Template talk:Major Wine Styles

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This template was considered for deletion on 2006 September 9. The result of the discussion was no consensous.

Contents 1 TfD nomination of Template:Major Wine Styles 2 Guidelines 3 Inconsistencies? 3.1 Red Wine 3.2 White Wine 4 Proposed new template 5 White Zin 6 No consensus about deletion 7 Proposed replacement scheme

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Major Wine Styles

Template:Major Wine Styles has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Portnadler 11:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Following the recent comments and changes that have been made, I am beginning to question whether this template is worth having at all. It would be fair enough to have a template of Major Grape Varieties or Major Wine Producing Regions of the World, because everyone would be clear as to what they mean. But Major Wine Styles is too nebulous a term. Do we mean grape variety or region, or what? And what is major? It's all a matter of opinion, whereas Wikipedia is supposed to contain verifiable facts.

Portnadler 11:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that splitting this into multiple templates is a good idea (I seemed to have mentioned that previously myself as well), but vehemently disagree with deleting this template before that work is done. The new template proposals are in their infancy, and I think the proposed region template is a long way off from where we'll need it to be before we can put it into wide-spread usage. I think you jumped the gun on nominating this for deletion before its replacements are ready. I just hope that we don't see a total lack of navigation aids on these articles due to your proposal (most of them have no other templates), since I think navigation templates like this add value for users trying to browse around the topic. EvilSuggestions 16:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If we do keep it, we really need to fix some of the inconsistencies. In my view, it is completely nonsensical to have Chablis and Chardonnay as separate major wine styles. Chablis is an AOC for a wine made from Chardonnay grapes in the town of Chablis, France. Anything else called Chablis is fake. The fact that we seem to be unable to reach a consensus on this is proof, to me, of the inherent difficulty of having a template called Major Wine Styles. I am quite happy to produce a template called Major Grape Varieties as a replacement. As for wine-producing regions, I think that a list page would probably be better, with the regions organised into a geographical hierarchy. --Portnadler 17:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guidelines

After seeing some of the recent additions, I realized that when I created this template, I probably should have posted a little something here on the talk page to explain what I meant by "Major" and why certain styles were included/excluded (not that I got it right, just at hint at how I was picking them). I also noticed that the Category:Wine styles page also tries to strive at some guidelines, but likewise finds it difficult to be specific. As a suggestion, I'd like to propose the following guidelines for folks to comment on:

1. Should include many of the most popular styles that one could typically order at a restaurant that serves wine.
2. Should not just be a list of varieties, since a number of common styles rely on a blend of multiple varieties, except for the Varietals that are sufficiently popular on their own (e.g. Pinot Noir).
3. Should not include names that are specific to only one region or appelation, except where that name has come to be applied to wines of that style grown elsewhere, ignoring the enormous debates (often legal!) that arise over such practices (like Champagne).

The reason for the last guideline is that there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of "wine styles" if we were to include all of the regional ones. We can't list every single one here, in what is intended to be a concise & clear little navigation template.

So, with this in mind, here's my take on the recent additions: Beaujolais, Rioja, and Liebfraumilch are specific regional terms not applied to any wines made outside of France, Spain, or Germany, respectively. The same is true of Crémant, and it is basically just an alias for champagne, when grown outside the Champagne region. Carmenere is a variety, not a style, that its article hints only appears in blends, and besides is very rare, so I don't see have this qualifies as a "major" style. Under the fortified category, Marsala and Madeira are definitely regional styles not produced elsewhere,

I'm not sure about Malbec - it is gaining in popularity and now appears on its own and not just as a blending grape, so maybe it should make the cut. Also not sure about Muscat - seems that the name means the grape more than the style, but might be ok to leave it. Chianti, Tempranillo, Viognier, Port, Vermouth, and Sherry all are good adds, and I think we should keep them.

So, anyone else have an opinion on these? --EvilSuggestions 15:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi EveiSuggestions, that was me that went crazy adding a bunch of new entries. I agree with you on droping Crémant, but I am not sure about droping the rest. I came up with those entries by looking back over my notes of wines I have bought at local grocery stores over the last year. I rarely spend more than $12 a bottle. In each case, the name of the wine came from the bottle. My reasoning was that if it is sufficiently popular to be inexpensive at a grocery store, that it is relatively major.

