Talk:Malayalam language

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[edit] Earliest mention of Malayal(am) outside India

The Garaman inscription of 1053 A.D. also adds to the list the name Malyala (the Malayala-speaking region of the Malabar coast).

http://ismaili.net/Source/0104c.html

This should be incorporated in the article because by 1053 merchants from present day Kerala are self identifying them as Malayala to foreigners. RaveenS 22:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Malayalam is the same when spelt in reverse! - It comes from the Tamil word, malai means mountain and aali means person or aal. - The people who spoke Tamil in the mountainous Tamil country called Chera naadu, (Western Ghats) were called Malai aali later Malayali and the language Malayalam.

The great Tamil poet Bharathidasan said "Even though you(Tamil) gave birth to other languages like Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam, you are still virgin and virile" Tamil hymns are recited in Tirumala Temple (the richest in the country) and other temples along with Sanskrit ones, and I have heard them too. Is there a single Malayalam hymn, which is recited at Tirumala?

The very word Tirumala is a Tamil word. Kannada came from the Tamil word.. Kanivu, meaning mellifluous. Telugu came from Tamil word, Thella, meaning clear and sweet. Malayalam came from Tamil word, Malai meaning mountain and aali meaning person.. Persons living in mountainous region (namely, Western Ghats.).. Another word is Arivaali (meaning person with arivu or intelligence.

Tamil is the only language which has its own word for Veda.. Marai. --209.212.28.18 14:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC) Malayalam lover

[edit] Differences between Malayalam and Tamil

What are the differences between Malayalam and Tamil?

I speak Tamil (natively) and Telugu but not Malayalam.

That's too little to ask and too much to answer. They are obviously two different languages, though they have common roots. Malayalam is believed to have developed from a dialect of Tamil called Koduntamil or Malaithamil (literally Tamil of the mountains), spoken by the people around the hilly ranges bordering Kerala and Tamil Nadu states. But like other Dravidian languages, and unlike Tamil, it has borrowed heavily from the Brahmic script. Unlike Tamil, it has conjunct consonants and aspirated and voiced stops. For example, it has four gutturals, four nasals and so on (each pronounced with varying degrees of stress.) Malayalam is believed to have matured sometime around 16th century as a distinct language with the advent of people like Thunjathu Ezhuthachan (who incidentally authored Srimad Bhagavatam - the ballad sung in praise of Vishnu in his 10 avatars. It is more influenced by Sanskrit than any other Dravidian language. Malayalam is the only language in the world apart from Tamil to share the retroflex rzh sound. (Marathi coming close with the hard la). That's as much as I can say from my limited knowledge. Chancemill 17:00, May 17, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Malayalam developed an identity distinct from Tamil around the 13th to 14th centuries. The Namboothiris were influential in the development of Malayalam as a distinct language, and also the Sanskrit influence in Malayalam. Compared to Tamil, Malayalam has a larger phoneme set. In addition, Malayalam has a number of arabic, Chinese, and pali words. An interesting thing to note is that the Arabic word for Chair (kursi), and the Malayalam word for chair (kasera) are rather similar. They both possess the same set of consonants in the triconsonantal root (krs and ksr). However, it may be a false cognate. I'm just hypothesizing :). Sanksrit's influence in Malayalam is evident from the large number of Sanskrit and Indo-European words. For example, compare the Malayalam words for orange (narenga), table (mesha), and soul (atma) to the Spanish words for the same (naranja, mesa, and alma). This is definitely due to Namboothiri influence. Malayalam is the closest in similarity to Tamil, and actually has the least Sanksrit influence. Telugu and Kannada are also related to Tamil, but have diverged significantly from it. --Vivin 18:40, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Atma, of course, came to Malayalam from Sanskrit. Spanish and Portuguese being Indo-European languages, their having the same word, Alma, is not surprising. The Malayalam word 'kasera' (chair) came from the Portuguese word 'cadeira' (chair). Mesha came from Portuguese Mesa (table). There are more than 20 words in Malayalam that is of Portuguese origin. They sound so Malayalam-like that many Malayalis would be surprised to hear that they came from Portuguese. {Some examples: Kushini from Cozinha (kitchen), Janal/janala from Janela (window), Pena (pen), Rosa (rose)}

Naranga is said to be an Indian word that went to Europe, (through the Arabs?) and became naranja (pronounced naraanha) in Spanish and Orange in English. Its origin is said to be Sanskrit (Naraganga?) or Tamil (Naran kai?)

