Talk:Makuta

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[edit] "Reggae Dancehall Artist/Producer"

OK, I don't know if there really is a reggae guy called "Makuta" or not, but this page is about Bionicle's Makuta. If anybody wants to move the section to a new article, fine, but if it's still here in about a week, I think I'm going to delete it. Drakhan 16:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Why did Makuta turn on his brother?

I think makuta turned on his bro bcause he was jealous or went crazy or somthin.

I was under the impression that he did it to "protect" him from some form of "pain" which may or may not have existed, although it was inferred that the Great Spirit's "pain" was just a rationalization that Makuta used to justify his actions to himself. A secondary motive was that he saw himself as a savior to the Matorans. 66.24.224.205 01:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Makuta did it because he is a meglomaniac who wants to rule the universe and he could not do that with Mata Nui around. When he said he did it to spare him pain he was probably just saying it to get Takanuva to stop fighting him as being the satanic character in the Bionicle universe he is a Grade A liar. Also being a demonic being I don't think he needs self-justification. Admittedly he probably didn't realise the universe would collapse in it on itself but if he did he probably saw some way to manipulate it to his advantage as Makuta seems to anticipate everything.

[edit] Hey Drakhan

Drakhan if you look at this write back . im new. i need some freinds in this site. if you do respond write back at bionicle talk and you should see my user at the bottom. from the TOA OF SOUND!!!

For your benefit, I'm going to tell you that trying to make friends on this site doesn't seem to be such a good idea, as this site is an encyclopedia (of sorts) and not designed to be used as a chatroom for personal discussions. If you were to try to use it as thus, I doubt you would get any replies. (See: what wikipedia is not)

[edit] Pictures

Perhaps there should be some sort of pictures or picture on this page? I was thinking that there should be one of the actual set, one of how Makuta appeared in Mask of Light, and one of how he appeared in the online game.66.24.224.205 19:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

In truth, Makuta have 4 known forms. In Wikipedia images are don't have copyright. This as hard to put in articles Antidermis2319 23:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that pictures are needed, but the problem is that it seems nobody working on the Bionicle pages (me included) knows how to upload the images with all the proper copyright information. I did recently find the proper tags to mark "pictures needed", so I'll go ahead and make a proper request. Drakhan 23:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

OK, there have been a few categories being added and deleted repeatedly to the article and we need to talk this out. Here's my take on the categories:

  • "Fictional demons": Makuta is in no way a demon. Demons don't exist in the Bionicle universe (Lego is trying to avoid anything that has to do with religion).
  • "Fictional immortals": Doubtful. Makuta has a four- or five-figure lifespan, sure, but so does everyone in Bionicle. On top of that, Makuta might be dead even now.
  • "Fictional personifications of evil": I could go either way on this one. He is the "Big Bad" of the storyline, but as someone mentioned on the History page, he does have some redeeming qualities.
  • "Fictional narcissists": I don't think so. Makuta's an egomaniac, sure, but I don't think he's in love with himself.

Anyway, those are my opinions. I'd like to hear what other people think about the categories. Drakhan 17:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, Makuta could fit into the category of Fictional demons as he is a malevolent spirit creature who is the brother of the Great Spirit Mata Nui. Demons are not necessarily a religious connotation as demons at one point feature as the main villains of Power Rangers which is anything but religious. As for Fictional immortals, being immortal just means you live forever [and Makuta has lived far longer than any Matoran], it does not mean you are indestructable, and Makuta may not even be destructable as it has not yet been clarified whether or not he is dead.
Also Makuta is the source of all evil in the Bionicle universe. He has no redeeming features and all that he does is toward his own aggrandizement as far as I can see so he does certainly belong in the category of Fictional personifications of evil.
All in all Drakhan does have some point but in my opinion Makuta does deserve to be in the above categories.
I agree that he does not belong in the category of Fictional narcissists as being an evil mastermind he does have a large ego but I know of more narcissistic villains than he, for instance Count Olaf.
I still fail to see why he has been removed from the category of Fictional shapeshifters.
Might I thank whoever removed that ridiculous Personality section from the Makuta article that said that Makuta appeared to be insane and have a mental problem. I can't picture a being as intelligent as Makuta having a mental disability or suffering from such a mortal ailment as insanity. I would also like to thank the directors of Wikipedia for guarding it against the infidels who seek to turn it into another silly chatroom and for upholding the professional standards I as a regular expect from it.

