Talk:Mage: The Ascension

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[edit] Metaplot attribution

This article has suffered from slight vandalism based on fan factions for much of its existence, and I've just corrected a minor example of that. From what I understand the push to demonize Jess Heinig has taken a new tactic of attributing changes some fans didn't like to him even though they were put in place before he had anything to do with the line.

The balance of Mage's drastic metaplot changes, from the death of the Masters to the destruction of both Horizon and Doissetep, were done under Phil Brucato's developership and with his approval. These changes began in 1997: a few months after Mage 2nd came out.

Since I have a great deal of respect for everyone involved in the line and wish respective eforts to be properly attributed, I will be monitoring this article for further isues like this.

Peer review Mage: The Ascension has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

I'd like to explain a few things pertaining to my last edit.

First, I'd like to comment 64.231.132.127 on good job. Especially edits at metaphysics (as really good wording) and contemporary setting on (as really needed) are appreciated.

However I felt compelled to revert to old wording in few cases (especially in history section) as I think that it better explains the topic to average, uninitiated reader. However, I was careful to integrate the old and new content. Also I increased amount of linkage to existing articles on non-WoD topics. This is an attempt to better cross-reference the article with the vast content of Wikipedia.

Second thing is a more delicate matter: I've decided to cut down the number of links pertaining to Mage universe like Order of Reason or Rogue Council. In my (and not only mine) opinion, a Wikipedia is universal encyclopedia not the one on WoD. Besides, why create article on Order of Reason or Rogue Council if there are no article on Technocracy or Traditions and different Traditions' and Conventions' articles are barely more than stubs? Yes, you can write that specific articles but you risk that they will be voted for deletion as insignificant trivia (as Bone gnawers almost were). So if you are really going to write sizeable article in near future - be bold and make an edit re-creating your links. If not, it's better to reduce the amount of red links and encourage fellow Wikipedians to focus on things that are really important to the topic. As you can see from my edit, I think that Order of Reason can be included in Technocracy (Mage: The Ascension) article.
Just remember you can come later and re-enable link if you are ready with article it points to.

BTW: I found out that FreeMind can be a very good tool for remembering your plans for Wikipedia. Feel free to see an example of its use for Wikipedia. Hope it will be useful :)

  • Not bad... It's a plausible idea... however if the articles are properly written and gneral enough they will pass VfD without problems... my list of separate articles for the Crafts was quite too much (i made it long ago, before i actually knew more on wikipedia) and i think they should simpl go in a single article with information partaining to them. I think the current article is pretty good and that i'll be able to have soem free time to rectify some of the current red links... sign next time Forseti ;) --Asmodai 22:12, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] On factions list

I noticed that listing all the Traditions, conventions and other detailed subdivisions in Mage is increasingly popular. However, later such lists haunt with lots of red links. Ie: what is the sense of Listing the Pharmacopoeists if there is even no article on Technocracy? Sorry, but even main Traditions have inadequate articles and links to them exist since 11 Oct 2003. Also, please check the target of links - Zaibatsu and Secret Societies probably don't point where they were meant to.

As I said before, I think that article on Tradition/Convention-level faction are OK but beyond that they are probably best suited as subsections of their respective Tradition/Convention. This is Wikipedia not encyclopedia on WoD only and thus minor items that have no chance to expand beyond the stub are likely to be voted for deletion. -- Forseti 09:33, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • I killed them, but here's a paste for future reference... Next time feel free to edit it and just explain here. The current VFD's could at any time lead to a Reddy hunt and that wouldn't shed nice light on Mage... --Asmodai 21:19, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

The pasted List:

The above link to the Cult of Ecstacy needs to be fixed - at present it merely redirects to a general information page about the rest of the traditions.--Crais459 09:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spirituality and Society sections

Much to my astonishment I've recently discovered that the article on Mage: the Ascension doesn't mention Ascencion at all! While we are at it, it doesn't elaborate on Awakening, Epiphanies, Gilgul and other "development work" thingies. Perhaps Spirituality section would be needed but I'm not sure how much detail should be put there - what do you think?

