Talk:Manfred von Richthofen

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/Archive1

Contents

[edit] Propaganda: The Hebrew Influence on Western civilization

Wow, our fears have been confirmed immediately. The first sentence of this books preface says it all in terms of "reliable sources". The first sentence in the book states "This book is a book of propaganda." It goes on to say in the same paragraph "The pagans for whom this volume is meant are the many, many people in whose midst the Hebrews have lived for thousands of years." (pg vii)

"propaganda" meant for "pagans", great source!

Now onto the specific quote/source in dispute. BTW, anon, there is no p. 744 in the book, and you even say it was in New York "philosophical library" hardly then is it a historical work. The book does not say MVR was jewish despite constantly naming other people as "jewish" or saying they had "jewish fathers or mothers". Thus, the omition of specifically stating that MvR and his brother were jews sticks out quite sharply! Also, the book has all of these figures for the percentage of jews in this or that country and then has the exact composition of jews for their respecitve armed services, yet it gives no source or any evidence for this "progaganda". The Bib only has "hebrew" based books, no census data or anything else that would indicate being able to provide such data, even if such data (rumanian, etc) even existed in the first place. The jews always represent a higher percentage in every country's military, including the USA civil war, then their respective percentages in that country, and the very paragraph with the MvR comment starts, as Mackensen said, with the claim that 200 fliers in the tiny German air force in WWI were jews, again with no evidence. It has endless, no proof, fantastical claims ("the youngest german volunteers were all jewish lads" (pg 265) which appear dramatically inflated if not outright fictitious. As the book clearly says, and in light of the fact it was written soon after the holocaust, "this book is a book of propaganda." (pg vii) 'Nuff said! JohnHistory 22:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

Here's another source claiming Jewish ancestry for the Red Baron: "The Jews of Germany: A Story of Sixteen Centuries", by Marvin Lowenthal. Page 285 says "Baron Manfred von Richthofen, the red eagle of the German aviators, when he fell bled Jewish blood from his veins." (it is easy to find this by Google books). This may or may not be true; to refute this, it would be easiest if you could cite from reliable sources that his ancestors were not Jewish. Whether it be true or not, it is verifiable that people claimed a Jewish ancestry for MvR; and this is all that has been claimed here. Kusma (talk) 20:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Kusma, for bringing up that second source. In my opinion, we should re-insert the fact that the claim of Jewish ancestry has been made, in agreement with Wp:npov#A_simple_formulation. This in no way contradicts the undue weight clause that has been brought up, as we do not deduct and justify a viewpoint from the sources. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 23:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that "Undue Weight" was not a reflection of the source per say but rather of whether or not the opinion put forth by that source is held by a number of people significant enough to warrant mentioning, and that whether the sources are reliable or whatnot is a separate consideration. For example: Scholar A publishes a paper that puts forth Theory x, Theory x is in fact true but goes contrary to commonly held theories. According to "Undue Weight" Theory x is inadmissible to WP until other independent, reference-able sources also claim Theory x.
Another way to look at it would be in reference to Palaeontology: When the idea that dinosaurs were warm blooded was first put forth the idea was met with much skepticism and was only held by "an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority" and therefore would not have qualified as satisfying the Undue Weight policy. However as more research was done and the idea gained more and more acceptance, a lot more material referencing it became available and at that point it did satisfy Undue weight, and as such is definitely permissible in WP. In fact it has become the consensus view as referenced here, and here.
So it seems to me that Undue weight is not satisfied by the quality of a single reference but by whether the opinion or theory in question is held by enough people to count as "A significant minority".
Now whether these two references are enough to satisfy Undue weight is a more difficult problem. I personally feel that considering the vast amount of biographical data on MvR more than just two references should be provided. As a separate issue from Undue Weight I also feel that considering neither source actually says why they believe MvR was Jewish, along with not pointing out which of his ancestors (who have been thoroughly documented) were Jewish, makes me personally unable to endorse them. However as I am no expert on this issue I will not emphatically deny them either.
I would also like to point out that I have refrained from editing this article so far and plan to continue doing so until this particular point of contention has been resolved in a peaceful and scholarly manner. Thanks, Colincbn 10:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to you also, I'm glad we're finally back to exchanging arguments.
As to your point regarding undue weight: I still say it's a point, but I'm not convinced as to the applicability of undue weight in this case. NPOV talks about "conflicting viewpoints". Clawson used this line of reasoning and argued correspondingly that for undue weight to be relevant, there would have to be published sources expressly contradicting the contested assertion we're having two sources for.
Now, I don't feel all comfortable with that reasoning, as it may apply to unambiguous situations as well. Imagine, as a hypothetical example, a situation where someone wants to include mention of a source that speaks of/makes a claim so wild in nature that no serious published source ever bothered to even assert the opposite. In that case, undue weight still does come into play, based on the common sense assumption that the fact that a vast majority (as presumed for the example) doesn't mention anything as to the nature of that claim can safely be interpreted as a strong argument against the vailidity of said claim. Imagine, if you will, two sources saying that mars men, if there was life on mars, would have orange skin. You'd have a hard time rebutting a claim like that based on reliable sources that say the opposite.
I believe this case here is different. There is a range of reliable sources speaking of Jews in the German army during WWI and WWII, and in my opinion it's safe to say that the claim as to partly Jewish ancestry of one (particularly famous) German military man is not in any way absurd per se. So undue weight is in my opinion not as applicable here as it is in my hypothetical example. That's why and how I argue for the inclusion of this source.
To be clear about this: NPOV dictates that assertions of any one source must be made recognizable from the text of the article as claims that source made. One could never write "Pete Sampras was widely recognized as the greatest tennis player of all time", giving a source that says exactly this. You would still have to write s.th. like "Author X mentioned in publication Y that Pete Sampras was being widely [...]", and that's what we're going to do, unless someone can demonstrate that this view has been adopted as the normative paradigm within the academic society. But as it is, there seems to be no normative paradigm as to the ancestry of Richthofen, so undue weight is not applicable. In my opinion.
—KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 23:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes I see your point. The more I think about it the more I come to feel that since the claim is made there is no pressing reason not to include it in the article. The fact is we have two separate independent sources both making the same basic assertion. As long as by reading the article it is clear that this view has only been put forth by a small number of people then it is acceptable from what I can see. Of course if anyone disagrees then they can find sources to dispute and in doing so possibly prove this is a "fringe" belief, at which point it would have to be considered again whether to remove the section under "Undue Weight". But until that happens I see no real problem with including the references. I would hope that any mention of them states the fact that neither source backs up the claim with genealogical data, but since we are not judging the value of the sources, but rather the fact that they are making this claim, then it is most likely appropriate to include them. Colincbn 00:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree. Good idea also about the lack of genealogical data, that should be mentioned, as it doesn't amount to an OR/POV interpretation/judgement of the source. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 00:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is now getting ridiculous