Hum... I been seen you of compare Makuta for other fictional villans. But they not have connection of Bionicle story form. Drahkan tell in this talk page why Makuta not be categorized in these categories. I report you cause problems in other parts and blocked several times. For you became a contribuitor of Wikipedia, please read the rules and create a account. Thanks. Antidermis2319 20:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I have been blocked a number of times however these have not been my own doing I have been informed. I apologise if I have caused any unintentianal problems in other areas. By the way, when I compared Makuta to other fictional villains I only did it to prove my point.

I shall consider your advice to create an account and in return I hope you shall consider placing Makuta in the categories I requested. By the way thanks whoever put him back in the category of Fictional shapeshifters.

That was me. I noticed it being taken off (again?) today but shapeshifting is one that definitely does apply to Makuta. (I also did a little formatting to make your posts easier to read; I hope you don't mind.)
You make some good points but I still doubt that he's demonic or a personification of evil. One thing that seems to argue against it is that he actually seems to believe that he's one of the good guys - he's convinced himself that the world is better off with him in charge and that he's being merciful to Mata Nui by keeping him asleep. It seems to me that true evil would not only acknowledge how it makes others suffer, but take pleasure in it. Makuta is plenty evil, but not so far gone that he doesn't try to rationalize and justify it.
Some other things to consider is that Makuta really isn't the source of all evil in Bionicle. At the very least, the others in his Brotherhood are as evil as he is; and Karzahni, the Shadowed One and many others didn't need any outside influence to become corrupt. And if anyone's a demon, it should be Karzahni, as he rules the Bionicle "Hell".
By the way, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that "brother of Mata Nui" description; Makuta is not a Great Spirit and is far less powerful than one. He is just called a "brother" because the two used to be close.
I also still question the "immortal" description, though that's less clear. Just because his life started earlier doesn't mean it wouldn't end eventually. Given his special situation (possibly being made of energy), Makuta might very well be immortal, but I'd like some confirmation before we place him in the category. I might go and ask Greg if Makuta is (was?) capable of dying of old age. Drakhan 00:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. You make some good points as well but might I just say that it is yet to be clarified that Makuta considers himself one of the good guys. He may be lying when he says that he is being merciful to Mata Nui. He certainly seemed to take pleasure in his evil in the film Legends of Metru-Nui, chuckling sinisterly and bragging of his villainous ways. As far as I can see he just wants to rule the world so he can boss everyone around. By the way who's Karzahni? I don't think I've heard of that character. Oh by the way I knew Makuta wasn't a Great Spirit I just thought he was a malevolent spirit creature. I suppose he isn't really the source of 'all' evil in the Bionicle universe but he is the source of most of it and seems to be the most powerful dark force in Bionicle. Anyway, these are just my opinions. 4 September 2006

I know you don't particularly like me comparing him to other fictional villains but might I also add that Legend of Zelda are trying to avoid any religious references and yet Ganon, the arch villain in Legend of Zelda is in the category of Fictional demons and Fictional personifications of evil. I would further remind you that Ganon does not appear to be pure evil [or at least, he has a twisted code of honour]. So Makuta is arguably more malign than Ganon. And the way Makuta taunted Takanuva with grim sarcastic humour during their battle in Mangaia, along with the fact that he was about to casually destroy the Matoran [and was chuckling in amusement at the thought] support the idea that he takes pleasure in his villainy and is aware of it. Might I request your permission to install Makuta into the category of Fictional sadists?

