be applied, since rule 2 is controlling. Joeldl 01:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe if you are going to have hard-fast rules, they will need to be very clearly defined. For example, right now there is really no definition of what constitutes "country-related". If someone is born in a country does that automatically make them related to it? If they identify as a certain nationality (regardless of living there) does that constitute relation to a country? If they lived in an area that became a certain country after their lifetime, are they necessarily related to the new country? The guidelines right now are quite vague and open-ended so I don't understand how you can insist on a strict interpretation of them. Also, I'm personally of the opinion that if there is significant international interest in a topic, rule 3 should trump rule 2, especially if we're talking about a dialect of English other than American or Commonwealth. Perhaps both rules need to be rewritten before this page will really be useful. Kaldari 21:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Because things may get a bit messy otherwise, I'm going to number my points.For convenience, let's say we can define three categories: 1. Country-related, of limited interest to others. 2. Country-related, of considerable interest to others. 3. Not country-related. Here are my tentative proposals.
1. a. I think in category 1, there should be a clear preference for that country's English. b. In category 3, I think only rules 3, 4, 5 should matter c. In category 2, I think in all cases where a definite choice has to be made (spelling, no common term, etc.) that should be controlled by Rule 2. In both categories 2 and 3, I would rather avoid applying rule 3 to issues that don't impede understanding, especially spelling issues. As you've probably guessed, I'm thinking of -ize/-ise. I've come to think that in all cases except -ize-country-related ones, we should stick with the first spelling used. I think leaving -ize in Mary Wollstonecraft is fine, since it's a possible spelling, but British people should be able to have -ise, even in category 3 articles, if they got there first.
2. There may be intermediate cases between 1 and 2, but I think we should have rules that make a once-and-for-all determination for categories 2 and 3. This is because rule 3 can be flexible, and that's what changes between categories 1 and 2, but spelling can't, and tends to be an all-or-nothing thing, so categories 2 and 3 should be clearly distinguished.
3. For people, I think that presumptively, they should be associated with their country (if it is English-speaking), unless it can be demonstrated that their notability was particularly associated with another English-speaking country. If the person is not from an English-speaking country, but their notability is associated with an English-speaking country in particular, then they are related to that country. Otherwise they are not country-related, and it's open season.
4. You may well ask what I mean by "their country". I don't know for sure. But I do know that in the vast majority of cases this doesn't pose a problem, so the fact that we may have difficulty defining this doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe the order should be
a. notability (needs to be a clear advantage).
b. countries one identified with during periods of significant notability, if that can be determined;
c. citizenship during periods of notability.
d. residence during periods of notability. (Would need to be a longish period: A German who spent a year in the US wouldn't qualify).
e. throw our hands up in the air and say that the person isn't country-related.
Take Einstein. He would be U.S.-related, by the citizenship rule at least, German/Swiss/U.S. if it hadn't been for the English-language thing. (This turns out to be fair, because a good part of his biography turns out to be U.S.-related, although obviously his notability for physics was international.)
5. I don't think there's any problem considering India, Nigeria, etc. English-speaking. English is an official language there, and I doubt we would have any trouble reading their legislation.
(6.) I don't think there's any problem separating Scotland, Newfoundland, etc. Most differences are likely to be minor. (I put this in parentheses because this is possibly at odds with the main page, and because if you disagree, I think you should just note that and I'd prefer to deal with it later.)
7. Countries that are not English-speaking cannot be considered country-related (France/Britain, Mexico/US, Indonesia/Australia).
8. Subjects that concern a large number of countries, but only one or two English-speaking ones, are country-related. For example, see the EU institutions example on the main page. This makes sense because the British and Irish are subject to EU laws and regulations.
9. Sports are a difficult problem. Probably, if people in Country A spend 20 times as much time thinking about a sport as people in Countries B, C, etc., then the sport should be Country A-related. (E.g., I think baseball should be U.S./Canada-related, and Cricket UK/Aus/NZ/SAfr/Pak/Ind/Carib related). How to measure that, I have no idea. Maybe we should just say that the difference in interest has to be so extreme as to be beyond question, or maybe we could look at the number of words about the sport on a typical sports page in a newspaper. In many cases, there is an official definition of what it means to compete at the highest level in a sport. This is difficult and I get the feeling that this could provoke controversy in close cases, but would be a good thing for cricket, etc., because if somebody starts a page one way where it can be predicted that almost all editors will be from another country in particular, they probably shouldn't have their hands tied.
9'. (Alternative) Declare open season on sports.
10. Works of literature are presumed to be associated with their author unless their notability can be demonstrated to be attached to a country in particular.
Are there any other cases you can think of? What do you think of these rules?

[edit] Presentism

I agree with much that Kaldari has written above. I believe that the policy/guideline should facilitate contributions and not encourage edit wars. If I had seen a policy stating that I had to write the Mary Wollstonecraft or Anna Laetitia Barbauld articles in British English, I would never have written them (they are now both FAs). But I would like to point out the shocking, yes shocking, presentism (as academics like to say) on this page. It is apparently of dire consequence to consider a modern person's dialect but not a historical person's dialect. Those so concerned with language imperialism above are apparently unconcerned about the language rights of those from the past. Their argument logically leads to the conclusion that Chaucer's article should be written in Middle English and that Shakespeare's article should be written in Early Modern English. That is why the primary consideration should be, as others have pointed out, the most familiar forms of the language. Awadewit 11:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not the dialect of the historical person we are considering, but their national affiliation. Nobody is claiming that today's British English is any more a descendant of, for example, 17th century British English, than American English is. What I am saying is that it is appropriate to consider a historical English figure to be an England-related topic, since in the vast majority of cases these people will be of greatest interest to present-day English people. It is important to have a definite rule, since the more definite the rule, the less uncertainty there will be, and therefore the fewer pointless edit wars, not more. In the case of Shakespeare, one might be tempted to make an exception, but a British editor pointed out that he was considered a national icon there, and I accept that view. (The point being that today's British are the legitimate heirs of yesterday's British, not anything to do with Shakespeare's dialect.) As for writing in British English, if you want to write in American English, nobody is saying it's better you not write at all. But if others make changes to your spelling in an England-related article, that is not a reflection on the quality or validity of your writing, it just means that they are applying policies that were developed because they were felt to be the most rational way to deal with conflicting usage over a large number of articles. Given the tendency of editors, in the absence of any rules, to push their own variety of English, it is important to have clear-cut ones. If you start to argue that Harold Wilson and Henry Pelham are Britain-related (since most people interested will be British), but Elizabeth I is not, where do you draw the line? If there has to be a case-by-case evaluation instead of a clear rule applied uniformly, don't you agree that that will increase the number of edit wars rather than decrease them? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joeldl 13:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
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