While it is true that Rioja, for example, is a name for wines from Spain and no where else, the name describes a particular wine that is fairly popular. While there are not as many bottles of Rioja on the shelf as there are, say, Merlots, there are many Riojas to chose from and they are all fairly similar to each other (in the sense the Merlots are fairly similar to each other). As someone is faced with a variety of wines to choose from, it would seem logical that they should know what a Rioja is (as that is how it is labeled on the bottle). The same logic applies to the other regional wines and varietals on the list.

I completely agree with your point that we do not want the list to get too big (as it would then become meaningless). But I do not think that it is currently too big and I do not know that many more need to be added. My thinking is that the list should include all the types of wine available at a well-stocked non-specialty store.

That's my two cents. I don't want to hijack your template, but it did seem overly limited with the few enteries that were in there. --Mikebrand 18:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Not to get pedantic about this, but the issue I had with "Rioja" is not that it is only used to describe wines from Spain, but that I've typically seen it used more as the name of the wine growing region more so than one particular style of wine. As an example, you added Rioja as a red, yet I've got a bottle of a Rioja white wine in my collection right now that indicates there's more to the story than that. So, is it more appropriate to add Rioja to both the red and the white style lists, or to say that it's a region that produces multiple styles?

This is actually a common problem with a lot of European wines. Notice that we don't have Burgandy amongst the styles, as it's also a region that produces both reds and whites. The same is true of Bordeaux, or Douro, or even Napa for that matter. There's no end to the number of regions that could be added. Maybe we should just start a Major Wine Regions template? --EvilSuggestions 08:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point on the Rioja. I did not even realize there were styles other than red until you pointed it out and then I red the Wiki article. I'm laughing at myself now, but I had just assumed that the term Rioja was derived from the Spanish "rojo". I now see that it has nothing to do with rojo and is merely the Spanish pronunciation of Rio Oja blended into Rioja.

I have just learned that there are also white Beaujolais (though only 1% of production). According to the Wiki article, Liebfraumilch wines are all sweet and white (though I was beginning to doubt myself ;-).

Rather than a new Regions Template, maybe the issue could be addressed by a Regions category in this template for wines such as Bordeaux, Burgundy and Rioja. If we went that route, I am still not sure of were to put Beaujolais as it is almost always red (my inclination is to keep it in the red). My inclination would also be to keep Liebfraumilch in the whites and to keep Marsala and Madeira in the fortified category as they are always fortified (or I should probably be cautious can say "almost always").

I removed Carmenere as I would have to agree that it is not yet major (though it could increase in popularity).--Mikebrand 13:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistencies?

I just ran across this template because I have the Beaujolais article on my watchlist. I must confess that I find it confusing and inconsistent. For instance, most of the red wine 'styles' are in fact grape varieties, but in the case of Beaujolais you use this name rather than the variety, Gamay. Then, in the white wine category, you have Chablis and Chardonnay separately listed, whereas Chablis is a type of wine made from Chardonnay grapes grown in a specific region of France – i.e. Chablis is a sub-set of Chardonnay.

Maybe, as a European, I am biased, but most major styles of wine originate from Europe and should (in my view) be named after the region they originally come from. This would be my starting list (with the grape varieties listed in parentheses).

[edit] Red Wine

• Bordeaux (Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot)
• Burgundy (Pinot Noir)
• Beaujolais (Gamay)
• Rhone and south of France (Syrah - a.k.a Shiraz, Grenache, Carmenère, etc.)
• Rioja (Tempranillo)

[edit] White Wine

• Burgundy, which includes Chablis (Chardonnay)
• Loire/Bordeaux (Sauvignon Blanc)
• Germanic, including Alsace (Riesling, Sylvaner, Gewürztraminer, etc.)

This is not gospel, and is certainly not exhaustive, but I think it is more useful and consistent than what we have currently.

