Talk:Manuel I Komnenos

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[edit] Normans of Sicily

Hi everyone, just a quick note to say I hope my contributions to this article are of use, and please write some comments! Any suggestions for improvements would be much appreciated. Thanks! Bigdaddy1204 23:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Bigdaddy1204, thanks for you contributions to this page, but I have one problem: the paragraph beginning "After Manuel's death, the Normans of Sicily would invade Byzantium again in 1185, sacking Thessalonica..." I am not disputing the truth of the assertions in the rest of the paragraph because that is likely what would have happened, but it is, after all, rather speculative and meaningless. I didn't want to remove it entirely but I also couldn't figure out how to cut down on the speculation. It is not our place on Wikipedia to dicuss "what-ifs" in detail, I don't think. Is there any way we can fix this paragraph? Adam Bishop 18:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmm... I can see what you're saying about the 'what if' section, you may be right that it is going slightly beyond the necessary so I'm working on a solution to that at the moment. Thanks for not removing it outright, and if you do get any new ideas for further additions or improvements, I'd be glad to see them. Bigdaddy1204

P.S. In the last section, I put in a hyperlink to Myriokephalon, but was told that no page exists on it. Yet in an earlier chapter the same hyperlink does work and is connected to just such a page. How is this possible? I checked spelling but it's the same!

The earlier link is a hidden link to Battle of Myriokephalon. There is no article for the place. Adam Bishop 21:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

The Damietta image is supposed to depict the Seventh Crusade, I think. Damietta was attacked during one of the 12th-century invasions of Egypt, but that's not what the image represents. Adam Bishop 17:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I fully accept the above comment on the Damietta image.

However I noticed that the image of the Danube has been removed, but there is no explanation given for this. I find it disapointing that someone has taken it upon themselves to remove an image which I think contributes to the article in a positive way. Perhaps there is a perfectly reasonable reason for this, but currently I feel this action is vandalism, not a constructive contribution to the article. I am not claiming to be an amazingly brilliant writer, but I made contributions to this article which were by no means insubstantial, because I wanted it to be as good as possible. I can see that it may be argued that if I did not want people to edit articles that I have been working on, then I shouldn't have got involved in wikipedia. But I do not think that is the issue here. I do not have a problem with people making changes. I just don't like it when people delete things without at least having the decency to briefly comment why. It really doesn't take much effort to do so.

Complaints aside, I wish you all a happy Christmas, and once again I would be very grateful to anyone who has any ideas or suggestions for improving this article still further. Thanks!

Bigdaddy1204 00:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The image was deleted from Wikipedia, presumably because it was copyrighted somewhere else...I'm not sure. Did you upload it originally? Adam Bishop 01:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining what happened to the image. I think it came from wikipedia, though I can't be completely certain of this. All the other images that I added, such as the image of the nile, are from wikipedia, and I do remember making an effort to find appropriate images from within wikipedia, rather than from elsewhere, so as to avoid this kind of problem. Perhaps the image has just been 'cleared out' as unnecessary clutter? In any case, I will look for a new image to replace the old one. Bigdaddy1204 15:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, well, it must have been taken from another website originally...if it was used elsewhere on Wikipedia, it will have been deleted from those other articles as well, so it's nothing against this page specifically. Adam Bishop 16:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The recent edits that have been made to this page have really improved it, and it seems to me that the article is getting very good indeed. Featured Article status, here we come! :-) Bigdaddy1204 11:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who founded Manuel's Empire?

Hi Bigdaddy1204, I hope I didn't remove too much stuff the other day. Sometimes it just felt like the article was getting too off-topic and too verbose. I still have one problem though - can we really say the Empire was founded by Constantine the Great? That is a convenient date for modern historians, but Manuel himself wouldn't have thought that. Adam Bishop 18:48, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