As so often happens with Wikipedia, the essential subject matter rapidly becomes secondary as posters wish to score a succession of political or idealogical points over others. The above comments and discussion now has little to do with von Richtofen and the thread should be stopped; there are other places for such debate- certainly not here, gentlemen. Thank you Harryurz 21:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Two sources have been brought up concerning the contested mentioning of claims of Jewish ancestry of Richthofen. Do you mind if we use this article talk page to discuss a proposed addition to the article here? —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kusma and Harryurz

You are right. We shall not allow to bunch of racists to hijack wiki. Kusma, thank you for your search. Racists will deny everything what is not fit them, they moved by hate, no facts. I do not know how Wiki works the adminstrationwise but information you have now in two books shall be entered to the wiki article. Can you please reach serious editors of wiki if there are some. Meanwhile, who was a politician who had Jewish grandmother? Was it Harmann von Richthoven? Can you please cite your source? There was another line of Richthovens you can see in the family website whose member married a lady with last name Mendelssohn, I guess she was related to the great composer. It looks that Richthovens were very liberal, at least in choice of their wives.User:Tracadero.25 March 2007 (What UTC stands for?)

Tracadero - UTC stands for Coordinated Universal Time, also known as Zulu time or Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). Also, if you're not aware, it's a good idea to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~) - it'll save you some time, and you won't have to worry about UTC. :) --Mary quite contrary (hai?) 22:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Mary, where shall I look for insruction how to sign? Tracadero.

Tracadero - type in four tildes, like this: ~~~~ after your post and you won't have to write your name or anything. On English keyboards, the tilde is typically the upper character on the key above the Tab key/left of the 1 key (but this is not always the case). For more info, check out WP:SIG. Thanks! --Mary quite contrary (hai?) 23:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archive?