--Portnadler 16:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The listing above would probably work well for wines from western Europe. How would you classify a Tempranillo from Chile, a Pinot Noir from California a Muscat from Bulgaria or a Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand? My feeling on the template is that it makes sense to list names (whether a region or a grape) as they are printed on a bottle of wine, with the name of the grape more helpful than the name of the region (in most cases). --Mikebrand 18:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I would call a Tempranillo from Chile a Rioja style, a Pinot Noir from California a red Burgundy style, etc. All these new world wines are trying to emulate a style of wine that was originally produced in Europe. For instance, I have drunk some extremely good Pinot Noir wines from Oregon and New Zeland. At their best, they are (arguably) as good as the best red Burgundy, and I'm sure the wine producer would be very complimented to hear this. So, for me, the style is based on that of the European originals. If you use the grape variety, you may as well rename this template to be Major Grape Varieties, which I don't think was the intention of the person who originally designed it. --Portnadler 10:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"All these new world wines are trying to emulate a style of wine that was originally produced in Europe." I disagree with that statement whole heartedly. New World winemakers may be working with the same grapes as those used in Europe, but the styles and Philosophies can differ a great deal. If you tasted my Shiraz, for example, and you praised it as a Great Rhone style wine, I'd be happy you liked it, but I'd be disappointed and feel like I missed my mark.

Of course that really doesn't have a lot to do with what goes in the template though ;) I will say, as an American, most American's don't understand much about the European way of naming wines. If they did, my Mom wouldn't keep asking me when I'm going to make a Chablis :-D. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bethling (talk • contribs).

Given that explanation, I think the scheme you laid out would work. If you implement it, I think it would benefit with a short explanation at the top describing the style-variety relationship in the template. Otherwise, I suspect that people will frequently contribute entries that do not match the scheme you laid out. Would you make similar changes for sparkling and fortified wines? --Mikebrand 15:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I will see if anyone else has any comments, so I'll leave it for a day or two. For fortified wines, I would go for Sherry, Port and (maybe) Madeira, and for sparkling wines, Champagne and, er... what else?. The thing to remember is that we are talking about major wine styles in this template – it shouldn't be an exhaustive list. --Portnadler 17:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Just as a thought, it might be worthwhile to develop the new template on this talk page. That way we and anyone else who cares can work out kinks before it is posted as an actual template. That should allow us to avoid reversions from people who have contributed to the existing template and may at first not see the benefit of the new format. BTW, have you read the discussion above between EvilSuggestions and myself. I'm not sure that the two of you are entirely on the same page. It might be good to bring EvilSuggestions into the discussion. I'll invite him/her. --Mikebrand 17:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I knew when I created this that "styles" was a poorly defined term and could lead to some disagreements. It's like the word "art": it's hard to define, but you know when you see it :). So, just my opinions, but here goes: a style is not a region, since a region might produce multiple styles. A style is not a varietal, since a particular style could use different grapes or blends thereof (see Champagne). To me, a wine style is whatever widely used term is used for a group of moderately similar wines, even if they come from different regions, or use different grapes. They're the categories that wines are placed in on wine lists/menus at dining establishments, and sometimes how they're grouped on shelves in stores (minus the geographically specific names). Admittedly, as previously pointed out, this concept may differ too much in usage in Europe versus the "new world" areas.

Perhaps it's too nebulous of a concept for encyclopedic use. If this continues to be an unresolvable grey area, then I guess the best option would be to split this into two (or more) templates: one for grape varieties and one (or many :) for wine regions. There would still be some wines that wouldn't cleanly fit in either, however.

I do agree that we should probably work on changes to this template somewhat "offline" as this now appears on quite a few article pages. To that end, I put a copy of this template under WikiProject Wine, as Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine/Template/Major Wine Styles. I encourage you to use that version to propose significant changes. If we opt to split this template into separate varieties/regions templates, we might want to start them over there too. Moreover, I suggest anyone here that is not already a member of WikiProject Wine to join, as we could use your help! Thanks! --EvilSuggestions 20:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've signed up and look forward to working with you! --Portnadler 16:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed new template

I've edited the draft template at Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine/Template/Major Wine Styles, according to the ideas in my previous messages. As I've said before, if it is major wine styles, it should not be an exhaustive list. I've therefore deliberately kept it brief.

