Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (capital letters)

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters) page.

Some archive talk of interest is at [1].

Contents

[edit] Acronyms

I disagree with the point about 'it is not necessary to capitalize the letters in an expanded acronym to show the source of the acronym:

i.e. incorrect (FOREX - FOReign EXchange)

    correct   (FOREX - foreign exchange)

I think that some acronyms are so contrived and hard to follow that, in these cases, it should happen:

i.e. (made-up example)

MADMAN - MAssive acaDeMic Arsenal Nuclues

Saccerzd 21:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Offering made-up examples doesn't really advance your position at all. Style guides are meant to be practical documents. If the only reason for changing them is to accomodate fictional predicaments, they're no longer as useful.
I agree with the guideline as it's currently stated. Drawing special attention to how the abbreviation was formed insults the readers' intelligence and is not necessary. Reading through the acronym and initialism topic, I've developed the opinion that drawing so much attention to the forming letters is distracting, especially when the the abbreviation is not the actual focus of an article. There are exceptions to every rule, and the wording in the MoS is not so stern as to forbid the occasional straying from the guideline for a particularly hairy abbreviation. It should definitely be avoided, though. So much of it just makes the expansions look weird.
According to Abbreviation, the example in the MoS is a "syllabic abbreviation," not an acronym per se.
--Rob Kennedy 00:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time periods

Such as the Jurassic have capitals. How about the middle ages or Middle Ages? Cold War. Post War? Inter-War years? Victorian era or Victorian Era? Rich Farmbrough 23:01 12 April 2006 (UTC).

How about Hurricane Emily or hurricane Ivan, were they Category 2 or category 2? Rich Farmbrough 12:46 11 May 2006 (UTC).
I'd definitely say "category 2"; for your other questions see "historical periods" below. --Espoo 09:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protocols & Standards

JA: There has been considerable discussion on Talk:Border gateway protocol as to whether the names of things like internet protocols and hardware standards should be capitalized. This has, of course, wide-ranging implications that go far beyond this particular article. We have had some difficulty finding anything in the MoS that is specific and unambiguous enough to resolve the issue. Jon Awbrey 03:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


JA: The Capitalist Conflagration has burst the surly bonds of the border gateway protocol and is now being bandied about at points south of this heading. Jon Awbrey 05:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

See this link for an earlier discussion: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style archive (capitalization)#Capitalization of computer terms --Blainster 07:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nations, nationalities, and ethnicities

Should we add the topic of nations, nationalities, and ethnicities isn't to the project page? Fg2 00:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

Can someone please quote here section 7.16 of the 14th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style? I only have the 15th edition, and neither it nor the Guardian Manual of Style seem to support the capitalization advice given in Wikipedia's style manual. In the 15th edition, chapter 8 is the relevant chapter, particularly sections 8.21, 8.23, 8.25, 8.26, and 8.29. They all call for a "down" style, which I think it more in line with the rest of Wikipedia. --Rob Kennedy 23:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Rob, what is a "down" style? Rich Farmbrough 09:25 6 August 2006 (GMT).
It’s a style that eschews excessive capitalization. It wouldn’t capitalize president unless used as a title in front of the person’s name, as in “Today President Bush signed a bill.” But it would not be capitalized in “Today the president signed a bill” or even “Today the president of the United States signed a bill.” Here are sections 8.21 and 8.22 of the 15th edition:
8.21
Capitalization: the general rule. Civil, military, religious, and professional titles are capitalized when they immediately precede a personal name and are thus used as part of the name (usually replacing the title holder’s first name). Titles are normally lowercased when following a name or used in place of a name (but see 8.22). See 8.25–29 for many examples. For abbreviated forms, see 15.11–18.
President Lincoln; the president Dean Mueller; the dean
General Bradley; the general Governors Edgar and Ryan; the governors
Cardinal Newman; the cardinal
Although both first and second names may be used after a title (e.g., Vice President Dick Cheney), such usage is generally avoided in formal prose. Note also that once a title has been given, it need not be repeated each time a person’s name is mentioned.
Dick Durbin, senator from Illinois; Senator Durbin; Durbin
8.22
Exceptions to the general rule. In formal contexts as opposed to running text, such as a displayed list of donors in the front matter of a book or list of corporate officers in an annual report, titles are usually capitalized even when following a personal name. Exceptions may also be called for in promotional or other contexts for reasons of courtesy or politics.
Maria Martinez, Director of International Sales
A title used alone, in place of a personal name, is capitalized only in such contexts as a toast or a formal introduction, or when used in direct address.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Prime Minister.
I would have done it, Captain, but the ship was sinking.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Wikipedia isn’t in the business of courtesy or politics, so I don’t see much call for exceptions to the general rule. --Rob Kennedy 19:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I should add a quote from section 8.2:
The “down” style. Chicago generally prefers a “down” style—the parsimonious use of capitals. Although proper names are capitalized, many words derived from or associated with proper names (brussels sprouts, board of trustees), as well as the names of significant offices (presidency, papacy), may be lowercased with no loss of clarity or respect.
--Rob Kennedy 19:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm definitely down with that. Rich Farmbrough 14:43 23 August 2006 (GMT).

[edit] Institutions RE: Churches

Regarding institutions such as universities and hospitals the Chicago Manual of Style is clear on the use of capital letters. However, should we extend this to churches, such that we would refer to the Catholic Church, the church, and not the Church? That would seem to be my interpretation, but I do not have the CMS in front of me, so help would be appreciated. -- Bantab 18:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Sections 8.105–106 of the 15th edition appear to call for lowercase church unless it’s part of the “formal name of a denomination … or congregation ….” The Guardian Manual of Style asks for pretty much the same. However, I don’t think we would generally refer to “the Catholic Church” since the sheer length of the Catholic article suggests the term is ambiguous. Capitalization in that article definitely needs some cleanup. --Rob Kennedy 20:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Academic degrees

I think it would be good for Wikipedia to have a stated standard (or a stated lack of standard) on the capitalization of academic degrees. For example, should it be "John Doe earned a bachelor of science degree from Mars University" or "John Doe earned a Bachelor of Science degree from Mars University"?

Looking at the FAQs from the Chicago Manual of Style website, I find the following:

Q. Should one capitalize academic degrees? I am reading a quasi-academic journal and am wondering about the capitalization of three words in the following sentence: “He was hoping to use his Associate of Applied Science degree.”
A. Chicago style is to lowercase the degree (including the field) in running text and whenever it’s used generically. Generic uses (like the one in your sentence) often are introduced by “a” or “the” or “his.” Capitalize the name of a degree when it is displayed on a resume, business card, diploma, alumni directory, or anywhere it looks like a title rather than a description. You can’t go too far wrong with this if you’re consistent within a given document.