In an effort to clear away some of the bad blood here and bring the multiple threads containing the same discussion to a single place, in addition to the fact that this page has become quite long. would it be acceptable to archive this page and continue with a clean one? Colincbn 10:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. If you do it, I suggest leaving the most recent three or four threads here (those with actual discussion in them) and moving the rest to an archive page. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 16:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Done :) —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 00:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I was not sure how to do it so I appreciate you taking the lead on this one. Colincbn 00:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not 2 sources.

I already said, which some people have overlooked, the first source "The Hebrew Impact on Western Civilization" does not state that MvR was Jewish. I own said book, it names in that section many jews however obscure and even goes so far as to specifiy jewish parents in case of people who are half jewish. Yet, all it says for MvR is that "he would have been liquidated as non-aryan". Again, non-aryan could, especially for an Eastern German (Prussian) could mean part slavic, etc. Also, If you read the book, you would see this vagueness actually sticks for not specifically saying he was Jewish. Again, the book also blatently states in the first sentence that it is a "book of propaganda" (vii) and it is.

BTW, The other source given above appears really shady and strange as far as a source/quote for such a claim, don't you think? It sounds almost like more propaganda, but I would have to see it to be sure. From, The Jews of Germany: A Story of Sixteen Centuries." "Baron Manfred von Richthofen, the red eagle of the German aviators, when he fell bled Jewish blood from his veins.", again not even a bio and strange quotation for citing jewish ancestry at the very least. BTW, However, it actually would be the only actual claim of "Jewish blood" so far shown here.

So, at least this first "propaganda source" really can't even count as a source for Jewish ancestry. Not to mention, the myriad of other problems with such claim of undue weight, and with no ancestors name despite an extensive family tree and many bios.


P.S. This article still has not been cleaned up and is full of wrong information. It says MvR served under the Russian command of alexander the III. Alexander the III died when MvR was 2 years old! Where are the Admins?? kncyu38, etc, On vacation? JohnHistory 00:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

Not on vacation, just look above. As to your argument of "non-Aryan" wording: please do not deliberately misinterpret valid arguments. Regarding the inacurracies you are perceiving: Just go ahead. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
And please stop editing your comments, use the Preview button instead. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 00:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I indented it, which is what you advised earlier. Don't misinterpret my argument, nor accuse me of delibately misinterpeting anything. I do not have the time to respond to all of this nonsense with you kncyu38, please focus on task at hand and we can move forward together. Good bye. JohnHistory 00:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory


Not on vacation clearly, yet nothing has been cleaned up? Can there be some kind of accountability here? JohnHistory 00:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory
Accountability? —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Kncyu38/Kusma. How it happened that racists JohnHistory vandalized article about Jewish origin of MvR. Regarding his point of propaganda: propaganda is legitimate when it based on facts, but the racist know only the lie; for them facts do not exist, for them propaganda is a tool to mislead not a way to make people aware. So two publications in time of marked by rise and fall of NAZISM, make a point that if Nazis will follow their standards they have to eliminate even the most acclaimed German WWII hero because he had Jewish ancestors. Is it legitimate point? It would be stupid for respectable authors to claim Jewish origin of such well known person as the Red Baron. They would discredit their work. The fact was stated in two well know books which were published almost twenty years apart and nobody refuted it in other publications! There were many of JohnHistory in that time to tear authors of such claim apart. 8:39, 27 March 2007 User:Sonico255. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.74.114.239 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

First off, please refrain from making personal attacks. Your point will be taken even more kindly without any finger-pointing. Secondly, I agree that the term propaganda has garnered a consistently pejorative connotation which isn't always faithful to its true meaning in different contexts (such as educational advertising). And yes, the dates of the sources mean that other authors could and probably would have replied to the claims of non-Aryan ancestry, and it's also a proper conclusion that a respected publisher like Ziff wouldn't lightly have made such a claim out of the blue. (Still, Richthofen was a WW"I" hero, if you want to call someone a "hero" whose primary skill it was to shoot other people.) —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 23:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