I struggled with Sparkling wines, because most are imitations of the Champagne style. However, there is perhaps a case for including Spanish Cava and Italian Spumante. As for Fortified wines, I've excluded Vermouth, because this contains non-grape flavourings, so I don't think that technically it should be called wine.

--Portnadler 15:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Portnadler, based on your previous outline, I was under the impression that the entry for Rioja, for example, would include the variety Tempranillo. If the template is to include just the terms that are in the draft, it would seem to me that the template would belong only on the WP pages that are listed in the template. That is, the template would not belong on the Tempranillo page. If that is the case, a varietials template would probably be in order. Otherwise readers are likely come across the template on the Rioja page, add Tempranillo to it and place the template at the bottom of the Tempranillo page.

Personally, I would prefer a single wine "types" template that included styles and varietals. My thinking is that the template should include the term that is most descriptive on the wine label. Most wines produced outside Europe do not include the style term on the label. Instead, they include the name of the grape variety (chardonnay, pinot grigio, pinot noir, merlot, tempranillo). To satisfy the purists, the categories could be separated: Red Styles (Beaujolais, Bordeaux, etc); Red Varietals (Merlot, Pinot Noir, etc); White Styles (Bordeux, Burgundy, etc); White Varietals (Chardonnay, Pinot Grigio, Riesling, etc). That would allow use of the same template on most wine-related pages.

BTW, were would Liebfraumilch fit into the Style scheme? Is it a sub-style of Germanic?

--Mikebrand 21:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem is that that, in Europe, the traditional wine styles rarely include the grape variety on the label, whereas in the New World they do. For instance, a knowledgeable Frenchman would buy the excellent wine, Condrieu, because he knows what it tastes like. He may neither know nor care that it is made from the Viognier grape. However, a Viognier wine made in, say, Australia, would have a similar style to the French Condrieu. There is definitely a case for having a template for varietals. My case is, however, that this template is not it.

I accept that there are some varietals that are grown in the New World, but rarely in Europe, that produce wines of a distinctive style – for instance Pinotage and Zinfandel. However, it is a matter of judgement whether we call them major wine styles.

Where would I put Liebfraumilch? To be honest, I'd pour it down the drain! It is just a brand name devised by some slick marketeers who wanted to sell poor-quality German-style wine. It's definitely a sub-set of what I call Germanic.

--Portnadler 10:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sold on the usefulness of this template, but a lot of that might be my American bias showing through. I do think you're missing a few styles. The Italian Chianti, Barolo, Amarone, and Super-Tuscans should probably be there (again maybe US bias with all the Italian wine we import :). I'd also probably change "Germanic" to "Rhine", since that's how I usually see it described.

If the major wine style template is going to move towards this philosophy, I do think, with the wine project's (current)focus on varietal wines, that we'd need a template for that, since it would be of more immediate use. -- The Bethling^(Talk) 12:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh Yeah... Don't forget Rosé as a style :) -- The Bethling^(Talk) 13:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The usage of Rhine or Rhenish is not as commonly used as you may think, at least here in the present. It was used as a catch all phrase for all German wines for hundreds of years. But now you normally just see the wine referred to as German i.e.-"A German Riesling.." or by it's German name "A Spätburgunder.." (Pinot Noir). Agne 23:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] White Zin

I added Rosé as a category and White Zin as a major type. It really seemed like it was missing. Even though Zinfandel is in the template, more users are probably much familiar with the blush wine. As maligned as it is, it's still #3 in case sales in the US. -- The Bethling^(Talk) 12:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No consensus about deletion

I nominated this template for deletion, but the 'official' result is that there was no consensus – hence it stays, at least until we come up with a better idea. I have removed Chablis from the template, since that is to me the most obvious inconsistency. Chablis is a type of Chardonnay. --Portnadler 11:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed replacement scheme

This discussion has now been copied to the template {{Wines}} talk page. The new template is transcluded below. --Portnadler 10:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)