Perhaps we should emphasize the final point about consistency. –RHolton≡– 03:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The"

I notice there is no guideline here for the capitalization of the word "The" before a proper noun. In comics-related articles, editors frequently capitalize "The" when referring to characters with the word "the" in their names, such as the Joker, the Riddler, the Hulk, etc. Any suggestion on how to explain this to editors who do this? --Chris Griswold 08:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the only justification for uppercase "The" would be if it is part of a title. So The Joker might be the title of an issue or episode, but "the" is not part of the character's proper name, so should not be capitalized in ordinary use. --Blainster 07:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Chicago says that the "The" can be subsumed onto the text, depending on context and appearance. So for example to avoid "the The Incredible Hulk's shirt was ripped" even to the extent of 'the "Incredible Hulk"'s shirt was ripped' - i.e. moving "the" outside the quotes. Also I would accept lowering the case of "the" when it is inside quotes, with the possible exception of the band "The The".
Rich Farmbrough 14:54 23 August 2006 (GMT).
At the Slot, Bill Walsh addresses the issue of when the is part of a proper noun and when it’s simply a definite article in the surrounding text.[2] Even if the full correct name is The Incredible Hulk, not every instance of that three-word sequence will use a capital T. On the other hand, Chicago (15th ed., §8.180) says the gets lowercased for all periodical titles, so even if you see the titles The New York Times or The Economist at your news stand, Chicago advises that you write the New York Times and the Economist (except at the beginning of a sentence, of course). This advice has the practical advantage that editors no longer need to check whether a publication happens to include the in its name. I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to extend this policy to other names that start with the. --Rob Kennedy 16:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization in Bullets

Sue Anne stated that when doing bullets, it should be utilized like "Rules and regulations" instead of "Rules and Regulations". I wholeheartedly disagree with this, as whenever you bullet things, and bold it, it should be like "Rules and Regulations" instead of "Rules and regulations". This is so because it then makes the bullet and/or topic more attention-grabbing. From my standpoint, capitalization rules needs to be changed so that anything that's bulleted and bolded to describe a sentence/paragraph before it should be capitalized like "Rules and Regulations", and that headers should read like "Rules and Regulations" instead. I really hate to debate on this, but this rule needs to be changed. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 02:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The bullet, indentation, and bold typeface draw enough attention as it is. We needn't bash the reader in the face; this is not a Las Vegas casino. —ptk✰fgs 21:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vesther still disagrees

To me, the reason why I rely on caps is because if there was a section that describes something, then it would not look good to me (i.e. This Paragraph vs. This paragraph). "This header" doesn't look too good when it comes to describing a header, but "This Header" looks a lot better. I really stand for the fact that there will be times when I have to use caps.

About bullets, this is kind of subjective and arbitrary, but I still have a beef with capitalization usage. Same thing applies as with section naming. I tend to be loose if the bullet is just a paragraph, but I tend to get really stiff if there's bolded "things" describing what's contained in a paragraph (i.e. "What's here" vs. "What's Here:").

Overall, I have a real beef with some aspects of capitalization standards, when you start out a section, it should be capitalized with the exception of verbs. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 22:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You are not alone, others have found our style to be unusual. Nevertheless, it is our style and has been from the beginning. We're not likely to change it, as it would mean changing about a million articles. -Will Beback 22:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's the beef I currently have with the capitalization convention, as I do ask that this has to be changed, even though a million articles is going to have to be modified because of this. I wholeheartedly have to stay my course that the capitalization rules are flawed because of what I'm going through right now. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 02:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Just because of what you're going throught? Let's ask what's best for the articles. And I think our articles are better off without superfluous uppercase letters. —ptk✰fgs 03:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Given Sue Anne's harsh criticism, I still prefer "This Paragraph" to describe a header as opposed to "This paragraph". — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 04:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
A) I don't think my criticism was all that harsh.[3].
B) I don't see why it's being brought into this discussion.
C) I agree with what the other editors have said. This is a style choice based on The Chicago Manual of Style and is a better way of doing things and makes things easier to read.
--Sue Anne 05:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Objection to items A and C. For item A, you were acting way too harsh and impolite. For item C, given that you agree with people who favor Chicago style, I'm going to have to seek a WP:3O on this if by all means possible, as the exception to this is when you, for the least, describe headers. The Chicago Manual of Style shouldn't apply to headers. Not to be disruptive, but that is still my beef with WP's MOS. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 22:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Vesther, you are welcome to seek a change in our manual of style. However please follow it while you are pursuing the change. Intentionally formatting articles in defiance of our MOS is disruptive. -Will Beback 09:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I never defy the MOS, neither I do mass-editing unless it's for the benefit of the surfer. In fact, I don't edit articles that I don't know about (as I tend to leave those articles alone for almost all of the time unless I have to correct the coding), but I only edit the articles that I know about (i.e. the games I played all my life, the shows that I tend to like watching, etc.). :P — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 22:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses the same capitalization style throughout. Article titles and section headings both use the “sentence case” style, so only the first word and proper nouns get capitalized, just like a normal sentence. Wikinews uses the same style for its headlines. I see no reason to single out bulletted lists for a different style. Sentence case is easy to implement because it’s the same in all contexts — it requires less effort from editors. I think it’s also better for readers. When they read the text, they can be confident that when they encounter a capitalized word, it’s that way because it’s a proper noun. When you capitalize everything, capitalization no longer carries any weight. Other places are free to use title case, but let Wikipedia stick with sentence case consistently.

This “everything but verbs” style you mention is something totally new to me. Can you refer me to any publication that uses it? --Rob Kennedy 19:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Check out any newspaper article either on print or online. I hope that clears any confusion you might have (i.e. http://www.chicagotribune.com, or http://www.washingtonpost.com). — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 22:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The Washington Post uses title case for its headlines (e.g., “Bush Staunchly Defends U.S. Strategy in Iraq”). The Chicago Tribune uses sentence case (e.g., “Cop kills attacking pit bull”). Neither matches the “everything but verbs” capitalization style you suggested. Could you please provide a specific example from either of those papers that demonstrates the style you’re asking for? --Rob Kennedy 22:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
OK maybe I'm too vague, but here's a good example on when to use caps when it comes to titles and headers. Hope this helps. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 23:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC) P.S. If you insist, then I'll provide more.
Addendum:—check out this link as well. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 23:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Your examples are of title case. Did you really mean to write that a section title “should be capitalized with the exception of verbs”?
There are different opinions concerning which words get capitalized in title case. The one I learned in school capitalized everything but unimportant short words (fewer than four letters). Chicago allows longer words to be lowercase, especially adverbs like through. Sentence case doesn’t give rise to this issue, though. In it, words are capitalized just like they are in regular body text.
So far, your only argument in favor of a different casing style is that it looks better to you, and you even admit that it’s a rather weak reason. You’re going to have to do better than that if you hope to sway Wikipedia away from its current style. (You’re also going to have to demonstrate that you have a clear idea of what you’re asking for, which your Apple.com examples don’t accomplish.) --Rob Kennedy 01:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political adjectives and person-nouns