I don't understand the statement that Malayalam "actually has the least Sanskrit influence." Could you explain? With the vast number of Sanskrit vocabulary in it, isn't Malayalam the South Indian language with the most Sanskrit influence?

[edit] it was not ezhuthachan

melpathoor narayana bhattathiri, not thunchathezhuthachan, was the author of narayaneeyam. ezhuthachan was one of the pioneers among the writers in modern malayalam language. perhaps his most popular work is adhyatma ramayanam kilippattu. he is also considered as the author of books like bhagavatham kilippattu, mahabharatham kilippattu, irupathinalu vrtham, harinama keerthanam.

[edit] Malayalam in Firefox

Does anyone knows why Malayalam support in Firefox/Win XP is messed up? TIA --Rrjanbiah 05:44, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In MS-Win you have to enable support for complex script.

To do it go to Windows Control panel "Regional and Language Options" > "Languages" check both boxes.

Thanks for your reply. I know, how to enable the language suport in XP and already enabled. But, the issue is with Mozilla Firefox (my pet browser:) ) as the pages are working fine in Internet Explorer. I have posted the issue at the Mozilla forum [1] and probably will add it to the formal bug database sometimes soon. --Rrjanbiah 04:30, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Recent update on the issue: When I posted the issue at news:netscape.public.mozilla.browser few people have responded that for them Firefox is rendering properly. After bit of try, I have found that we need to install ThoolikaUnicode font [2] to see the Malayalam characters in FF. However IE works without ThoolikaUnicode font. Discussion is still going in netscape.public.mozilla.browser --Rrjanbiah 10:22, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Kodum Malayalam

Living in Kerala I never heard about Kodum Malayalam or never studied it at school. Only distinction we hear is proper written-language (Ezhuth Bhasha) or not.

Yes there are slangs, and many of them from north to south of Kerala, or slangs near sea or slangs near hills in the east. Even there are slang that are unknown in 1 mile area or only in a community. But never heard of Kodum Malayalam.

I agree there are people who speak with style or words in Tamil or Tulu. But they are just a mixture of Malayalam and the other language.

A Google search for "Kodum Malayalam" only shows reference to sites which copied it from Wikipedia.

So I am deleting the entry of Kodum Malayalam by 203.101.73.166 (talk • contribs)

If somebody disagree we will have a discussion then change it.

-Bijee 28 June 2005 22:26 (UTC)

As with all Indian langauges, Malaylam too is different amongst different social groups. The Sanskrit content is high amongst the so called upper castes and is the lowest amongst the so called lower castes. Kodum Malayalm is a term used to denote Malayalm with minimal Sanskrit content spoken by these people and tribals. So the view Malayalm is what it is as defined by the elites is not correct.

22:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assistance required at Kalaripayattu

I've just spotted the following in a comment at the top of the Kalaripayattu page:

There is a slight problem with the malayalam spelling. I was unable to get the double pa, It would be great if some one could fix that.

I have got no idea what a double pa is or how to get it, (or even if it has been fixed already), so I would appreciate it if someone who does can fix it. Thanks, Thryduulf 18:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

-- Update: This article is now named Kalarippayattu, with double ppa. However, I noticed a number of problems with Malayalm spellings there. Since the subject is disputed, and since I am not a native writer, I posted my thoughts in the Talk:Kalarippayattu#Spelling section, and I defer on more knowledgeable people to commit the changes. Then remove all this section! Thanks. -- AntoineL 14:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VFDs

Please vote on the following VfDs related to Kerala :

[edit] Removed text

This is the first time I read this article and the following section in general seemed a bit POV. Of concern are the "coming into its own" and "remarkably liberal" parts. Please fix accordingly as you see fit. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 17:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Planning and development

As the language of administration and as the medium of instruction in schools and colleges, Malayalam is coming into its own. A scientific register in the language is slowly evolving. Remarkably liberal in their attitudes, Malayalis have always welcomed other languages to coexist with their own and the interaction of these with Malayalam has helped its development in different respects.

