Talk:Mahabharata/Archive1

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Contents

Synopsis

I am currently adding lots more detail for the synopsis of Mahabharat. However I have come to notice that there is a error of some sort in the beginning of the battle of Kurushetra: The battle at Kurukshetra

[[Image:Mahabharata2.jpg|right|300px|thumb| Can someone please fix this link?

What is the section on Mahabharata Symbolism doing here? It is not anything from the epic but the interpretations of some school of thought( ancient, modern, pseud-ancient or somone's personal ???). It can hardly be kept in this article. It maybe moved to a page of its own. This kind of interpretaion can be applied any story, even Bollywood movies, ..certainly nobody has attributed this kind of glory to Shantanu.

DATING

I would simply like to say that Dr Narahari Achar's paper on the dating of the Mahabharata war which was achieved using direct comparison of the comets and other astronomical events described in the epic with a vision of the sky using software created by NASA has yielded superb results and this has now been presented and been accepted for publication. Dr Achar is of course a Professor of Physics at Memphis in the USA. His dating which is in almost perfect accordance with the 150 astronomical events described in the epic put the occurence of the war at Nov 12th 3067 BCE. This has great significance as it pushes human history backwords and makes the possibility of the Ramayan occuring in a different Yuga feasible.

I'd like to see some more technical information in this article. What about the actual structure of the verses? The meter? The rhyme scheme?

I may be wrong on this. But I suspect the names of the books given here, with a final consonant; e.g. Adiparvan are modern Malayalam or Tamil forms. The original Sanskrit form would not have the final 'n'.

Imc 15:51, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes, fixed. Three years late, but better than never :) --Shreevatsa 14:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering (but don't know) if the 07:57, 16 Nov 2003 edit wasn't motivated by POV. It remobved the bit about upper caste and lower Indian identifying with different sides in the Mahabharata orthogonal 13:06, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Its possible it was POV. Only User:Imc can say. Jay 14:53, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think it is better removed because it seems to be only opinion which I personally have never heard at all. If it was general opinion then it could find place without citing sources, otherwise it needs some citing especially since the statement is politically incorrect. KRS 15:05, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I trust that the only thing that is ‘politically incorrect’ is the term ‘lowest castes’, which it may be better to replace. It’s a bit worrying if anything else is seen as politically incorrect The fact that the names Duryodhan and Dushasan (for instance) are used in some communities is inarguable, even if not widely known. These names seem to be commonest in Jharkhand and Orissa. We can all agree that the dominant castes would not dream of using Kaurava names. Because those communities that use these names are not rich, numerous and not found on the internet in numbers, they can be difficult to find among the references to the characters in the standard story. Searches on google that try to pull up Kaurava names without references to the Mahabharata, e.g., http://www.google.com/search?q=duryodhan+-Mahabharat and http://www.google.com/search?q=dushasan+-Mahabharat pull up a few that are lower down the order. Imc 23:47, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Living in India( in the South), I have never, ever,heard anyone being named Duryodhan or Dusshasan... it would seem blasphemous to all Hindus, whether low or high caste. Probably a very specific community in some specific area may use it(you have mentioned some places) due to reasons unknown, but by no means can it be a blanket statement. Just for interest, when the Hindi villain Pran was at the height of his reign, almost all North Indians stopped naming their children Pran!!BTW, what do you mean to convey through the Google reference? KRS 14:56, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
If some castes from Orissa and Jharkhand are using Kaurava names then this is certainly of encyclopedic value, and a mention can be made of it in the article. But as KRS said, this is a specific instance and should not be generalized. I went through the google search link and was curious as to why there are 1000+ links. Most of them still refer to the Duryodhan of Mahabharat. So we need to come up with a more selective query. Jay 18:39, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I did not think the original statement was unduly generalised. It is only more common in Orissa and Jharkhand, but it is found in other places - one of the links in my search set points to Uttaranchal communities and another to an individual in Bihar. Also, I'm a bit at a loss at producing a selective Google query that manages to lose the numerous hits on the book. In reference to KRS's previous post, I too come from the south, and I too had never heard of these things till relatively recently. Specifically an India Today article on the affected communities after the 1999 Orissa cyclone which then prompted me to look for more instances. Imc 21:35, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Continued, but return indents to left

I?m replacing the section about Pandava and Kaurava names that was taken out by 203.197.24.195 (Removed an incorrect remark) on 16 Nov 2003-12-02. I take it there are no disagreements on the Pandava names. To show justifications for the Kaurava names takes time, since they are swamped by the extracts from the standard Mahabharata. The following were obtained by putting search terms such as ?duryodhan -mahabharat ?mahabharata? into Google which only reduced the swamping.