I suggest that we add the following rule: communist(ic), socialist, liberal, conservative, libertarian, democrat(ic) and republican shall only be capitalized if they refer to a specific political party having the word (or a variant or cognate thereof) in its name. NeonMerlin 00:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] this page title

as the section dictates about headings, why isn't this page title "Manual of style"? --gatoatigrado 23:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The title of this page is not a section heading, so the section-heading rule doesn’t quite apply here. Instead the title is governed by Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words, which starts as follows:

Convention: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun …

(Emphasis added) In the context of this article, Manual of Style is a proper noun refering to the document made up of the collection of related Wikipedia pages. It’s not just any style manual; it’s the manual for Wikipedia, and its title is Manual of Style. The University of Chicago Press and The Guardian happen to have chosen the same title for their respective style manuals, too, and all are capitalized. --Rob Kennedy 05:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Musical genre

I've added a rule over capitalization in musical genres, as I'm changing the capitalization of musical genres a lot lately and I felt it's about time to have a proper guideline over the issue. Michaelas10 (T|C) 14:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] incorrect spelling "Ancient Greece", "Ancient Rome", "Ancient Egypt", etc.

These kinds of spelling errors are very common in WP and this article doesn't seem to provide any guidance. See also Category_talk:Ancient_Greece#incorrect_spelling_.22Ancient_Greece.22.2C_.22Ancient_Rome.22.2C_.22Ancient_Egypt.22.2C_etc. and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_moves&oldid=80972773 --Espoo 10:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] historical periods

Partly due to total lack of guidance for many fields on this project page, there is total chaos on WP in capitalisation in many fields, not just history, and the Lawyer Mania of Capitalising Every IMPORTANT Word and then 'adding' "OTHER" Means of emphasis is spreading like wildfire.

"Ancient Japan", "Classical Japan", "Pre-Columbian", and "Colonial America", are all spelled incorrectly. The accepted practice in this field (as shown by Britannica and those university and museum sites i found) seems to demand that these examples and in fact most historical periods be spelled without capitalisation. The only exceptions to this default rule seem to be major geological eras (even those unknown to the general public) and only those historical periods that are well-known and used in general English. The reason "Communist China" as the name of a historical period is capitalised is not because it's a period but because it's the name of a country and therefore a proper noun (despite not being the official name of the country).

I guess the reasoning is that all periods unknown to the general public are essentially descriptive and not really proper nouns; this is especially true of periods that are not clearly defined or that are defined in different ways by different authorities. http://today.uci.edu/resources/word.asp?key=370 says: historical periods and events Capitalize names of widely recognized epochs in history: the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the Civil War, the Atomic Age, Prohibition, the Great Depression. Capitalize only the proper name in general descriptions of a period: medieval France, the Victorian era, the fall of Rome. For additional guidance, follow the capitalization in Webster’s New World Dictionary.

Looks like there is a huge amount of cleaning up to do on WP and looks like the misspelling of "ancient" that some of us have drastically reduced is only the tip of the iceberg... --Espoo 09:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This not a misspelling - it is a difference in style. You may be more familiar with not capitalising, others are more familiar with capitalising. Both are right
I often see Ancient rather than ancient Greece, and Imperial rather than imperial Rome. I'm not convinced we need to dictate one particular rule. Let the authors of each article address style issues based on what is most suitable for the audience they are targetting the article at. Different articles will be targetted at different audience. We shouldn't presume that a one-size-fits-all style is desirable here, jguk 18:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Can you cite some reputable sources where you've seen the capitalised spelling? As explained on Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_November_2#Category:Education_in_Ancient_Greece, the non-capitalised spelling is the established practice in both US and UK spelling on reputable sites and in other reputable sources and in the WP articles. --Espoo 18:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Just search on google to get a guide as to common usage, which is what I'm referring to here, jguk 21:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
That comment is too vague and doesn't support your claim. Did you even bother to look at the link i provided? My extensive research using Google to find reputable sites shows that "ancient" should not be capitalised and that is the general consensus on WP. --Espoo 06:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The link you provided was to some guidance in a style manual. But the style advocated in that style manual is far from universal. See, for example, [4], [5], [6], [7]. Yes, "ancient Greece" seems more common than "Ancient Greece", but the latter capitalisation has a reasonable level of currency. Certainly enough for us not to say it is wrong. If authors believe a style using the latter is suitable for the audience they are targetting, then they should be allowed to use it, jguk 08:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean the link i quoted from. I meant this: As explained on Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_November_2#Category:Education_in_Ancient_Greece, the non-capitalised spelling is the established practice in both US and UK spelling on reputable sites and in other reputable sources and in the WP articles. That has this link http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_moves&oldid=80972773#Noncontroversial_proposals with the following links to reputable US and UK sites that are much more authoritative than what you found: but "ancient" is not usually capitalised by careful spellers or reference works even in connection with other countries that don't have modern equivalents. e.g. "ancient Rome" (and the equivalent to "ancient Egypt" of "ancient Greece") in Britannica 2000 and on these reputable US and UK pages (I honestly didn't find or leave out contradictions): [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], Culture_of_ancient_Rome, Ancient_Rome (only one misspelling), Roman_Empire, History_of_Rome (several misspellings), etc.
The sites you provide are problematic, not reputable, amateur, or non-native English, and they either contradict your claim or their capitalisation of "ancient" is only one of many other aspects of their unprofessional editing and lack of expertise:
  • link 1) "the library is created by students"
  • 2) despite hype claiming to be "part of the Granada Learning group of companies - the leading force in UK Education, with a wide range of expertise in all key areas" the important info in that hype is that the site is made by a company, not an outfit that can hold a candle to the reputable sites i listed. It also has the following kind of sloppy and amateur capitalisation back and forth on http://www.angliacampus.com/learn/sec/history/ancemp01/ : "Why did the Ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece and Rome have such large empires? This is a question that has caused a lot of arguments amongst historians. Was it as a result of their military power? Or did trade and peaceful contact with other countries have more to do with it? Travel back in time 3,000 years, explore the ancient empires of Egypt, Greece and Rome and decide for yourself."
  • 3) a Greek site, i.e. absolutely no authority on English spelling
  • 4) proves my point and disproves your claim: This link only misspells once with a capital in what may be an incorrect quote from a site whose link doesn't work ("Index of Maps of Ancient Greek World: This page provides an index to the maps of Ancient Greece..."), all other cases are headings. --Espoo 18:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The links I provided demonstrate usage. I'd add that if individual editors did not sometimes adopt the same usage, you would not have the issue arising here. jguk 18:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
As i showed, the links you provided demonstrate amateur and unprofessional usage, and the only one that doesn't do that proves your claim wrong. I also checked out the links listed on that fourth site that you provided (e.g. http://www.museum.upenn.edu/Greek_World/Index.html), and they all follow established museum and encyclopedia usage. In addition, all reputable sites i have found in extensive Internet research never capitalise "ancient" in this context. WP should follow established usage on reputable sites and in other reputable sources. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to find a single museum or university site in any English-speaking country that capitalises "ancient". WP is not interested in the sloppy usage demonstrated by your non-reputable sites. --Espoo 19:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Espoo let me know about this discussion through my talk page. There's widespread support, I think, for following what MOS implies and using "ancient Greece", "ancient Rome", etc. In addition to the evidence provided by Espoo, you can see the discussion at Talk:Gymnasium (ancient Greece). I have little doubt that if the same discussion were carried out on other classically-themed articles the result would be the same, and that's because most editors working on these articles prefer to follow the example of well-established academic usage. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acronymns and initial capitals