[edit] Promotional Material ?

"In 1999 a group called Rachana Akshara Vedi, led by Chitrajakumar and K.H. Hussein, produced a set of free fonts containing the entire character repertoire of more than 900 glyphs. This was announced and released along with an editor in the same year at Thiruvananthapuram, the capital city of Kerala. In 2004, the fonts were released under the GNU GPL license by Richard Stallman of the Free Software Foundation at the Cochin University of Science and Technology in Kochi, Kerala."

How exactly is this Promotional Material ? Rachana Akshara Vedi has become a cultural icon with regard to the Malayalam script in bringing back the Traditional script. If this work is not acknowledged, then I would suggest that the paragraph above it also be removed (reproduced below):

"Malayalam now consists of 56 letters including 20 long and short vowels and the rest consonants. The earlier style of writing is now substituted with a new style from 1981. This new script reduces the different letters for typeset from 900 to less than 90. This was mainly done to include Malayalam in the keyboards of typewriters and computers."

This is because the paragraph related to "reform" is entirely mistaken in its validity - first of all, the *1967* reform was not fully accepted, and neither was the *1981* reform (in fact the 1981 reform reversed many aspects of the 1967 reform, and Rachana Akshara Vedi's actions are a continuation of that action). All you need is a good camera and some time in any of the cities of Kerala to know this. In fact, if you remove the paragraph citing "promotional material", then you should remove the reform-paragraph as well, since it too is "promotional" not to mention inaccurate, and partisan to one POV.

As far as I can tell, the glyphs of the characters in "Rachana" set fo fonts were not designed by Chitrajakumar and K.H. Hussein, but rather by a TeX enthousiast of Nederland origin, Jeroen Hellingman (could be worth a link, too). This is not to say the Rachana Akṣara Vedi group did nothing here, in fact they did produce the set of fonts (along with the editor), but I consider it would be fair to acknowledge also Jeroen's work; even if he is not a Malayali, this fact should be irrelevant (one can also drop the fact that Jeroen comes from the Nederlands, however). On the other hand, if it was Jeroen that specifically requested him to be left unnamed, this should be recorded in some way (besides history, that is), at least to avoid posts like mine! -- AntoineL 13:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Joeren Hellingman did make a Malayalam font, which was converted by NV Shaji and by others. It is usually distributed by Linux distributions with the name "Malayalam" in their Malayalam font package. The Rachana font (which has about 950+ glyphs, compared to the 100 or so in Hellingman's font) was developed by Rachana Akshara Vedi - R. Chitrajakumar did the original research on the glyph set bu collecting, culling and collating them and their use, and K.H Hussein designing the font face indepedent from R. Chitrajakumar.

[edit] Contributions of Hermann Gundert to Malayalam language in Trivia section !?

I feel that the contributions of Hermann Gundert to malayalam language should be expanded in the artcle and moved to an appropriate section. Sangfroid 13:27, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

added the tags of 'unsourced' & 'not verified to "Language variation and external influence" paragraph Bharatveer 11:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

ABOUT the second trivia, i dont think Gundert was the first person to compile a malayalam dictionary.This needs to rechecked. About the third trivia, malayalam was chosen for wireless communication in the indo pakistan border was not due to the "phonetic complexity" of Malayalam language ; OTOH it may be because the "corps of Signal" of the Indian Army always had a significant number of personnel from kerala. Bharatveer 11:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Added the tag 'citation needed' * Development of literature * Bharatveer 15:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

About "External Influence" I had added the citation needed to the paragraph. It is very clear that there are not sources to back up that statements. So Can i remove those sentences?? Bharatveer 03:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)