Duryodhana 1. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030308/region.htm 2. http://news.daylightonline.com/Kulti.html 3. Many results (see Google) for Dr. Duryodhan Epili

Dushasana 1. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010408/nation.htm 2. http://www.nist.edu/newslet/e-news-5.htm 3. http://www.ifrc.org/docs/news/00/00021501/

Imc 23:03, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Removed generalization of lower castes. Need more statistics/information to decide what are the "lowest" castes and who go for the Kaurava naming. Need to find out if this practice is spread throughout India or only the eastern states. To say that these castes "identify with the Kauravas" is probably a POV. Need information on their purpose of keeping such names.
This discussion is appropriate at Demographics_of_India. Jay 00:14, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Agrees. The practice is not unknown among indigenous tribes dwelling in the jungles and highlands of eastern India. But, the "lower caste" connection is too far-fetched, and points to a widespread use and a distinct cultural strain (which IMO is not true). It is at its best pretence, an interesting trivia rather than a revealing fact. Needs more research before this gets mentioned anywhere.

longest epic?

http://www.tibet-china.org/newbook/englishhtml/gesare.html http://web.utk.edu/~jftzgrld/MBh1Home.html

The above two sites both state the Tibetan Epic of king Gesar is the longest Epic. I've edited the text (Gesar doesn't seem to be in the wikipedia yet). I figured I'd cite my sources, since the Mahabharata may be a controversial subject. (Also, this is the first time I'm using a talk page, so I hope I'm doing this right).

re : longest epic

there are many sites which state that Mahabharat is the longest epic. i searched on google for gesar and mahabharat and only got this page as a result. so i think that in the absence of any information comparing the two, we should not make statements like Gesar is the longest epic. i have changed it back to what it earlier was because of this reason.

i also added a bit about the TV serial mahabharat.

I'm restoring the reference to the Tibetan epic on the strength of several sources. Here's one that gives specifics:
"Gesar is a great heroic epic collectively created by the ethnic Tibetan. It has been passed down for some 1,000 years. It is an immense work filling 120-odd volumes, with more than one million verses, totaling over 20 million words. It is longer than the total length of the famous five epics (the five epics are the Babylonian Gilgamesh, the Greek Iliad and Odyssey, and the Indian Ramayana and Mahabharata.) and is known as the longest epic in the world." source: http://www.ceg.com.cn/e1-n12.htm
Other sites oriented toward China or Tibet echo the claim, but it is perhaps more persuasive when supported by an Indian site (a newspaper in Malayalam), from which, in fact, some language seems to have been used for the Wikipedia article without attribution:
"It is the second longest literary work in the world (after the Tibetan Epic of Gesar). It is traditionally attributed to Vyasa, who places himself as one of the characters within the epic." source: copy cached by Google - http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:mJXbA2bezGcJ:www.deepika.com/education.htm+Gesar+Mahabharata+%22+longest+epic%22+-Wikipedia&hl=en
On these authorities I'm demoting the Mahabharata back to second place, while rewording the copyrighted material from Deepika. JamesMLane 19:45, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have no clue about Gesar but I do know it was I who specfically wrote the clause "places himself as one of the characters within the Epic" and I don't read Malayalam or English-newspapers from India. It was original. Also, that whole sentence in general was constructed through numerous edits of multiple people, so it's likely whoever wrote that article took it from Wikipedia.--LordSuryaofShropshire 20:31, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
My apologies, I stand corrected. In my defense I'll say that the possibility of copying the other way did occur to me. The copyright notice on the Indian site was dated 2002. I looked at the Wikipedia article as it stood early in 2003, and none of this content was in there. That's how I concluded that we'd stolen from them rather than vice versa. I guess the 2002 copyright applied to the site design but not to the specific text. At any rate, I don't care about any of the differences in wording, except that I made a stub on the epic of King Gesar, so the link should be preserved. "Tale of Gesar" doesn't seem to be a widely used name for the Tibetan epic. To avoid giving that impression, I'll lower-case the "tale" and make it a wikilink to the stub. JamesMLane 22:51, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Major reorganization of the page

I reorganized most of the page and only a handful of lines were removed or reworded. If anyone has any comments or questions about what I did, please feel free to drop me a line and improve anything you see. I'd appreciate any feedback (good or bad). Thanks. --Localizer 00:34, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