Can anyone recommend which is correct in the case of Minimum Number of Individuals or Minimum number of individuals, which clearly need to be merged. Normal MOS would be for Minimum number of individuals, except that the community of people likely to look it up would expect Minimum Number of Individuals, because it is normally abbreviated to MNI, not mni or Mni. Viv Hamilton 20:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Both articles already get it right in the body text. They call it the minimum number of individuals. That should be the title of the article, but the first letter should be capitalized since we use title case for article titles.
Acronyms are created by taking the first letters of the constituent words and writing them together in capitals. That doesn’t mean that, to re-form the original phrase, we should keep the capitals. For example: CD, compact disc; IM, instant message; DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid; LED, light-emitting diode; etc. --Rob Kennedy 00:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
(Someone already beat me to it, but I figure I might as well post anyway.)
If the idea is to have a single article at one title, with the other article becoming a redirect to the first, then I don't think it matters too much how people are most likely to look it up; either way, they'll get the right article. So I'd say that it's more important to use the title that best conforms to Wikipedia:Naming Conventions. (That said, one of Wikipedia's naming conventions is use common names of persons and things, so the two issues are somewhat interconnected.)
I don't think the all-caps-ness of the initialism, taken alone, is reason to title-case its expansion; consider LED ("light emitting diode"), TV ("television"), LCD ("liquid crystal display"), BP ("blood pressure"), and so on. Indeed, it's my impression that all-caps are used for most non-acronymic initialisms, even when their expansions are all-lowercase; the only exceptions I can think of offhand are units of measurement (rpm, dpi, psi, etc.), various Internet colloquialisms (brb, lol, etc.), and a few common statistics initialisms (pdf, cdf, etc.).
That's just my opinion, though.
Ruakh 00:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:scaps

I'm planning to nominate template:scaps (see Interstate 469#Interchanges for an example of it in use - "U.S. Route 24 West") for deletion, since it violates Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Directions and regions. Will I have support if I do so? --NE2 06:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that this sort of use is what Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Directions and regions is referring to. Even if it is, that's an argument for using {{scaps|west}} rather than {{scaps|West}}, not an argument for eliminating {{scaps}} altogether. —RuakhTALK 14:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Either way, it's using capital letters to look "pretty", when lowercase letters contain the same informational content. --NE2 15:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it's using small-caps, which are not the same as capital letters. And if all we care about is informational content, then why do we even have a style guide? How does the existence of a style guide contribute to Wikipedia's informational content? —RuakhTALK 15:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Huh? The style guide coordinates style so the information is easier to access. --NE2 17:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
So if, for example, an article had some Headings That Were Title-Cased and some Headings that had only the first letter capitalized, that would make the information more difficult to access? —RuakhTALK 17:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Can someone else give an opinion? Is it okay to throw style out because we want our articles to look like road signs? --NE2 08:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not someone else (obviously), but I'll give my opinion that no, we shouldn't throw style out. I just don't think {{scaps}} does so. —RuakhTALK 13:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. It seems the template’s entire purpose is to promote a style for directions in road-related tables. A noble goal. I don’t like the implementation of it, though. The template encodes a specific choice of style in its name. I’d prefer that the template be named, say, {{direction}} instead, so that if the preferred style for directions on road tables changes, the template can be editted without making its name meaningless.
However, I don’t think this is a good choice of style. Wikipedia articles are not road signs and are not subject to laws and guidelines governing the appearance of road signs. Just write the directions using normal case. Capitalized or not, I don’t really care. --Rob Kennedy 02:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Undue(?) absence of capitals

What to do with things that are clearly proper names, but don't have any capitals at all?

For instance, suppose the Derailing Ukuleles produce a CD with the following track list:

  1. country roads
  2. my bonnie hills
  3. hell is other people
  4. anonymous recursion

Now, I would change these to "Country Roads", "My Bonnie Hills", and so on, but not every editor does that. What is our policy on this? Considering these are proper names, I think they should have at least one capital at the beginning. About the others I'm not so certain, mainly because artists who do use caps vary in this respect.

Should we use the same rule we apply to all caps, i.e. "WAR BEGINS TODAY" → "War Begins Today", therefore "war begins today" should also become "War Begins Today"? Shinobu 04:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Proper nouns are ordinarily capitalized, but if the owner of a name chooses not to capitalize it, then that's what goes. The complication is, sometimes the track list that comes with the CD uses lowercased names as a cool (*cough*) stylistic thing, but then press releases and so on do use titlecased names. When this is the case, I think the titlecased names are the correct ones for Wikipedia's purposes. (Sometimes the lowercased form really is the correct form, though, as with e.g. "birthright israel", "eBay", and so on; in these cases, lowercased forms even occur on legal documents, articles of incorporation, and so on.) —RuakhTALK 20:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, but see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)#Trademarks which begin with a lowercase letter. —RuakhTALK 15:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization of "to be"

I was wondering what the conventions on forms of the verb "to be" in titles (in reference to albums, songs and the like) were. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to locate a page where Wikipedia's policy on this issue is outlined. I personally prefer to omit capitalization in such cases (Johnny Cash is Coming to Town instead of Johnny Cash Is Coming to Town; the former has been redirected to the latter, as is the case with Happiness is You), but if Wikipedia has a different opinion on the matter, I'll abide by the rules. Thanks in advance. Cromag 09:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The forms of be are always capitalized in titles, as they're verbs. (I'm exaggerating slightly with "always", as you can always find an exception, but I've never come across a newspaper that doesn't capitalize forms of be when using titlecase.) Indeed, the only words that aren't capitalized in titles are articles (a, an, and the), the particle to in full infinitives, conjunctions (especially and and to a lesser extent or; details vary by house style), and prepositions (especially short ones; again, details vary). —RuakhTALK 16:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, I stand corrected. I'll start implementing this rule in my previous and future contributions. Cromag 13:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Airline Pages