lol no worries. At first I was a little shocked, but when I thought about it I could see that the changes probably are for the better because it made the article look more focused, more like a featured article. Interesting point about Constantine. I wanted to keep him in there somehow because I felt it was nice to have that context, that comparison, that 'setting of the scene, to really show what it meant when Manuel was crowned Emperor of Byzantium. Manuel wouldn't have thought the empire was founded by Constantine? I know the Romans had ruled Greece since about 200 BC, but who would Manuel have considered the founder of his civilisation? Bigdaddy1204 23:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, that's a good point...when did the Byzantines think the empire started? I assumed they would count all the way back to Augustus, but even that is a modern historical conceit. Did they start from Constantine because he was the first Christian emperor? Adam Bishop 00:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly a difficult question. Part of the problem is that it's not completely clear when the people of the eastern roman empire would have stopped being a conquered population and identified with the empire as their 'state', part of their identity. I suppose it might be possible to argue that this happened in the third century AD, when citizenship was granted to most of the inhabitants of the empire. But I think Constantine has a good claim to be the founder of Byzantine civilisation. Because of the central importance of Christianity within the empire throughout its history, since Constantine was the first christian emperor his reign would undoubtedly have been seen as a major landmark. Another aspect of Constantine is that he founded Constantinople as a capital of the empire. I cannot think of any other Emperor who did as much to establish Byzantium as Constantine, though I suppose some historians do choose to date the start of the Empire to the fall of the west in 476 AD, or even the reign of Justinian in 527 AD. Would they have dated back to Augustus? He was the first emperor, but he certainly wasn't Christian and he was a long way removed from the Byzantine world of 1143, when Manuel ascended the throne. Bigdaddy1204 17:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Heraclius, emperor from 610 to 641, is another possibility. He is said to have changed it from a Latin to Greek Empire.Kauffner 10:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources need to be improved

There are several book citations that need cleaning up in the Sources section. Please could you provide details of the ISBN numbers for the sources cited. Also the formatting needs to be standardised, try http://www.qwikly.com/WikiBib.html#book_reference for standard book reference templates. Thanks

Bigdaddy1204 14:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll find the ISBNs for the books I added. Meanwhile, might I suggest you use the "preview" button more often? It can be hard to follow 70 edits in a row :) Adam Bishop 05:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

lol! Good idea, I did get a bit carried away moving things around yesterday... Incidentally, I emailed 'answers.com' yesterday about updating their page, which is based on ours but was quite out of date. Out of curiosity, I was just wondering, what is the relationship between wikipedia and other sites like answers.com? Bigdaddy1204 12:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes- you can help!

I could really use a little help with the footnotes of this article. How do you get the numbers to appear properly instead of just the letter 'a'? Bigdaddy1204 16:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I believe some people are over using pictures. For instance: 1) Satellite image of Greece and surroundings - this is only a part of the Empire. 2) The Nile.

On the other hand there are very good pictures such as: 1) Fresco of Manuel I - a must 2) Map of the Byzantine Empire under Manuel. a must 3) This image by Gustave Dore shows the Turkish ambush in action - Very nice 4) This 11th-century Trebizond Gospel was commissioned by Manuel's ancestors. Nice 5) Arrival of the Second Crusade before Constantinople. Nice

The rest of the pictures are more or less OK. Othervise, I think is a good article. Cudos to Bigdaddy1204. --Cigor 15:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

About the Egypt campaign - I don't think there is too much information here. The section itself is only a relatively short part of the article, and in Michael Angold's The Byzantine Empire 1025-1204 the coverage of the Egyptian campaign is quite extensive; certainly it is not 'barely mentioned'. I believe it is worth explaining the campaign because of the significant knock-on effects which I have pointed out, such as opening the door to the conquest of Egypt by Saladin, and also the misuse of precious Byzantine resources which were urgently needed in Asia Minor. As for the images, I believe illustration is very important to liven up what would otherwise be a boring looking section of text. More specifically, though, the Hagia Sophia is a highly relevant symbol of the religious issues of the time, and fits perfectly where it is. The map of Egypt has been removed and replaced. I suppose the image of the nile could be removed if you really want, but I feel it would be a pointless change that would only detract from the visual appeal of the article. Bigdaddy1204 18:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

You said "Satellite image of Greece and surroundings - this is only a part of the Empire." But if you look at the context again, you will notice that the section was only referring to Europe - thus, your objection to the picture on the ground that it is not the whole empire just does not stand up. Bigdaddy1204 19:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree.