So, repare the article! MvR mixed ancestry was not an exception among German aristocracy. Here is a testimony of another aristocrat, Herwarth von Bittenfeld, who was the first German ambassador to the UK after the WWII (see an article about him in Wiki). In 1939, during the invasion of Poland he served in the elite First Cavalry Regiment where aristocrats traditionally filled officers ranks according to their family traditions. The all three platoon commanders of the Third Squadron, where he served, were of Jewish extraction. Von Herwarth himselves, Count Friedrich Solms and Baron Egbert von Schmidt-Pauli. Von Herwarth, Against Two Evils, p. 170. Of course, they were not Jews but old German nobility that intermarried with Germanized Jews. Sonico255. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.75.32.22 (talk • contribs) 03:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm on it. And, this goes to you and everybody else who doesn't know it yet: Please do not edit your own comments (not to mention those of anybody else) unless you posted them very recently, they haven't been answered yet and you feel you have to clarify something. There's a vast difference between the technical possibilities of editing and the code of conduct we are all to adhere to for the sake of linear, unambiguous communication: When I reply (among other things) to your mistakenly writing MvR was a "WWII" hero, and you alter your comment to "WWI" after I replied, my comment won't make any sense to someone who is reading the current version of the page (=following our exchange in a linear fashion). —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 12:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contested paragraph reinstated. Please comment below.

I have reinstated an extended variant of the paragraph including both sources. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 13:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pandora's Box Opened

Well you've opened pandora's box by adding "propaganda" as a source here. I have already shown the quote and page in the book (the first sentence) that states "This book, is a book of propaganda" (pg vii) There is no real difference between this sort of propaganda, from a Zionist/Jewish slant, and other propaganda such as the Mein Kampf, Klu Kulx Klan, NAZI's, Aryan whatever groups not to mention a host of other propaganda sources, when it comes down to scholarship. If you start using propaganda for historical figure claims, Wiki is doomed. Well, I and others have shown their views and sited policy to avoid this on many different levels, but Kncyu3 is determined despite saying he didn't care, and the fact that Colincbn's cited Jimbo policy of undue weight, and small minority. that kncyu38 said he agreed with earlier, that calls for it's deletion, hasn't changed at all in terms of its direct applicability in this case. Kncyu38 says there is no excepted paradigm for Richtofen, he obviously then hasn't looked at at the extensive Richtofen family tree with no jewish relatives identifiable on it. Nor then have you picked up any of his many biographies that all claim him to be a German Christian. Time will judge me and others right, and this article now trashed. BTW, it hasn't even been corrected in terms of the vandal who changed his service to a dead Russian Czar, etc. Well, I guess even propaganda is now acceptable to pass the undue weight and significant minority Wiki policy? I guess next you could add mein kampf as a source for the Jewish page? This is so ridiculous, it's allmost funny. Now, back to my life! JohnHistory 16:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

Look above for several good arguments why the term propaganda may be misleading. Any further changes, especially to the contested paragraph, will please be discussed here first. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that despite all of this debate and rancor, the fact that only these two quotes could be found (both of which are in old books that are not even about MvR, one of which is vague and states itself to be propaganda), despite all of the Bios and shows on the Baron, says alot! If this doesn't fall under "undue weight, and small minority" nothing does! I think that is plain for everyone to see. BTW, I own this book. This book written soon after the holocaust is most definately propaganda, the fact that the first sentence in it says as much, makes a debate over it quite silly. The book definatelly does, after reading it, have an agenda and bias in making a German War hero like MvR "non-aryan". That suites its propaganda purpose perfectly. Again, propaganda without any evidence is just bad, bad, bad in terms of a source to change a major historical figures ethnicity. I agree with colincbn, at least a couple good sources such as Bios on MvR are what is needed to provide such data for inclusion. BTW, deleting my addition of saying that the source claims to be propaganda, and taking the quote out of the citation is misleading to readers. I do hope that is not your objective. Again, Jimbo says "it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article)." If you want you could add it to an ancillary article, but otherwise, its a violation of Wiki Policy and just bad schoalrship in general for the many reasons I and others have already stated. JohnHistory 17:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

When making edits, while throwing out Wiki guidelines for undue weight and small minority, that include self-declared propaganda, please tell the reader as much in order to avoid being a propagandist yourself. JohnHistory 17:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