I believe that Fleet tables as well as basic heading titles for categories should be capitalized. It is improper grammar not to do this. Also, fleet tables should be exempt from this policy as not many things look too good without being capitalized.--68.41.96.184 21:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

OK. Table headings are capitalized. Was there some dispute about that? You seem to be proposing a policy that headings of fleet tables be capitalized, but then you ask that fleet tables be exempt from that policy. I don’t understand.
Also, note that it’s not a grammar issue at all.
(And for those who were wondering, like I was, what a “fleet table” is, I’m guessing it’s simply the tables found in the “Fleet” sections of various airline articles, such as at United Airlines or Midwest Airlines.) --Rob Kennedy 22:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm guessing that 68.41.96.184 means we should use title-case (capitalize almost every word) rather than just capitalize the first word. If so, I disagree, not because I'm a particularly big fan of the existing policy, but because I don't see why this is special enough to warrant an exception to an otherwise consistent policy. —RuakhTALK 23:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional races from other planets

I don't know what is right and could use some help clarifying. Do you capitalize fictional races from other planets? For example: a person from Mars is a Martian, according to that article, in caps. Ditto with people from Melmac (planet) and others. But, as a species name, we don't capitalize "human". (But would "Earthling" be capitalized?) The debate is on the Dragon Ball articles where editors are going back and forth capitalizing and not-capitalizing names such as Saiyan, Namek, etc. Any thoughts on this? JRP 14:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it probably depends on the source; if the source capitalizes the name of the race, then it should be capitalized, and if not, then it shouldn't. For example, the aliens in Nemesis are called "prokaryotes" (which is actually a normal biology term, referring to single-celled organisms without membrane-bound organelles), but the aliens in Star Trek are called "Klingons", "Romulans", etc. BTW, "human" is a bad comparison, because humans aren't currently thought of as an ethnic group; but if sentient races existed on other planets and we had serious interactions with them, then we'd probably start to think of humans as an ethnic group and start writing "Human". At least, so I'd think. (Maybe not, though; whites and blacks interact a lot in the U.S., and it's mostly only overt racists who treat them as ethnic groups and write "Whites" and "Blacks".) —RuakhTALK 16:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
You’re right in noticing that human isn’t capitalized, but Earthling is. Like Martian, it’s derived from the name of the planet, and so Namekian should be capitalized after the planet Namek. Various Star Trek races are frequently treated akin to nationalities, which is sufficient reason to capitalize them — would it be appropriate to think of the other Dragon Ball Z groups that way, too? --Rob Kennedy 19:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm in a similar position. A lot of Warcraft articles have the names of the races capitalized. At the WoWWiki, the editors have decided to keep the race names lowercase in the same way Blizzard refers to them in game. Example, the soldiers are of the tauren or night elf races. --Htmlism 22:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
How does Tolkien do it? Orcs, elfs, dwarfs, hobbits, ents, maia, etc. I seem to recall that most of the cases were lower-cased, but on the other hand, I do recall talk of Men.
In any context, I believe the way it works is that a species is lower-cased while a nationality is capitalized. So, regarding the original question, saiyans lived on the planet Vegeta, slaves to Freeza's empire. On Earth lives humans and furries, collectively known as Earthlings. –Gunslinger47 02:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, Tolkien does capitalize the names of those races. Secondly, just an FYI, he writes not of "Elfs" and "Dwarfs", but of "Elves" and "Dwarves". ("Elves" is actually the universally-used plural of "elf", whereas "dwarfs" was the more common plural before Tolkien, and is still used except when referring to magical races.) —RuakhTALK 04:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I forgot which way it was. I remember that he insisted on writing it one way or another and his editors kept "correcting" him. –Gunslinger47 22:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's not a question of "races". The point is that Mars is a proper name, which makes Martian a proper adjective, therefore capitalized. We don't capitalize "human", but would capitalize "Terran", for the same reason. (And surely we would capitalize Earthman; an earthman is presumably someone who sells dirt.) --Trovatore 07:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] After a colon

People are taught different rules about whether the first letter after a colon should be capitalized. This may reflect a difference in American versus British usage. Sometimes this gives rise to little disputes and edit skirmishes. As far as I can see the MoS is silent on the issue. I propose adding a small section to this submanual with the following suggested "compromise" rule:

Use a capital letter after a colon only if the colon could be replaced by a full stop.

In other words, only when the colon separates two sentences that each can stand on their own.
Examples:

  • His next move surprised me: He extended his hand as if in friendship. (OK)
  • I desire many things: Chocolate, kisses, and love. (wrong; 2nd part not a sentence)

The proposed rule does not say that a capital letter ever should be used in this position, only that it may be used. What do people think?  --LambiamTalk 21:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't read that sentence the way that you're saying you intend it; I realize that "only if" is sometimes used in math as the opposite of "if" (due apparently to a misunderstanding of the structure of "if and only if"), but in a non-technical context it does not have that meaning, and instead means the same as "if and only if". How about this instead:
Do not use a capital letter after a colon, except optionally in cases where the colon could be replaced by a full stop (period).
? —RuakhTALK 22:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


I've removed the following for discussion:

Different rules exist also concerning the question whether the first letter after a colon should be capitalized. The following guidelines form a compromise between the various conventions in use.

  1. Do not use a capital letter after a colon.
  2. An exception to 1 may be made if the colon could be replaced by a full stop.
In other words, if you use a capital letter, do so only when the colon separates two sentences that each can stand on their own.
Examples:
  • Correct: His next move surprised me: He extended his hand as if in friendship.
  • Incorrect: I desire many things: Chocolate, kisses, and love. (Here the second part is not a sentence.)

It may be that U.S. style guides suggest a capital after a colon in the way suggested at 2, but looking at all the U.S. published books on my shelves, I can't find one that does this. The only times in normal usage that a word is capitalised after a colon (aside from proper names, etc.) are:

  1. In titles (not all style guides support this; personally I don't do it, but it's a respectable approach)
    "The Problem of Evil: A Reader"
  2. When the colon introduces a new sentence (which is usually but not always placed in inverted commas, italicised, or placed on a new line and indented).
    "Again, from a parliamentary report:
    No formal request has been made..."

The latter is simply a version of the normal rule, that capitals are used after full stops (including question marks and exlamation marks when they stand for full stops), to introduce quotations, for proper names, etc. The mere fact that a clause could stand on its own as a sentence isn't grounds to start it with a full stop (after all, that could be true of what follows a comma, and is usually true of what follows a semicolon).