Oh, don't worry about comparing Makuta to other villains, I don't have a problem with it. And I admit you're right about how we don't really know whether he believes his own lies, but I don't think he was going to "casually destroy" the Matoran - trap them, bend them to his will, make an example of one or two of them if he has to, but not destroy them all.
Like I said earlier, I don't completely disagree with labeling Makuta as a "fictional personification of evil"; I just wanted to discuss it with the other categories first. I think the main thing that I disagree with in considering Makuta a "demon" is that demons generally have supernatural powers; Makuta has a lot of powers but in the context of Bionicle, they're just as natural as everyone else's.
For Karzahni, there are actually two of them but both only appeared in the books (see the article). The Karzahni I'm referring to is, in Matoran legend, the ruler of a nightmare world where lazy or inefficient Matoran are sent (in comparison to how good workers are sent to "Artakha", the Matoran version of "Heaven").
You don't need my permission to add categories - but to be honest, I strongly disagree with "sadists" too and we'd probably go back and forth adding and deleting it until it gets brought into this discussion anyways. My feeling is that a sadists' entire goal is causing suffering, while Makuta just doesn't care if people suffer in the course of achieving his goals.
And I asked Greg about the immortality issue; he said that Makuta is just has a long lifespan like everyone else (I posted the response to BZPower's Official Greg topic here, it's the 20th post down). Drakhan 01:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, you're probably right about the Matoran thing, that is more Makuta's style. Yes I suppose we should leave the 'personification of evil' category open to discussion before we come to a final solution about it. I was always of the opinion that Makuta had phenomenal powers of evil at his disposal but now that you mention it he isn't particularly supernatural in the Bionicle context, just very adept. You're right about the sadists thing too I suppose. That immortality thing is interesting but Greg probably knows what he's talking about. Thank you for the Karzahni notes, I looked him up. So I think I understand that the deity Karzahni is the Lord of the Underworld, but the plant Karzahni was a monstrous plant [similar to the Morbuzakh but more powerful] that was created by Makuta but got smart enough to wonder why it had to take orders so Makuta disposed of it. I understand that now. Very interesting, I didn't know any of that before. Just out of curiosity, who is more powerful, Karzahni [the deity, not the plant] or Makuta? And is there such a thing as an evil Matoran?

It's really hard to say whether Karzahni or Makuta is more powerful, though Makuta probably has an edge in that he isn't ignorant of the outside world. On a side note, the only ones I consider on the level of dieties are Mata Nui and the Great Beings. And I'd say that Matoran can be evil; we just haven't seen it much as everyone has had to work together to survive most of the time. But this really isn't the place to discuss that sort of thing, we should try to limit stuff to Wikipedia matters; for general Bionicle discussion there are other places like BZPower. Drakhan 23:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. I was just curious. So do you think we should put him in Fictional personifications of evil yet? I'll take your silence as a yes. Don't worry I won't put him in the others.

I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner; it just slipped my mind. If you want to put Makuta in "personifications of evil", I don't have a big problem with it. Drakhan 20:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link

Does anybody know why Bionicle Section 01 Wiki keeps being suspended? Hello, is anybody still there?

I'm sorry, but you really should be asking these questions at BZPower or someplace; Wikipedia discussion should be limited to editing matters. But to answer your question: I don't know, some sort of database or server error or something; they're working on it. Drakhan 21:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh I see. Sorry it's just I wanted to go on the Bionicle Wiki or whatever you call it so I could use it as a reference to my editing, I wasn't aware BXPower was connected to Wikipedia in any way.

One possibily explication as put in BZPower talk page. But I think this information is false.Antidermis2319 18:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category: Fictional Personifications of Evil

Okay, so some people feel Makuta is a "fictional personification of evil", some don't. Please discuss it here instead of just editing the article over and over. Drakhan 23:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah sorry about that. I won't put him in again. Ah, it appears we won't be arguing about that anymore as the category in question appears to have been deleted.

By the way, is there any proof that the Brotherhood of Makuta even exists? Have they appeared in any of the films or books or have any LEGO figures of them been released or are they simply made up by fans. And may I request your permission to install Makuta into the category of Fictional evil geniuses. Because he is fictional, he is evil and he is a genius at making complicated plans!

So far, the Brotherhood itself hasn't been seen. It was first implied near the end of Legends of Metru Nui when Makuta mentions his "brothers" to Vakama. Since then, it has mostly been mentioned in the books, but has also been in the comics once or twice (look at issue 25 here for example).
And you really don't need permission to do things here; go and post it. If someone strongly disagrees, they'll delete it; and if a cycle starts where it's added and deleted repeatedly then a discussion will be started here so people can talk it out. Drakhan 17:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The article says 'he believes himself to be one of the good guys'. Does he? How do we know he isn't lying? I keep changing it to 'he appears to believe himself one of the good guys but somebody keeps changing it back. Hello, is anybody still there?

Sorry about that. I'm afraid I don't have a great answer for you; I just personally don't think he'd spend so much time justifying his actions if he didn't believe those excuses. Most telling, for me, was when he was posing as Nokama: Vakama didn't know who he was and didn't challenge him to explain himself, yet Makuta seemingly rationalized his actions anyway. I don't see why he would do that unless he believed it was the truth. But now that I think about it, you're probably right that including an "apparently" in there somewhere is probably a good idea. Drakhan 17:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
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