Also I suspect that reader knowing nothing on Mage would be thrown at deep water on History section - perhaps we should do some introduction on factions, chantries, mastery-apprenticeship and other social things. This could also include information on nature of Ascension War, namely that it is silent war not overt. Else the reader could imagine it as sort of heavy-militaristic manga bent on mysticism.

I'd have rather busy weekend but from monday I plan to develop the article somewhat so please give your thoughts. -- Forseti 23:52, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Paradigm and Ascension Details

Mage's approach to what paradigm is and how it figures into the setting, on the one hand, and how it was sometimes appropriated (clumsily) as a game mechanic to put further and unintended limits on what a player's character in the setting is practically capable of, with magic (< what the player can describe in a way that the Storyteller approves of because it is sufficiently entertaining, sufficiently internally coherent, sufficiently scientifically plausible, or sufficiently accompanied by bribes, usually in the form of Pizza and Mountain Dew), are very, very different influences on how "paradigm" came to be understood by players of the game.

The books published for Mage: the Ascension have been woefully but intentionally (in my opinion) ambiguous about defining paradigm. I note the article body describes paradigm as something that is involved in *justifying* the use of magic, but this is very contrary to the real concept of paradigm as presented in the *setting*. (It's consistent with the misappropriation of paradigm as a character-limiting game mechanic). Paradigm is like (canonically, it's compared to) a natural language the Mage works in. In this sense, paradigm is no more involved in "justifying" acts of Magic than correct Latin grammar is necessary to justify a logical argument.

On a related note, Ascension, as a concept in the setting, has been intentionally obscured by the late Mage: the Ascension Revised line. Revisionist history in the Mage Revised line painted the recent past in the game setting, and by implication, the rules and ideas of the previous edition of the game, in different ways than the 2nd edition (unrevised) presented itself. Ascension, the efforts to achieve which were often described as "the Ascension War" was, in the 2nd edition of the game, a broad term describing Mages' efforts to enlighten humanity, work to better the lot of individuals and humanity in practical terms, and fight 'cold' and 'hot' wars (mostly cold) with other paradigmatic groups of Mages. The Revised line, in this round-about way, muddled the definition of "Ascension War," to mean, "Mages who used to shoot fireballs at each other from dragonback, downtown."

[edit] Resonance, Nature of

The section on metaphysics discusses types of resonance-- dynamic, entropic, static, which is IMO inappropriate. These are very late inclusions in the game, and very unsubtle reversals of what resonance had been in previous editions of the game-- previously, it did not attach to people except in extraordinary circumstances. Rather, it was a kind of tension that existed between specific acts of magic and the ambient environment. This is how resonance was construed through the predominant history of the game-- an innate tension between specific acts of magic and other factors, and it is not how resonance is construed in most popular play of Mage.

The simplification, furthermore, of resonance into three categories, is an oversimplification of resonance that was instituted solely so that players' characters could have another cruchy game mechanic, at the expense of an interesting and non-pigeonholed means for the Storyteller to adjust magic's function in particular circumstances. (Point being, it's not only unpopular and misrepresentative of the game as a whole, it's also simply bad for the setting and gameplay).

Finally, all disputes about the popularity of Mage Revised's resonance aside, developers repeatedly stated, and the canon shows, that the Garou Triat and Mage essences are not equivalent, and they definitely should not be presented as such.

At minimum, a discussion of resonance types does not belong in an introduction of Mage metaphysics, and no reference to W:tA should be made.

[edit] Planning an Edit

I'm not a regular Wikipedia user, and don't understand the conventions entirely, but am planning to look into the request for peer review for this article, and if possible do a significant edit of it. I haven't any better way to transmit the edit I've worked on than to include it here in draft form:

-Intro-

Mage: The Ascension is a role-playing game based in the World of Darkness, and is published by White Wolf Game Studio. The characters portrayed in the game are broadly referred to as Mages, and are able to perform subtle or outlandish acts of magic. The idea of magic in the game is broadly inclusive of real and imaginary mystical practices and other belief systems as well, so that many Mages do not precisely resemble modern fantasy wizards. Indeed, science itself is taken to ultimately be a form of magic. In 1996, Mage: The Ascension won the Origins Award for Best Roleplaying Rules 1995.