The suggested guideline is in any case too complicated. All that's needed is: don't use a capital letter after a colon except to start a quotation that starts with a capital letter. If people disagree with me about titles (I haven't checked; that's almost certainly already dealt with in the appropriate place), then that proviso could be added. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Individual typographical choices for personal names

A couple of times I've come across debates on Talk pages concerning capitalisation of a proper name when the bearer has chosen to use all lower caser case (I suppose that the same would apply to all upper case, and other variations). The Japanese singer hide, for example, spelt his name with no initial capital; the standard approach in most publications would be to respect this, capitalising ithe name only at the beginnings of sentences. I can find no mention of such cases in the MoS, though (or anywhere else). have I missed it? If I haven't could we reach agreement on a guideline, and include it here? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

As I have already outlined on the talk page of the example Mel Etitis mentioned, my approach would be to apply (and if necessary extend) WP:NC#Album titles and band names and WP:MOS-TM and give standard English text formatting and capitalization rules the preference over typographic eccentricities, in order to maintain a unified approach and make affected articles more readable in general. In this particular case for example, it is only obvious through context that one is reading the artist's stage name and not the verb "hide". - Cyrus XIII 15:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
In this particular case, I must admit that I don't see much genuine scope for confusion (first, few sentences could use "hide" as either a verb or a name and still make any sense; secondly, in any case, given that it's an article on a person called "hide", it would be a very slow reader who didn't pick up on the fact that it's meant as a name). The question is, though, more general. WP:NC#Album titles and band names doesn't cover this issue (it doesn't mention initial capitals), and I'm afraid that I disagree with what is said about the first case in WP:MOS-TM#Trademarks which begin with a lowercase letter (though the the second two cases make sense — and it's difficult to see why they're not extended to cover the first). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII has now edited the article to change all the capitalisation to his preferred style, on the grounds that no-one has answered here, and one newspaper article does the same. Any chance of some discussion on this?

When E.E. Cumming's name was presented in lower case by his publishers, newspapers, magazines, and books followed suit, respecting what they believed to be the author's preferred typography (this page gives some of the history, with clear accounts (including quotations from letters, etc.) of respected academic publishers being prepared to decapitalise the name, but asking for details). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

A few points which I would like to add:
  • That one newspaper article was written by noted music journalist Neil Strauss and published in the New York Times, which is quite an established publication.
  • I have previously contacted Mel Etitis on his talk page, asking whether he would consider the article a sufficient enough source to settle this dispute, or whether we should put in for a third opinion over at WP:3O. After three days without reply, I changed the article in question to my preferred style as it has been put.
  • Because of Mel Etitis reverts of these and other, rather uncontroversial changes to the article, I have now put in for a third opinion.
- Cyrus XIII 11:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
  1. Different publications have different styles; the question is what we should do. Note that our MoS differs from that of the New York Times in many respects.
  2. I'm sorry that I was too busy to reply within three days; I hadn't realised that that was the deadline, though.
  3. I rather thought that asking for other opinions was what I was doing here... --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the rules regarding lowercase-beginning trademarks would be good to apply here as well. I have always thought this article at The Slot summarizes the arguments well. You have to draw the line somewhere and tomorrow someone could decide their name was "iNTERNETaBcDeFgHiJkLmNoPqRsTuVwXyZ.com." Grouse 13:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

There are surely significant differences between what we say about logos and what we say about personal names. A logo is generally different from the official name of a company; in most cases the official name conforms to normal usage. Similarly for the choices of typeface and style for the names of bands: not only do they differ from the official names, but they often vary from album to album, from press release to press release, etc. Personally I deprecate the use of non-standard capitalisation in such names (and in personal names); it's a silly gimmick, and I lose some respect for those who go in for it — but it's a fact that that's how they give their name. (The document to which you link, by the way, is itself contentious in places. the first point they maek – that people glancing through text only register capitalised words – just doesn't seem to stand up, and is in any case irrelevant here. We're not writing for people who only glance through the text, even if journalists are.) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for arriving this late. Thanks for notifying me about this discussion, Cyrus. I agree with Mel Etitis and Grouse. Whenever I saw the line The correct name of this individual is xxx. It is capitalized due to technical restrictions, I always felt tempted to change it to This individual can't even spell their own name correctly. The word "correct" was the most annoying -- correct according to what? I would understand if it was in Vladimir Putin's article, saying that The correct name of this indiviual is Влади́мир Влади́мирович Пу́тин, but names written in an English wikipedia about English-speaking people with English names should follow the rules of the English grammar. I don't think anyone is important enough to have the rules of grammar changed for them.

This issue comes up most often in the articles of various Japanese singers and several music albums. It is often impossible to find out whether the name of that music album indeed has to be spelled this way, or is it in uppercase only because it looks better that way. I have lots of books and music albums, and just taking now a quick glance at all the books and CDs that are currently on my table, all of them except for two CDs have their articles in all caps, just because it looks good. I guess at least 90% of all books ever published have the title on the title page in all caps. Still we don't write those titles in all caps, because everyone with a sound mind realizes this is just a question of typography, a part of the artwork. (And those two CDs that are exceptions have their titles in spall caps and italics; how will we manage to write article titles in italics?)

As I wrote on the talk page of the Bell Hooks article, it doesn't matter how does an individual write his or her name, or how does it appear in books. IMO in importance grammar comes first, personal preferences second. It can be mentioned in their article if their preference of this unusual spelling plays an important role in their life, but spelling their name in lowercase is:

  1. grammatically incorrect
  2. makes the text harder to read (some users' insistence on using the lowercase version was so intense that they used it even at the beginnings of sentences, which made the whole text flow together as if the article were one long sentence)
  3. and on overall makes Wikipedia seem less serious.

In addition, it is potentially confusing for non-native English speakers, especially if the should-be-capitalized name is similar to other nouns, e.g. when reading an article about feminism, and seeing bell hooks mentioned in the middle of a sentence just like this, in lowercase, I stopped for a few seconds, not knowing what a bell hook is and what does it have to do with feminism.

Proper names should be capitalized and this should be included in the Manual of Style. I have to add that I'm sad that it has to be included -- in my native language's Wikipedia it doesn't have to be included in the MoS, as it had already been included in grammar books for seven-year-olds, but judging from the edit wars in some articles, apparently some people have skipped those.

(Sorry if I sound harsh, but I feel strongly about this issue.)