Help add input for Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic) --Dangerous-Boy 04:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] -r ending for personal names

Was the statement I made in the "Borrowing words from sanskrit" section about only humans (including legendary sages etc) having the respectful -r endings for their names not true? I've never come across an instance of any other type of being, such as a deity, having a name ending in -r. --Grammatical error 07:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I have seen temple names like "Mahadevar Kshetram".Bharatveer 07:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Really? Perhaps that's archaic usage (carried over from Tamil, in which I believe the -r suffixes are more prolific) preserved in the temple names, because in modern Malayalam it is always Mahadevan and the temple name would be "Mahadeva Kshetram". --Grammatical error 10:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

See these links

Vaikom Temple

Temples

.Bharatveer 11:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for clarifying that. --Grammatical error 17:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of language

I can't find in the article where the name of the language comes from. The similarity between the Malayalam language's name with the "Malay" language's name is interesting, but I guess it's just coincidental. Does the language come from the name of the region (as, for example, the Rajasthani or Punjabi languages), or does it have another meaning? Badagnani 20:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The region used to be called malayalam and the language was malayala bhasha or malayanma, apparently (I forgot where I read this). I have no idea how and why such a ridiculous semantic shift should have taken place, but it did and Keralam came to be used as a name for the land instead.--Grammatical error 06:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It's related to "mountain" [3] Perhaps means "dialect/language of mountains"? See also [4]. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for this enlightenment! Perhaps you experts could add this etymology to the article? Badagnani 08:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What Christian, Muslim, Nambuthiri, dialects?

This sentence from the 'Language variation and external influence' section, "Loan words from English, Syriac, Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Portuguese abound in the Christian dialects and those from Arabic and Urdu in the Muslim dialects", is an exaggeration.

Abound? Dialects?

Muslims use many Arabic words in their speech, but not enough to call it a dialect. Christians' use of Syriac words in everyday speech is a lot less and that too is mostly in the context of religion. The only Greek or Latin words they use are what other Malaylis and people all over the world use, i.e. Greek/Latin-derived scientific terminology. All Malayalis use some Portuguese words in everyday speech and in the case of some Christians here and there, a few more are used. As for English, all Malayalis insert many English words into their day to day Malayalam, without accepting them as Malayalam words. (This lack of acceptance may be because English words sounds too foreign in Malayalam, unlike Portuguese words, which blend into to the language very well.)

As for the Nambuthiri community's usage of higher number of Sanskrit words, I doubt it is enough reason to call the resulting speech or writing a dialect. After all, Malayalam vocabulary is highly Sanskritized.

Malayalam has regional variations and caste based variations. The only religion based variation may be in the case of some (but not all) Muslims in their use of some Arabic words. Using the word dialects for these variations may be a bit too much of a stretch.

[edit] Dravidian tongue?

I am wondering why malayalam has been classed as a Dravidian tongue, since it borrows heavily from Sanskrit, even more than other so called "Indo aryan" languages. In fact malayalam and sanskrit share a very similar grammatical structure and a large proportion of words in malayalam have been directly borrowed from sanskrit. You may say that it has been classed as a dravidian tongue because of the script which has been borrowed from tamil (a dravidian language), then why is Sinhalese, which does not have a devangari script, been classed as an "Indo aryan" language? Kshatriya Grandmaster 22:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is it classed as a Dravidian tongue? Because it is one! The answer could be found in the article. Borrowing vocabulary, lightly or heavily, from another language can't change a language's origin! The assumption in the query that Malayalam's grammatical structure is Sanskrit like, is incorrect. So is the assumption that the response to you would be "that it has been classed as a dravidian tongue because of the script". --Esskay 19:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

That is an interesting point, because Sinhalese script is ideally a Dravidian script, yet it is still classed as an Indo-Aryan language. I guess the work of Nambuthris and Nambyars in Kerala has not been able to sufficiently sanskritize it to make it an Indo-Aryan language! Kshatriya Grandmaster 22:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] need script translation at Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation

Need scripts of malayalam.--D-Boy 18:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

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