Material from Rajagopalachari

A large chunk has been added with the notation "Paraphrased from C Rajagopalachari's translation of the Mahabharata". This isn't our normal format. If Rajagopalachari's work is merely a source, then it would usually be listed in a separate "References" section. If there's a significant amount of material quoted verbatim, then we have to consider whether it's permissible under fair use (or whether the original is now in the public domain). I'm not sure how to handle it, but something should be done, because as it is, it looks wrong. Furthermore, it's in a section that gives very brief descriptions of major characters, but then we encounter this long story about Yudishtira. Some reorganization seems to be called for, depending on whether this passage can even stay in the article. JamesMLane 11:32, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Gitopadesha

The newly added picture caption refers to "Mahabharata's Gitopadesha" but the term isn't used or explained anywhere else in the article. Does it refer to the conversation between Krishna and Arjuna before the climactic battle? or to the text of what Krishna tells Arjuna then? or something else? Absent an elaboration on this point, we should rewrite the caption. JamesMLane 11:53, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

yes, gitopadesha ('gita + upadesha' - sanskrit) refers to the conversation between Krishna and Arjuna before the climactic battle. This is what forms the 'Gita' or bhagavadhgita or shrimadhbhagavadgita.

Dating

I removed the bit about the Mahabharata coming a thousand years after the Ramayana because it must surely be a myth that 50 generations had passed since the Ramayana was written (just like the genealogies of Jesus in the Bible are a myth).Andriesb 21:47, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

details

Should there be a precedent set that would lead to the creation of over 100,000 seperate articles for each verse of the Mahabharata?

See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Individual Bible verses. ~~~~ 11:37, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Merging with Kurukshetra

There has been a proposal to merge Kurukshetra war with this article. Mahabharata plays a very large role among Hindus in India (and elsewhere) and just small parts of it themselves have significant roles in the culture. The war has a lot of significance. Events before, during and after the war have been aspects of current culture - like karna donating his armour and earrings to Indra, which, along with other things done by karna, are referred to when talking about generosity. Its like the articles on different significat parts of the bible. So it deserves a separate entry.

I oppose the idea for the practical reason that this article could get too long. The MB should be treated in Wikipedia as a set of encyclopaedia articles, and not as an electronic copy of the whole work. If this is accepted, then this article needs to remain as it is now, an overview of the entire work, with links to separate pages on the detail. As someone else has asked earlier, sections on the style of the work, the meter, and the original language, would be the sort of thing that would be appropriate here. Maybe brief summaries of a few of the principal parts of the work would be appropriate here, while the article is still relatively short, but perhaps not later. That bit currently in the article, on how Drona got killed should really be moved to the Drona or Yudishtira pages. (Even the battle on its own might get too large for a single page at some point, given that the Gita is part of it.) Imc 17:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
To previous poster, please sign and date these comments, otherwise we don't know if we are looking at something a year old. Thanks. Imc 17:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Oppose Alren (talk • contribs)16:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Stories and characters

It seems to me that the recently added material on some of the principal characters would be better placed in the actual articles on those characters - e.g. Karna, Bhishma etc. The entries here should be little more than one line pointers to these. Imc 16:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Dating?

Encarta claims the poem was not set in its final form until around 300 CE. According the Yona article, the Mahabarata refers to the migrations of the Yavana (Greeks) and the Migration of Kambojas, which date to the 2nd/1st centuries BCE. I am not an expert on Hindu poetry, but I was under the impression that much of the material is thought to be very early (1500-1200 BCE), but that the poetry in its final form was not committed to writing until much later. Is this correct?--Rob117 17:14, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

The above is broadly in line with what I understand. The stuff in the Yona article seems speculative to me. The earliest known written text of the MB is (AFAIK) from about the 11th century CE. But it was probably in its final form bar the inclusion of peripheral works long before that. The history of the text is probably worth an article in itself. Imc 21:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Barbareek

I have removed this obtuse and very minor story from this page as it is quite unknown to most Hindus who grew up on the epic, and its addition here (and as the first "story" in the "stories" section no less!) deceives the Mahabharata-newbie into believing that Barbareek was somehow a significant character. That is anything but the truth - how many chapters is his name even repeated in? He's an extremely minor side character not involved in the major drama of the story - he didn't even take part in the war - and while he may be important to a small religious sect in modern times, his saga should not be included here, but kept on the Khatushyamji page.