Wikipedia has a great article about propaganda. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
It contains, for example, one quote from Edward L. Bernays: "The only difference between ‘propaganda’ and ‘education,’ really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don’t believe in is propaganda." The word "propaganda" (as pointed out above) didn't always have the largely pejorative connotations it has today. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 17:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Please Kncyu38 be civil, I fell that you are the one who is not listening, not me as you just said on my talk page. I address the arguments logically while you appear to miss most of them completely. You have missed all of my points, not to mention my opening paragraph to the earlier thread where I cite evidence from the book, along with others of this source being propaganda and saying it outright. The Wiki page on propaganda is not needed for me, because unlike you, I own said book in question. As it says, it "is a book of propaganda... meant for "pagans". I can only assume these pagans are westerners, and or more specifically Germans, and that it indeed means what it says when it says it is "propaganda" (vii). Thus, despite a whole family tree, a vague statement such as "non-aryan", which, mind you, is the only sentence in the book dealing with MvR, is made because that would upset the pagans, i.e. the Germans, and claim an influential war hero for the jews who are, right after the holocaust, in need of military heros and the propaganda (even in a good sense I suppose) to bolster themselves and Israel, after one war already, for the upcoming wars it would soon face after this book was published. Thus, this book clearly is "propaganda" (pg vii) and has a clear agenda, and thus a clear bias, as all innacurate propaganda does. I mean this is the lowest possible caliber pseudo-source for such a claim about MvR. I can't think of any other source that would have as much bias for such a claim as this one. Because of that no one has been able to produce any ancestor (you can read German, there's a whole family tree available, but no one could find said ancestor despite trying hard) yet alone even a single Bio corroborating it. Thus this claim has the highest degree of undue weight imaginable. But, that's OK, you can have responsibility for adding propaganda as a source to the MvR article without even so much as telling readers about it, and violating "Jimbo Wiki Guidelines" of "undue weight' and "extremely smal minority" claims, and going against the general consensus arrived at here earlier in the archive page to take it out by the majority people (including you) before the vandal struck and I left, but you have no excuse at this point to justify it. JohnHistory 18:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory
Also, please do not try to own this article Kncyu38. JohnHistory 18:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory
BTW, many Palestinian groups cite aryan nation groups who make claims of various U.S. government officials being jewish who are definately not jewish, such as George Tenet. By your logic, and the example you have set here for editors, those people, such as George Tenet, despite eveything to the contrary should have comments in their Wiki articles about their alleged jewish ancestry with links to propaganda sources that are extreme minoritys in their view. Afterall, that is exactly what you are doing here at the MvR article. At least said groups would actually stake a direct claim. JohnHistory 19:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

Kncyu38. Thank you for change, You made very good point. The authors said about part Jewish origin of MvR but do not provide genealogical information. JohnHistory made impression without a personal attack on him, of very confused person (if he is not a racist). He has no clue what he is speaking about and cannot differentiate between information that can be treated seriously and claims that obviously bogus. You ask me question why I call MvR a hero? From purely military point of view he was. Does he deserve admiration? Not. Does he deserve respect for his bravery, yes because the Germans of the WWI still were a civilized nation; he did not fight for some evil case. I am afraid to think what would happen with him if he would survive the war. Will he became a Nazi? The Nazis And there were enough Germans of some Jewish ancestry to serve the Nazis. It is enough to mention Field Marshals Milch, Mainstein, their equivalent in the Navy's rank Friedeburg. Would MvR be more noble man then they were? Would he do what another war hero Goring did? So, it was perhaps "good" that he was killed. User: Sonico. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 20:30, 28 March 2007 (talk • contribs) 68.74.68.102.

The previous unsigned comment is by the guy who vandalized this whole article, and violated all civil guidelines calling people names like "scum, dregg", and signing other people's names and editing over peoples posts, falsey slandering and making false accusations about me. This anon who is too afraid to even sign his name to what he writes. Congratulations Kncyu38, the vandal is definately your friend and of course, a friend of this propaganda for some reason? Why hasn't this vandal been blocked like you said or the article restored? 'Nuff said. JohnHistory 21:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory
This anon vandal added, along with the propaganda about "non-aryan" what have you, a whole host of other false claims, such as MvR serving under Alexander the III, who like I mentioned earlier was dead when MvR turned 2 years old. Not to mention, Alexander the III was Russian, MvR was German of course. How can this have been ignored for so long? JohnHistory 21:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

The IP is not a vandal. The credit for mentioning the missing genealogical backup goes to Colincbn and for the Lowenthal source to Kusma. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 01:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