-Metaphysics-

The basic premise of Mage: The Ascension is that everyone has the ability, at some level, to shape reality. This capacity is dormant in most humans, who are known as sleepers. A mage is a character in whom the portion that shapes reality (commonly called the Avatar) is 'Awakened,' leading to the mage having the ability to change reality via willpower, beliefs, and specific magical techniques.

The beliefs and techniques of Mages vary enormously, and the ability to alter reality can only exist in the context of a coherent system of belief and technique, called a paradigm. Such a paradigm provides an explanation for how the universe works and the underpinnings of the understanding of how to change it. For example, an alchemical paradigm might describe the act of wood burning as the wood "releasing its essence of elemental Fire," while modern science would describe fire as "combustion resulting from a complex chemical reaction." Paradigms tend to be nuanced per the individual Mage, but the vast majority belong to broad categories of paradigm, e.g., Shamanism, Medieval Sorcery, religious miracle working, and superscience.


The majority of paradigms differ substantially from the consensus, or the accepted view of reality. Consensus is determined by the Sleepers who (though unawakened) through sheer numbers impart to reality its general rules. When a mage performs an act of magic that does not seriously violate this commonsense version of reality, in game terms this is called coincidental magic. Magic that deviates wildly from consensus is called vulgar magic. When it is performed ineptly, or is vulgar, and especially if it is vulgar and witnessed by sleepers, magic can cause Paradox, a phenomenon in which reality tries to resolve the apparent contradiction. Paradox is difficult to predict and almost always bad for the mage. The most common consequences of paradox include physical damage directly to the Mage's body or 'paradox flaws,' magic-like effects which can for example turn the mage's hair green, make him mute, make him incapable of leaving a certain location, and so on. In more extreme cases paradox can cause Quiet (forms of madness that afflicts mages and may leak into reality), Paradox Spirits (nebulous, often powerful beings which purposively set about resolving the contradiction, usually by direclty punishing the mage), or even the removal of the Mage to a paradox 'realm,' a pocket dimension from which it may be difficult to escape.

In Mage, there is an underlying framework to reality called the Tapestry. This Tapestry, or rudimentary fabric of existence, is constituted by distinctive divisions into different realms, such as the material world and various areas of the spirt world, as well as some of the fundamental rules of reality, including the essence of magic/what is real, in game terms 'quintessence.' Quintessence can have distinctive character, called resonance, including but not limited to dynamic, static, entropic, and other kinds of resonance.

Mage divides mechanics for magic into a system of nine Spheres (which are sometimes construed as in-character ideas as well, more on this later), with which a player can describe thier character's ability to do magic in a structured but relatively open-ended fashion. Their ranking with each Sphere determines how sophisticated their acts of magic in that area can be. For example, changing a sound into another sound is much easier that changing a sound into light, or (even more drastically) changing a sound into a rabbit. Because different mages study different spheres, their abilities have enormous variety. The general power a mage has to change reality (called Arete) also varies from mage to mage, and the process of slowly but steadily increasing that power through a process of personal enlightenment.

-History-

that the mystical beliefs of the common people were not only backward, but dangerous, and that they should be replaced by cold, measurable and predictable laws of nature and respect for human genius. They replaced long-held theologies, pantheons, and mystical traditions with ideas like rational thought and the scientific method. As more and more sleepers began to use the Order's discoveries in their everyday lives, Reason and rationality came to govern their beliefs, and the old ways came to be regarded as misguided superstition. However, The Order of Reason became less and less focused on improving the daily lives of sleepers and more concerned with eliminating any resistance to their chokehold on the minds of humanity.Knighterrant81 18:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tenth Sphere: Telos?

From what I heard (as I followed the idea VERY closely), "Telos", not "Ascension", was the tenth sphere, and even had a rulebook associated with it. I had long thought, on my own, that the tenth sphere was 'Connection', and saw a Virtual Adept site with it's own interpretation (something about data manipulation). In fact, the sourcebook named "Ascension" mentions Telos, avidly, as the name of this elusive sphere. --Ayelis 17:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

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