I'd prefer a synopsis - however condensed - on this page, as is found on the Ramayana one. If no one else offers to write it, I will when I have time. Otherwise, the "stories" I believe that are essential to include here in the "stories" section should be, in rough chronological order: 1) Ganga, Shantanu and the birth of Bhishma 2) Bhishma, Satyavati and Amba/Ambika/Ambalika 3) the marriages of Pandu and Dhritarashtra 4) Drona and Drupada 5) the birth and education of the Kuru princes 6) the humiliation of Drupada and the syamvara of Draupadi 7) Indraprastha 8) the Game of Dice and its Aftermath 9) the 12-year exile 10) the 13th year and the last attempt at peace 11) the War 12) the War's aftermath and the end of the Pandavas

- V

I agree that the Barbareek story should go, to its own subject page. The same applies to the current long texts on some of the other characters; Karna for instance. A synopsis would be helpful, but perhaps it could also include the 'framework', in other words, Vyasa telling the story to Ganesha, et.c.. Imc 21:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

SWDesai21

  • I have reverted the total vandalisation of the article by SWDesai21.
  • The "short sysopsis" which SWDesai21 added to the article may well be short compared to the size of the Mahabharata but it was far too long relative to the size of the article. Also on the basis of SWDesai21's other edits, I am assuming it to be a copyright violation. -- RHaworth 07:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

shouldn't a spoiler warning be added?

since the stories are told, should a tag be added on the spoiler? just wondering Idleguy 07:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Not necesarry. Most people reading the Mahabharata already know the stories.

Accuracy question - comparison of length

By my count the Odyssey and Iliad together comprise 27,300 lines of verse, or something like that. If the Mahabharata is only 100,000 lines, then clearly one cannot say that it is seven times longer than the Iliad and Odyssey combined. I also have doubts about it being four times longer than the Bible, but it is difficult to compare because the Bible is not a verse poem. 4:38, 12 December 2005

74,000 (or 100,000) verses, not lines of verse. With a verse being four lines, it would fit the "more than 10 times as long" perfectly. --Shreevatsa 14:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Dating

According to my calculations and research, the Mahabharata war was fought in November 1180 B.C. This is the most accurate date and matches the astronomical solar eclipse and other phenomena. Also it goes with the Aryan invasion theory, which dates the aryan invasion to 2000 B.C. to 1500 B.C. I told it first here. Cheers.

Note that the Aryan Invasion is controversial (and false), and other sources place it at 3102BC while placing the Ramayan at 7323BC, therefore leaving a lot of room between avataras. (Ram -> Krishna) = 4300 yr difference. 3102 BC makes more sense and accounts for oral tradition.Bakaman%% 20:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Articles that need help

Anyone care to take a look at:

I encountered them while updating some links to Epic and they need some help. Some need quotes from the MHB translated. John 21:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

"Another viewpoint"

I have removed the portion of this article labeled "Another Viewpoint" as it is POV and entirely conjecture. It is also badly written, and belongs perhaps in a middle-school paper on the Mahabrata rather than on Wikipedia. "One view of this great epic, is that it never really happened. It is believed by many that it was written as we neared the end of the last downward Dwapara Yuga. This however, conflicts with the fact that the end of the Mahabharata symbolizes the beginning of the age of Kali (Kaliyug). Even today, research has shown evidence of the Mahabharata actually occuring. Examples such as the ruins of Dwarka (formerly the capitol of the Yadav kingdom) support the fact that the Mahabharata was more than a written story; it was crucial part of Vedic history that still inspires millions all over the world."


I think this article gives an impression that mahabharata certainly happened without evevn quoting any evidence..its definitely extremely biased......imagine the reality of arujna being lectured the whole bhagvadgita in front of the armies and those soldiers dying in boredom...........mahabharata might just be an epic written much later recording the battles in history and it might also be an attempt to consolidate the idea of unified india.....the only war that indian kingdoms ever unitedly fought may certainly be the independance movement ..so in 3000 bc all kingdoms taking up two sides doesnt logically make sense just coz there is an epic saying that.even if the epic was written latter with a lot of concoction it wud still appear real....

The Mahabharata undoubtedly has some exaggerations, but the fact is that it happened. The war happened, these great men and women existed. I hope you are not trying to deny that fact. Nobleeagle (Talk) 05:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Also Mahabharat Range

Besides the Mahabharata, Wiki needs an article on the Mahabharat Range. This sub-Himalayan mountain range, generally 2,000 to 3,000 meters high, is a major barrier between the northern plains of India and the mountainous highlands extending north to the main Himalayan range.

