Talk:Makhaira

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I am not sure the Xenophon phrase is accented entirely correctly.

[edit] Machaira/ Kopis = Wrong

The passage about the difference between kopis and machaira being the direction of curve is ridiculous as the terms are used interchangeably, and in fact xiphos and machaira are as well. Machaira means knife literally and is used generically to refer to swords along with other types of sharp, bladed instruments. True the sense of machaira as synonymous with kopis is the current usage, but it strays far from classical usage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.15.3.5 (talk • contribs) 23:03, 14 December 2005.

You are absolutely right, and I should have taken care of that long ago (I had already made similar changes at kopis). So at your instigation I went ahead and made some corrections. It still needs more work though. --Iustinus 18:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

hm. I know I'm being a stickler, but even the referenced Xenophon passage suggests the cavalry using the kopis and then proceeds to refer to that same weapon as a machaira. The case for a kopis being a curved sword is a strong and compelling one, as is the case for xiphos meaning a straight sword, but I've seen machaira used as a synonym for both of those. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.15.3.5 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 16 December 2005.

If you read Spanish, you should take a look at the Quesada Sanz article I cited. It's very good, and it deals with all the evidence. Some points (direct quotations are my own translation):

1. Μάχαιρα has a wide variety of meanings, including:
   1. a multipurpose knife used more as a tool than a weapon (Il. 3.271, 11.844)
   2. a kitchen or butcher's knife (Hdt. 6.75.2-3, Eurip. Cyc. 403)
   3. a sacrificial knife (Aristophanes Pax 948, Aristotle Pol. 1.2.3, 1252b, Eurip. Supp. 1205-1208)
   4. a surgical tool (Hipocratic Corpus 20.240)
2. "It is only in later times, during the fourth century B.C.—when the saber has existed as a weapon of war for more than a century—that the word μάχαιρα acquires the meaning of sword, of a weapon of war. But even then, in the classical sources it does not always designate a one-edged, curved saber comparable to the Iberian Falcata or to similar weapons represented on Red Figure Greek vases..., sometimes it means “sword” in general..."
   1. Xenophon does indeed use μάχαιρα in this case to mean a type of cavalry sabre, distinguishing it from the ξίφος but equiating it with the κοπίς. It would be nice if this text were allowed to resolve the issue (Xenophon is after all a soldier, so he shoudl know what he's talking about), unfortunately it gets more complicated.
   2. In Cyropædia 1.2.13 Xenophon suggests the panoply of a Persian warrior, which includes a "μάχαιραν ἢ κοπίδα" in the right hand. Compare also Cyr. 6.2.10 where he refers to Thracians carying machaerae and Egyptians carying copides (sorry, I just like the Latin-style transliteration better). It's unlcear if he means that these are two different weapons, or if he's just using synonyms to spice up his prose.

You know what? I don't have the energy to summarize this whole thing. I'd say that as a rule, the later you go the more likely it is that μάχαιρα will refer to a type of sabre. This trend holds out in Roman literature as well: in Plautus, machæra seems to mean any sword, but by the time of Isidore of Seville "Machæra autem est gladius longus ex una parte acutus" (Orig. 18,6,2). It is my opinion that to Isidore, machæra is a general term for one edged sword, and thus copis (which he doesn't mention) would have been a subcategory, but I can't prove this.

What does all this rambling mean for this article? Well, I can't vouch one way or another for how modern scholars and weapons enthusiasts use the word, but it does seem to me that we are not unjustified in claiming that at least in some circumstances the ancients did use the word to refer to a type of one edged, curved sword, and further they sometimes distinguished it from the kopis.

If you are a true stickler you will be unimpressed by my disorganized presentation, but I recommend you read the whole Quesada Sanz article to get the big picture. --Iustinus 19:03, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I think you have some persuasive arguments in there, particularly that I'm probably clinging to what were archaic usages even to more recent ancients, so I'll relent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.15.3.5 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 16 December 2005.

It's been interesting discussing this with you. I hope you'll get a wikiipedia account and become a more regular contributor. --Iustinus 20:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)