– Alensha talk 01:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, you should note that it's possible to feel strongly while remaining polite. (Perhaps in your native language's Wikipedia that's not considered important, but here it is.) Saying that you're "sad" that people disagree with you, seeing as seven-year-olds should be taught to agree with you, is not polite.
Secondly, your vague references to "grammar" confuse me; what rule of grammar says that names should be misspelled? And where do we draw the line; does this mean that in general, if we consider a name to be grammatically incorrect, we should "correct" it? How about misspelled names? (Should we write "Outcast" instead of "OutKast"?) And how do we feel about people who change their names, or use pseudonyms? Should we "correctly" use their birth names?
You'll note that major news organizations generally use correct names; see http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=ebay&btnG=Search+News for example, and note that most news organizations use "eBay" (except at the start of a sentence, where they're about evenly divided between "eBay" and "EBay"). There are a few that write "Ebay", but as of right now, all such put it right next to glaring grammatical errors (seemingly as a polite way of indicating that they're not even trying to be correct, though that can't really be the reason).
When news organizations and scholars don't capitalize a name, it makes Wikipedia look unprofessional to enforce a "grammatical" style that capitalizes it. You might as well say that Wikipedia should replace all instances of who with whom because the latter looks more correct.
—RuakhTALK 02:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid the more recent posts have introduced a few misunderstandings, I would like to sort them out before proceeding with an answer:
Alensha initially aligned herself with Grouse and Mel Etitis in this dispute, while actually these editors do not share the same opinion. Grouse and me consider the Manual of Style regarding trademarks (WP:MOS-TM) to be applicable to personal names and stage names, Mel Etitis - and I hope I am not misrepresenting his position - does not.
Now, Ruakh has mentioned eBay as an example for names which are generally not "corrected" in most publications. Yet, eBay is the trademarked name of a company, not a personal name. If it was out of question to apply that bit of the MoS about trademarks for any name whatsoever, we would not be having this discussion.
Regarding drawing the line: I believe the rule Alensha is referring to is one regarding personal names and proper nouns, namely "as proper nouns these names are always first-letter capitalized" (quoting Wikipedia:Proper names#Personal names). In the initial discussion (on Talk:Hide (musician)), Mel Etitis has considered people's individual typographical choices important enough to override this rule, but not at the beginning of a sentence. Now please consider that eBay for which we have a guideline, is not first-letter capitalized, even at the beginning of a sentence.
Indulge me for a second: I am currently looking at the mental image of a graph attached to my fridge, with little magnet markers on it. The graph says "rules I can override", one marker says "trademark" and the other says "personal name". "Trademark" is really high up on the graph, it gets to override pretty much all of the rules. "Personal name" is somewhere in the middle, it gets to topple some, but not all of them. Now, is this really a respectful way for treating those names? I think the implications for drawing the line somewhere are quite nasty and applying an already existing set of rules which has been deemed appropriate for all those products, companies and organizations out there, is at least a clean cut. - Cyrus XIII 09:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with much of what Cyrus XIII says here (and thanks to him for clearing up some misundrestandings that have crept in to the discussion). It is, of course, only at the end, where he gives his opinion of the treatment of personal names, that I disagree. It seems to me that some people wish to be addressed and referred to by a common noun (an uncapitalised name). Fine; the capitalisation rules of English say that common nouns are uncapitalised except at the beginnings of sentences. (Many (most?) Manuals of Style would say the same about a trade name such as "eBay", judging by printed sources that I've seen.) No rule of English is overridden, only the social conventions of naming, with which the Manual of Style is surely unconcerned. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

First, sorry if what I wrote came across as rude. Second, of course I meant to write "I agree with Cyrus XIII and Grouse" but it was already late at night when I wrote that and mixed up their names... sorry. By grammar I meant the rule that proper names should be capitalized. Cyrus pretty much cleared up what I mixed up. Thanks!
Mel says that some people wish to be referred to by a common noun. For me those names did not seem common nouns but uncapitalized proper nouns. The reason for this is that common nouns are generally preceded by articles, e.g. if "Michael" were a common noun, we would not write "michael said this and that", we would write "the michael said this and that", just like we would write "the teacher said", not "teacher said". From this it seems that these persons do treat their names as names, not common nouns. So actually the rule would be overridden.
Also, when deciding about how to write names in an article we should be reader-friendly. When someone's name is not capitalized, it is possible to write whole paragraphs without a single capital letter in them, which would make the paragraph difficult to read. "eBay" is different in this case, since the letter B fulfills the role that a capital E would do in "Ebay", but if their name would be spelt as "ebay", I'd say let's capitalize the first letter and mention it in the article that they don't capitalize it.
– Alensha talk 15:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Good point about common nouns — I'll withdraw that argument. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Given that there has recently been another comment on Talk:Hide (musician) in favor of capitalizing the name, can we conclude, that the majority of editors actively involved in this discussion are in favor of applying standard English formatting rules, with some of them considering WP:MOS-TM applicable in these cases? - Cyrus XIII 21:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not terribly clear to me, to be honest. It looks pretty well evenly divided — two on each side. The issue has been raised elsewhere, recently (see The pillows). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
No, I am afraid the ratio is more like 2:1 by now and I would not have requested for this discussion to come to its due end, if it was any less clear.
In favor:
Not in favor:
  • Mel Etitis
  • Ruakh (though his argument is based on a trademark example, covered by WP:MOS-TM)
Regarding The Pillows: You previously dismissed one of my arguments on Talk:Hide (musician), stating "Cyrus XIII's point doesn't apply here; not only are we not dealing with an album or band name...", so please, practice what you preach and do not bring in a band name-related example either. Unless of course you would like me to point out the recent consensus to move KISS (band) to Kiss (band) and that bit of the Manual of Style which explicitly mentions Korn (KoЯn) as an example for stylized typography not to be carried over to Wikipedia. - Cyrus XIII 00:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  1. Please try not to be so confrontational; I didn't present The pillows as an argument, I mentioned that the issue had been raised elsewhere recently, and pointed you to an example.
  2. I missed Grouse's (indented and short) contribution (though 3:2 is not more like 2:1 &nmdash; it's 3:2, which is still not consensus).
  3. The Korn case is not analogous; leaving aside the difficulty of typing "KoЯn)", it involves an alien character, not merely the case of a letter. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I had been avoiding this particular discussion since it’s gotten a little hairy and all the arguments I would have made have already been stated. But Cyrus invited me to chime in, so here I am. You can include my name in the “in favor” list. People’s names get capitalized. That applies just as much to Bell Hooks and Hide as it does to the rest of us. I consider it in the readers’ best interest to capitalize proper nouns accordingly. --Rob Kennedy 03:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to weigh in in favor of respecting typographical choices for personal and even group names, such as bell hooks and CLAMP. Typography is not grammar, and when it comes to names, idiomatic typography may be considered by the parties involved to be as essential as idiomatic spelling. —pfahlstrom 00:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I also bring up the case of danah boyd whose legal name is lowercased (see its talk page), yet for some reason this statement is not even being allowed to exist in the article. I will see if anything can be done about that. —pfahlstrom 02:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Like Pfahlstrom, I'm chiming in in favor of respecting people's choice in how their names are written, be those personal names, professional names or band names. We have no right to choose how to spell their names, this would be original research and breaking NPOV (preferring one style over another). Spelling choices are verifiable and should follow the same rules as the inclusion of any material: WP:ATT. Kyaa the Catlord 06:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Like Rob Kennedy, I'm in favor of capitalizing all personal names and other proper nouns. The preference of the subject should definitely be mentioned in the article intro (and discussed elsewhere in the article if relevant to the subject's notability) but otherwise the article should conform to standard capitalization conventions. This is something that should be clarified in the guideline, as the guideline explicitly states that proper nouns should be capitalized in headings but is silent about body text. PubliusFL 23:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bible

I often encounter "bible" although the rulemakers apparently agree it's "Bible". So would it be OK to add this: "Scriptures like the Bible and Qur'an should be capitalized"?