John, again, if you see something in the article that's clearly wrong and you have sources to back that up, just go ahead. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 01:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
And, while we're at it and I finally got my way, on a more personal note: You were right all along: We are all conspiring against you. Chris, Ryan, Kusma, Mary, Colin, the IP vandal and me. Our secret mission is to destroy Wikipedia articles on WWI flying aces. You got that right. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 01:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda Does not Satisfy Undue Weight nor Tiny Minority Jimbo Guidelines I never thought anyone was conspiring against me other then you, which you know you were Kncyu38. The reason was never the article, it was your desire to attack me. The fact is you have gone against the advice pf so many people here. You know what, I own the text. By adding propaganda, and going against the very small minority logic and guidelines you invalidate Wiki as a scholary entity. Congratulations, the article has been flushed down the toilet. I am going to at least try to clarify it and not let the readers get beguiled by propaganda that "some" try to pass off as though it was a legitimate source. Which is of course misleading. It must at least be stated in the article. JohnHistory 18:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

You haven't addressed any of the real issues here. You miss all of the points kncyu38. "BTW, many Palestinian groups cite aryan nation groups who make claims of various U.S. government officials being jewish who are definately not jewish, such as George Tenet. By your logic, and the example you have set here for editors, those people, such as George Tenet, despite eveything to the contrary should have comments in their Wiki articles about their alleged jewish ancestry with links to propaganda sources that are extreme minoritys in their view. Afterall, that is exactly what you are doing here at the MvR article. At least said groups would actually stake a direct claim"

Again, with the guidelines in place, and propaganda as the source (isn't it suspisicous that not one bio has been found to back this up? Despite all of the interest only these two Hebrew books, one of which is 100% verified propaganda (it says so itself) and the other sounds like propaganda "When he fell bled Jewish blood from his veins." neither of which are even about MvR, and both of which were written during difficult periods of German/Jewish relations in the latter case during the Nazi reign with jewish expulsions and persecution, and the former just a few years after the holocaust. I would think with all your new-found interest in this article kncyu38, you would be able to show the reasoning skills to see through such gunk. I guess not. Again, I refer you to Colinicbn's statement before you ignored it and reverted, where he states that for MvR at least 2 bios or equivalent should be found to corroboarate such a claim in order to have it follow policy for inclusion in the article, and not some other associated page. Why has not even 1 been found then? Where is this jewish person on the Richtofen family tree stretching back into the abyss of time? Kncyu38, you have let propagandists write the history for this Wikipedia article! You have ignored all basic sholarly practices, you have pursued a selficious feud against me here for personal reasons, and in doing so you have let this article be trashed and you have violated it yourself. You have seriously hurt the credibility of Wikipedia. I hope some day some one can clean up the foolish mess. y JohnHistory 19:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

again, a good source (one that isn't propaganda) would say something like the following fictious claim; "Adrianna schwartz, a jewish lady from Vienna, married Vernon von richtofen in 1877. They had 3 children together, Gunther was the oldest and grandfather of MvR." a bad source (probably propaganda) would say something like the following which is your only quote and thus only source for the claim of MvR being jewish; "When he fell bled Jewish blood from his veins." I think any serious person can see what I mean here. In addition, your other quote where Mvr is stated to be "non-aryan" (for that book, not blatantly saying he was jewish is a striking omition despite whatever you have implied from this), is pure progaganda, I have already proven that above, not to mention it claims to be propaganda in the first sentence and it fulfills this pledge thoughout the book.

Btw, I doubt many people have read these books, as they are curtailled as propaganda for a limited audience. Thus, it is unlikley that anyone whould specifically refute such claim. However, the omition of said claim in all MvR Bios is a dispute in its own right to such a claim, and thus the policy of a small minoirty, and undue weight was born in order to keep such tiny, unfounded (and propaganda) claims out of scholarily articles here. Jimbo would be rolling around in his bed right now if he could see your logic, or lack of it I should say! JohnHistory 19:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)johnHistory