[edit] "Empire" or "empire"

Just a minor point: I think the upper (and lower) case in the word Empire/empire should be used in a more consistent way throughout the article.Tankred 20:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Which form do you think is best? Empire or empire? Bigdaddy1204 21:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I would personally prefer the "Empire". I checked some of the articles about Byzantine Emperors and the word "Empire" also seems to be more popular among other editors. However, the use is far from being consistent. As for other sources, both the Columbia Encyclopedia and the Chambers Biographical Dictionary use lower case. So I really do not know.Tankred 21:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Technically, I think its "empire" if preceded by something like "Byzantine" or "his [the emperor's]", but Empire if preceded by "the". --Grammatical error 06:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It's Empire if it's a short form for 'Byzantine Empire', regardless of what precedes it. HenryFlower 20:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jousting

I've had a quick look through the article, and can't find anything about this other than what's in the lead. Why was it "discomforting" to the spectators? HenryFlower 20:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In response to 'Bill'

Significant similarites between this article and the history given at http://www.roman-emperors.org/mannycom.htm. I realize it is possible for two people to come up with similar reactions to similar materials, but this looks like just a direct lift to me. -- Bill 23:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I strongly object to the above comment. First off, the sources used in this article are cited both in the bibliography and in the footnotes; the information used in this page comes from books, not from websites (which may not be a good source). The main sources used were:

  • Angold, Michael (1997). The Byzantine Empire, 1025-1204. Longman. ISBN 0582294681.
  • Norwich, John Julius (1998). A Short History of Byzantium. Penguin. ISBN 0140259600.
  • Harris, Jonathon (2003). Byzantium and the Crusades. Hambledon and London. ISBN 1852852984.
  • Ralph-Johannes Lilie, Byzantium and the Crusader States, 1096–1204. Trans. J.C. Morris and *J.C. Ridings. Clarendon Press, 1993.
  • Haldon, John (2002). Byzantium - A History. Tempus. ISBN 0752423436.

Far from being some kind of cheap copy and paste exercise, this article was actually the subject of a complete re-write by myself (with editing help from others) over a period of several months, mostly between december 2005 and march 2006. My prose is entirely original. As for the website you cited, you should know that I did not even refer to it when I was writing the article. The only explanation I can find for your seeing 'similarities' is the fact that I had read pretty much every internet source on Manuel's reign already some time before I came to start work on wikipedia, so the facts I read will have come to form part of my general knowledge on the subject before the time of writing. In this way it is conceivable that certain facts will have been presented in a similar way to that in which I originally read them, although even if this is so I hardly see how it would somehow magically make the article a copy of someone else's work, particularly as I was actually basing my work on a range of entirely different source books.

I would even dispute the suggestion that my conclusions are the same, or even broadly similar. In fact, as far as I can see the other page offers a quite different take on the reign altogether. Even at a glance, I noticed as I scrolled through that the description of the battle of Myriokephalon presents it in an entirely different light to the description here. I am sure a closer look at the site would just confirm my point; however I see no need to waste my time defending myself against baseless accusations. I don't mean to sound rude, but given the amount of time, effort and hard work that went into this article, the suggestion that it was 'just a direct lift' makes me very angry. I suggest you check the facts more carefully before making these kind of comments; they may be liable to cause offense. Bigdaddy1204 14:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


From the other site: "The emperor sent Michael Palaeologus and John Ducas with an army and gold to effect the reconquest of Apulia (1155). These two generals sought to involve the German emperor Frederick Barbarossa in the venture, since he was south of the Alps, but he declined due to the fact that his army wished to return home. " From the WP article: " Manuel sent Michael Palaeologus and John Ducas with Byzantine troops and large quantities of gold to invade Apulia (1155). The two generals were instructed to enlist the support of German emperor Frederick Barbarossa, since he was hostile to the Normans of Sicily and was south of the Alps at the time, but he declined because his demoralised army longed to get back north of the Alps as soon as possible."

Similar? I think so. Did you both read the same book and come to the same conclusion? Evidently.

I notice also that some passages from the Manuel article made their way directly to the Adrian/Hadrian IV article. I have no great problem with it, other than to say it is jarring to see a word for word copy like that. -- Bill 20:46, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that what Bigdaddy1204 wrote is no longer necessarily what is contained in the article, especially after the massive amount of editing it has received over the past few days when it was on the main paeg. I would not be surprised if someone added some copywritten text from that website, since this happens extremely frequently on Wikipedia. On the other hand, the passages Bill has quoted are not conclusive. Adam Bishop 03:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I must check the history page for the article. If I recall rightly, the section you quoted is indeed not the same as what I originally wrote. I will check up on this immediately, to find out exactly what it was I originally wrote. Perhaps Adam is right... Bigdaddy1204 11:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I have just checked the article history, and I have found the exact edit that I originally wrote for the article. It is the revision dated 'Revision as of 14:01, 27 October 2005'. Look it up for yourself - you will see the original text reads:

"In 1149 Manuel recovered Corfu and prepared to take the offensive against the Normans. With an army mainly composed of mercenary Italians he invaded Sicily and Apulia, and with the help of disaffected local barons including Count Robert of Loritello, achieved astonishingly rapid progress as the whole of southern italy rose up in rebellion against the Sicilian Crown."