Generally it is the boundary between plains languages such as Hindi, Maithili and Bengali, and Pahari dialects such as Nepali, Garhwali and Kumaoni as well as more aboriginal Tibeto-Burman languages as well as between ethnic groups living on the plains and in the jungles of the lowest foothills and those living in the "hills".

The Mahabharat Range is also an important hydrographic barrier that gathers many tributaries descending from the Himalayas and even the Trans-Himalaya via extremely deep gorges between sub-ranges of the main Himalayan range, with relatively few gorges cutting through the Mahabharat Range so that candelabra-like drainage patterns have formed.

Is Bhagavatam an Epic?

Undobtedly of great importance to Hindus, is Bhagavatam an itihasa? Then what stops all the 18 Mahapuranas from being called epics? Even the Hindu tradition distingusihes between Itihasa and Puranas.

The Bhagavatam, as a Purana, is considered a part of the larger itihasa tradition, but the Puranas are always mentioned as separate from the Mahabharata and Ramayana. the Puranas are more like mythology/theology/philosophy farragos with no SINGLE overarching story... the closest to epic format would be the Bhavagatam, which essentialy breezes by the first seven avatars of Vishnu and then dwells for most of the book on Krishna... remember, the definition of 'epic' has been based on the Greek epics... the iliad, odyssey, and the later Roman Aeneid.-- 68.173.46.79 23:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Dhaumya

I'm not sure what's going on with this article, Dhaumya. I don't see why the article is just a complete list of all the characters from Mahabharata. Could someone take a look and figure out why it's that way and not about Dhaumya? Metros232 03:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It looks like this article about Dhoumya has been deleted, probably because it was considered as a duplication of what was already told in the details for Mahabharata (where it probably belongs). To keep the link to Dhoumya, it is being redirected to List of characters in the Mahabharata. Not me, just guessing, but makes sense. You can research within the deletion comments and/or discussion threads. --Jdesmet 02:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Popular Story telling

I think both the articles about the Ramayana and the Mahabharata diserve a subject or a reference to popular story telling in India. I am thinking in the lines of an Indian Shadow play, or Chitrakathi Paintings. Again, not my subject, but maybe somebody else will pick up on it? --Jdesmet 02:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Oldenberg's 'Stipulation'

How can anyone 'Stipulate' (which means 'Order') somethng about a book, unless he is the editor or publisher? The Oldenberg POV is in not in context. The way it exists now, it seems to be a sneaky way of including a bad review of the book. He may feel that the tragedy no longer exists but equally eminent scholars have a different opinion. Are we then going to add Rudyard Kipling's fulminations on similar lines on heariing that the Oxford University Press included the Mahabharata in its list of all time great books. And surely not Macualay's opinion on the corpus of the entire Indian literature.


Shashi Tharoor's Work

The Great Indian Novel is absent in the Modern Interpretations section.

Gemini

In the section on The Pandavas, there is a link at "Ashwini" which points to Gemini, which is a disambiguation page. I'm not quite sure how it should be disambiguated. Perhaps it should be linked to something else entirely? The article on Castor and Pollux does mention a comparison of the Gemini twins to the Ashvins, but there's not enough context for me to be sure that that's the proper referent (although it does seem plausible). Perhaps someone more familiar with the source material can look into this, and change the link as appropriate? Thanks! Xtifr tälk 00:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

(Later) I went ahead and changed it to "Ashvins", just to fix the dab link. If this is wrong, please feel free to link it to something more appropriate, unlink it, or make it a red-link. Just please don't revert it back to Gemini! thanks Xtifr tälk 05:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

English Translations

There are several partial translations and retellings of the epic in English. Are they worth listing? Agingjb 08:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

UFO

Is it true that flying saucers capable of crossing entire India in less than an hour are described in this ancient epic, allegedly being powered by mercury boiling in iron tanks? It is also said the battle scenes correctly describe the symptoms of tactical nuclear explosions. Supposedly the ancient (antlantide?) civilization which was fighting those wars was more technologically developed than ourselves. 195.70.48.242 11:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

In terms of nuclear weapons there are theories in existence along those lines, see Brahmastra and the below links for interest.The nearest thing to UFO's in Mahabharata would probably be the Vimanas which are described in a number of the Puranic texts.
You will have to judge for yourself if you think there's any truth in the theories or not? Can't help with that one ;-) Regards, Gouranga(UK) 16:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Synopsis

Could any one check if the Synopsis is not just copy-vio? I think we can work on this article to make it a FA. Anyone wants to contribute?--æn↓þæµß¶-ŧ-¢ 20:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

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