Which rulemakers do you mean? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I meant [17], although I will yield to someone with access to a better source. Art LaPella 22:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, not exactly rulemakers — and the vast majority of those hits aren't about capitalising the word "bible", but various things in the bible, such as pronouns, rivers, sections, etc. Similarly for a search on "don't capitalize Bible" or "don't capitalise Bible" (which throw up [http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1022664 this discussion[ between published writers, with no real consensus (but very strongly, not to say bullyingly, expressed opinions from a few of the contributors). There's also a Christian site that sometimes capitalises and sometimes doesn't:
("Christianity Magazine: Archive - Mending marriages, created by God ...British Christian magazine with bible teaching, book and music reviews, ... good place to capitalise on the situation, though it is facing difficult times. ...
www.christianitymagazine.co.uk/engine.cfm?i=92&id=285&arch=1 - 94k -
In fact I'm pretty well neutral, leaning towards capitalisation, but I'm not sure that there's a clear consensus on the issue (though I think that North America goes in for rather more capitalisation than the U.K.). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have much experience with Britishisms, but after going through the links above I'd say there is a consensus on this issue. Some of the hits don't express an opinion, but the hits that do express an opinion on capitalizing "Bible" appear to be unanimous. Christianity Magazine's Google blurb uncapitalizes Bible, but clicking the link shows it capitalized in the text, and searching its archives I found about 40 Bibles and 1 bible. The blog you cited also came to a consensus - the advocate of uncapitalizing concluded "I totally accept that I was outside the norm in not capitalising Bible, will try to do better". Anyway, the blog is open to all writers and doesn't strike me as being as authoritative as several sites like [18] . Art LaPella 00:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd disagree that the blog showed a consensus; it involved some evidence for the use of the uncapitalised form, followed by some (simply incorrect, but very strongly worded) claims that non-capitalisation was grammatically incorrect; that seemed to bully the original poster into saying that he'd been wrong. There's a lot of bullying in this area, usually involving poor arguments expressed very strongly; we see it on Wikipedia too.
As I tend to capitalise it myself, in most but not all circumstances, I'm easy, though I don't think that there's a clear argument either way. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
"The Bible", in reference to the Jewish Bible or to the Christian Bible, should definitely be capitalized; that's definitely the norm. Similarly with "Bible" used as to modify another noun, as in "Bible scholars" and "Bible translations", and with specific translations and copies when described as "bibles", as in "the Breeches Bible" and "he had several Bibles in his office". When used metaphorically, as in "the C bible" (the definitive book on the C programming language, written by its creators), it should not be. I'm not sure about the adjective "Biblical", though, as in "Biblical figures"; my instinct is to capitalize it, but I think Americans and Britons might differ over that. —RuakhTALK 03:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exit numbers

Should exit numbers (like "exit 60") be capitalized? I don't think they should be, but it's been argued that they are proper nouns. (The specific case is Interstate 295 (Delaware-New Jersey), but it applies to many highway articles.) --NE2 00:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

To do a little bit of copy-and-pasting from my prior discussion with NE2 on the matter:
It seems to me that it's a specific location, and would be capitalized the same way any road – or even the East Los Angeles Interchange – would be. The fact that it's numbered instead of actually named the way that example is shouldn't make a difference; while a bit of a stretch, a good analogy would be how Interstate 90 and the Indiana Toll Road are both capitalized.
A search of Google News for Exit 5 yields 29 / 35 results capitalized, an overwhelming majority. I understand why that "tendancy to avoid" (in response to NE2: "Wikipedia tends to avoid capitalization when it's only done sometimes, like with directions.") would be a good idea in some situations, but IMHO it's pretty clear here that it should be capitalized. -- NORTH talk 00:32, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

After a little thinking, it seems my "gut feeling" is because it's similar to "mayor of New York" rather than "Mayor Giuliani": "exit 60 of I-295" rather than "Exit 60 Trenton/Belmar". --NE2 00:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense, but I still think it's closer to my analogy (Interstate 90) than yours. -- NORTH talk 00:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Wellllll....if you want to get pedantic about it, "EXIT ###" would match what's most often seen on exit signs. ;-) However of pictures I've seen that don't use the CAPS LOCK that DOTs are so fond of, "Exit ###" seems to be the most commonly used format. - Aerobird Target locked - Fox One! 01:32, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree that the exit number should be capitalised. Allegheny Valley Interchange/Exit 48 (Old Exit 4). The exit number would be the name of an interchange, and since it's a name, it's capitalized. Also to Aerobird, it seems that the non-caps lock variations are on newer signs, while older signs still use caps lock. I have a whole collection of exit sign pictures online somewhere that was for the sole purpose of illustrating that point...maybe one day it will have a real use. --MPD T / C 01:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think signage should be used as evidence one way or the other. Text documents from DOTs would be useful, though.

In response to the Giuliani analogy, on second thought, I'm not sure that's entirely correct. See Mayor of New York City. However, I think it would be "New York City mayor" - using New York City as an adjective for the common noun "mayor". Thus, perhaps it would be "Exit 60", but "Belmar exit"? -- NORTH talk 20:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with you there, except where the interchanges are named. Like on the PA Turnpike or in LA. "Pittsburgh Interchange" but "Monroeville exit", since the former the name, the latter is a description I guess. There has to be somewhere that uses "Exit" like I cited "Interchange", so hopefully my parallel comes across. But to strictly address the issue of capitalizing "exit" in the article when referring to "exit" followed by the number, that should be acceptable, because I would see "Exit 60" as more of a proper noun, since it's the name of the exit...maybe a good parallel would also be "Route 4" or "Highway 4", not "route 4" or "highway 4". I sincerely hope I'm making sense. --MPD T / C 01:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chess variants

How names of chess variants should be capitalized? For example, what is correct (when used inside a sentence), a) Cylinder Chess, b) Cylinder chess or cylinder chess? I have a few books on chess variants and all of them use different capitalizations. Andreas Kaufmann 19:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "o" in "o'clock"

Would interested editors have a look at what's been happening at The 11 O'Clock Show? A user, after an abortive attempt to argue that we should change the capitalisation rules to allow the capitalisation of the preposition in "o'Clock", waited a while and then renamed this article. I've listed it as a (controversial) move back. Discussion would be welcome. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "S" in Church Street

When naming a particular road or street in any area, would it be correct to say "Church Street" or "Church street"? Thanks. --Sarcha 45 17:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The former. Look at your local newspaper for examples. --Rob Kennedy 22:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
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