It looks like Adam was right, and therefore I propose that the copywritten text be removed and replaced with the original version. I also noticed that one of the sources used by that website was 'M. Angold, The Byzantine Empire, 1025-1204: a political history, 2nd ed., London and New York, 1997.' This is the same book that I used when writing the Wikipedia article, so I am now going to check the actual section in the book that deals with this event, to see if both the website and the text in the article are actually derived from a section of text in the same book. Bigdaddy1204 12:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I have found the section in the book. It reads: "...Michael Palaiologus and John Doukas, two high-ranking Byzantine agents, [who] had been sent to Italy to stir up trouble. They had orders to co-operate, if they could, with Frederick Barbarossa. He claimed...that he would have liked to have accepted their proposal for an expedition against Sicily, but his army was tired of campaigning, and so he headed for home."

I donot know if Bigdaddy copied or not. For me that is a trivial thing ... The most important is that a young man shows such a great interest for the Byzantine Empire, something that deserves a praise. Now, I donot think that in our times exists anybody who can contest the absolute originality. Originality is dead, since so many generations of people during the past centuries have almost written and alalysed everything. The most important thing our generation can do is to try to be as much creative and analytical as it can be. So our edits have to be as much thorough as they can be and we should endeavor to introduce our personal style and to leave our unique "footprints". As far as I am concerned Bigdaddy has already achieved that in this excellent article and all the rest is useless talking ...--Yannismarou 19:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] climate change

Regarding the following:

climate change[1]

The link is to the "Center for Carbon Dioxode and Climate Change" based in Arizona. According to Sourcewatch [2] "The Center has links to the fossil fuel industry, both through personnel and funding" - it is not a reliable source, just one of many industry-funded groups out to discredit climate change. In the bigger picture, the issue of climate change and history is highly controversial, since this is a history article, it would be appropriate to use sources from historians, in particular historians who work at or publish through the mainstream historical bodies, such as Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, etc.. there is an lot of "junk science" out there. -- Stbalbach 18:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

More info about the source. [3].

All aspects of climate change and its predicted effects - from melting ice caps to species extinction, to more severe weather - are criticized by the Center and either refuted or presented as beneficial. Fred Palmer, head of Western Fuels, said about the center: "The Center's viewpoint is a needed antidote to the misleading and usually erroneous scientific claims emanating from the Federal scientific establishment and adopted by leading politicians, such as Vice President Al Gore."

-- Stbalbach 18:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The page I linked to summarizes research published in mainstream scientific journals. You’re not even claiming CO2 Science misrepresents the research they summarize. I don’t know or care where they get their money from. The idea of looking at a site's budget before looking at it’s content strikes me as a bit bizarre. Am I to understand that Sourcewatch is your idea of reliable source? It’s certainly a very partisan site. I suspect it may not even be written by professional historians! Where do they get their money from, anyway?Kauffner 20:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
the effects of climate on civilizations in the medieval period is very controversial and you will find evidence and arguments on both sides of the debate in the historical community, there is no consensus on it. Climate scientists are quick to point to what they know best (climate) as an explanation, but how much do climate scientists know about other historical forces? And to really have a convincing argument, you need a book-length treatment. Also see Wikipedia:Reliable sources for what reliable source means. "Do the sources have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report?" - in the case of co2science.org, yes. Sourcewatch or Exxonsources are not being used a source in Wikipedia, but for the purposes of determining if co2watch is a reliable source which is fine, unless you have evidence that Exxonsecrets has a history of lying and can't be trusted on even basic black and white facts like a direct quote from Fred Palmer. -- Stbalbach 22:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

None of this really matters - discussion of such a topic is out of place on such a specific article. Take it somewhere else if you must include it. Adam Bishop 06:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This is an interesting topic, but I'd have to agree with adam that it doesn't really fit here. Still, if you want to connect climate change with the evolution of the Byzantine Empire, the best place to do so would be at the Byzantine Empire article. Bigdaddy1204 10:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

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