BTW, anyone who has monitored this article and or read the talk page know the amazing level of restraint I have shown Here when it comes to making edits. Despite reaching a consensus, despite the overwhelmingly reasonable approach, the sound logic provided, the fact that I bought this book and was able to bring light to it, as no one before even bothered to mention the first sentence in the book stating itself to be propaganda, and all of it's wild claims., despite being slandered and called scum , etc , etc despite all of this I have shown great restraint in editing. I only wish you kncuy38 could show one tenth of my discipline and consideration before making so many edits yourself. You have gone against consensus, you have gone against logic, you have side stepped the many reasonable issues brought up, and you even said that you don't care about this article, yet you go with the grain and tell me to "take it out" then you put it in again with no reason, then you edit again and again, you do whatever you feel like. You have failed to logcailly explain yourself, and you have contradicted yourself more times then I could write (you said earlier the undue weight was a good argument, then you totally changed your mind. Why? b/c one of the sources was shown to be outright propaganda (probably both of them are based on the latters quote) so now the undue weight and tiny minority principles don't count??? That makes zero sense. In fact, they those policies count x100 more now because of that!!! Please be more considerate of the issues here, and the violation of wiki guidelines, not to mention the pusing of obvious porpaganda, and masqerading it around like a legitimate source. What is the purpose of that? For you it is to continue your feud with me (remember you said don't even care about the article) , but in the process you are misleading innocent readers! JohnHistory 19:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

[edit] Third Opinion

Whether it might be true or not, it is still claimed that MvR is Jewish. I believe that this should still be included into the article, but have something saying that this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. There's something to be said about two historians claiming his Semitic ancestry. bibliomaniac15 20:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I would refer you to the archive Talk Page. The fact is that of these two people you mention as "Historians" (I will have check into that claim too. In fact, the fisrt book "Hebrew Influence..." was found by the other editor in the "Philosophical Section of New York Public Library), only one directly claims MvR had "Jewish blood". However, the source in this case, apparently found on google books, only quote that mentions any semitic connection with the Red Barron does so in this single quote "Baron Manfred von Richthofen, the red eagle of the German aviators, when he fell bled Jewish blood from his veins." I think this quote is really bad in terms of using it alone or its inclusion in terms of us trying to honestly follow Jimbo guidelines and just basic scholarship. It really doesn't sound respectable. Why not mention a jewish relative? , This "historian" making such a claim about a German national hero at such a charged time as the mid 1930's. Without getting into the whole archived discussion with you about the extensives Richtofen Family Tree that shows no Jewish relative, nor does a single out of many mvR Biographey which would truthfully, not only the best source for such a claim of ancestory of course, but also quite possibly the only respectable source for a major historical figure's ancestry. As others said, two bios, right or wrong, is really the minimum for including a claim like this one in this case. No matter how you fall on this propaganda, they clearly don't meet this criteria. Most importantly, as I said earlier, the first book, that I have reviewed personally, is a work of propaganda published shortly after the Holocaust (which agian is above and provide blatant proof and examples of this). The second one that I discussed above, was published during a very heated time in Germany for Jews, the mid 1930's, and was specifically titled "The Jews of Germany..." Both books have a clear, definate agenda in making MvR in the one case "Non-aryan" whatever that means specifically is impossible to say, people choose to imply, and in the other source's case, it implies, not through any clear focus on ancestory as would be needed, but instead on the quote provied that MvR bleed "jewish blood" when he died for Germany. Again, though I do not own the latter book (does anyone?) I would say making such a claim as that of MvR, a German national hero (who everyone shown to be related to is Christian), dying for Germany in WII was bleeding "Jewish blood" for Germany is again very possibly propaganda in its message with, like the first, no evidence what so ever in such a rich geological record. If you want, include it in a associated page as Jimbo Guidelines state, but unfortunately it doesn't qulaify to be in the main aritcle as such. Thanks, and have a good-day. JohnHistory 21:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory
We can't be including propaganda as sources, and we can't be throwing out the Jimbo Guidelines! that all this boils down to folks! JohnHistory 21:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

bibliomaniac, does that mean you agree with the current wording? In my opinion, mentioning the fact that neither of the sources "yields genealogical data" is saying that this has to be taken with a "grain of salt". Or should we change it somehow? —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 09:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

JohnHistory makes an impression of a mentally ill obsessive person, Without being offensive I can conclude. By an accident I read about another famous German pilot of similar to MvR background. Ehrenfried Gunther Baron(Freiherrn) von Hunefeld (1892-29). Made first transatlantic northern flight. A Prussian noble "den Judenstammling." Siegmund Kaznelson, ed., Juden im deutschen kulturbereich, Berlin, 1959, So, MvR was in a good company of German nobility with some Jewish descent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.74.147.102 (talk • contribs).

I'm agreeing with Kncyu38's wording. We're not concluding that it's a fact, and we are not endorsing it, as the quality of the sources is questionable. Also, don't attack JohnHistory, 68.74.147.102. bibliomaniac15 20:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
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