User talk:Madman2001

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Welcome!

Hello Madman2001, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!  -- SoothingR(pour) 15:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Tibás

See Talk:Tibás for my response to your edit summary question, SqueakBox 15:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tanjung Gemuk

If you know so much about Tanjung Gemuk why don't you improve the article?! --DelftUser 19:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Sorry, I know nothing about Tanjumg Gemuk. Madman 19:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Beat Monks

Hey guy, I wikified the page and included the most pertinent info on the band. Though I know they're obscure, that isn't enough of a reason to delete an article. Since I just created the article yesterday, you should give it some time before nominating it for deletion.

[edit] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sheffield pubs

Hi! I just wanted to let you know that, even though I nominated this article for deletion, I have decided to see if it is possible to save it. I have been through the article removing all of the POV and review-like elements and I have started to expand the rest. With a lot of cleanup I think that it could be saved (although I don't think that it is there yet). Anyway, please take another look at the article and see if my edits change your opinion on the article. Thanks, JeremyA 03:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tlapacoya

Many thanks for copyediting/wikify this article! You did an outstanding job!! --Hurricane111 21:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] article for deletion

Hey Madman, by your edits I know that you enjoy cleaning up wikipedia, but the article that you put up for deletion which I happened to create is very notable. Please see the latest info I added. Anymore evidence of the article's notability, I would be happy to provide. Thank you for keeping the conversation civil. Travb 04:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article: Tramp chair

Thanks for cleaning it up, looks much better now. - Dharmabum420 06:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] re: Stockton Massacre

Right, same to you. Whew! Hard work but rewarding. Pleasure to work with you. Herostratus 00:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

You asked me how I make my maps. In photoshop of course. :)

As for the United States of Greater Austria map, these borders were only proposal, you can see that in the article:

Map which I created for that article is based on the map from the external link in that article. You can see that link here:

I usually use one map as a model and draw another based on that one in photoshop. If you want to draw map with higher quality, you just have to spend more of your free time for drawing and to use options in photoshop. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course, you should to have a good model map on which you will base your work. PANONIAN (talk) 23:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] prettifying

Just {{subst:}} one of the prettytable templates in the table header i.e. {| (You can go by with just {{prettytable}}, the others are for all sort of specific case, suchas centered table. In olmec, it was {{prettytablecenter}}). (note that in practice, the template/s is/are legacy code.) Circeus 01:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mixe-Zoque languages

On the stub about the Mixe-Zoque languages, I got my list from Ethnologue and it showed some specific dialects of languages but I took them out. Then I searched for the list but I could not find any other. When I compared the list on Ethnologue to the list on Mesoamerican languages, the last mixed some of the specific dialects I took out and mixed them with the main languages. I am sorry but I do not know more about it. Tim Q. Wells 01:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Image:Isthmus of Tehuantepec close-up?

I used GTOPO30 data for that map. The detail is limited by the resolution of that dataset. I don't remember specifically, but I don't think I would have downsized the image while constructing the map, and if that's the case that particular dataset cannot be used to make any more detailed of a map. I can also play with the shading and coloring options of the program used to render the map (or try another program) to see if a more suitable map for your area can be made. I'll look into it. --Kbh3rdtalk 17:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Popocatépetl talk page

Hi, Madman,

Dropped a comment on the talk page of Popocatépetl re your recent edit: welcome your response. (I didn't like your deleting the map.)

--Lavintzin 15:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

As far as the map goes, it doesn't make a lot of difference to me. I thought that the article was a little crowded, and that seemed the least interesting of the images and was, as noted, available elsewhere.

By all means, re-insert it. Madman 16:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olmec edit warring

Agreed Madman, and I've set the ball rolling by applying for page protection at WP:RFPP. It seems that we've been bought a few hours' respite in any case since that anon contributor has been blocked for a 3RR violation by Freakofnature, but they will presumably take up cudgels again once the block expires. Would appreciate your help to find suitable wording for the proposed notice on talk:Olmec, as we need ourselves to ensure any claims of bias or 'censorship' are unfounded. Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 01:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second Sino-Japanese War

Hello there Madman2001, I'm here to tell ya that I reverted your changes to Second Sino-Japanese War. They were good copyedit edits, but unfortunately the anon who edited before you (so you pretty much cleaned after his defecation) inserted a bunch of POV and bad setences. Even though your edits were balanced and NPOV, I still think the old version is better. What follows explains the rest, after all. Cheers. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 18:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

<Sigh> Another heroic effort goes for naught. : ) Madman 18:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry :( -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 19:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I checked out the intro section and, indeed, it was more comprehensive than what I had cobbled together on the fly. I'll pull this off my Watch list, since you seem to be watching and to a large extent moderating the article. Indeed, it sounds like there are quite a few folks out there with some pretty strong viewpoints on this matter. Hang in there, and thanks, Madman 21:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Alright. Feel free to check back once in a while. ;) -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 00:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expands

Hi. I think you may have mistaken my adding of expand tags as something random. It's not - it's part of a criteria-driven exercise for identifying articles in need of expansion. Users familiar with the subject matter of these articles will know what needs to be added, and should hopefully remedy the situation in due course. If not the tags can always be removed, or discussed on talk pages. Thanks for your interest though. Are there any you are specifically worried about? SP-KP 00:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I am just concerned that the "Expand" template is ugly, I fear it flags an article as substandard, and I fear that the "remedy in due course" may be a long time in coming. I would have less concern if, when someone flags an article "Expand", they would explain what they would like to see added as per the template. Madman 03:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright violations removed by rewriting offending sections

Hi,

You pointed out the copyright violations in Spanish conquest of Mexico. It was on my mental "to do" list to do something about those eventually. Your "copyvio" notice put it on the top of my list. I have now fixed the copyright violations by rewriting the offending sections. The rewritten article is in Spanish conquest of Mexico/Temp.

What's the next step in getting an admin to replace the copyvio text with the replacement text?

Richard 19:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I have been advised by another Wikipedian that the next step is to ask you to review the rewritten article and agree that the copyright violations have been resolved. Could you do that please?

Richard 16:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Richard, I will do that. I hope to be able to do that today. I was hoping to do that yesterday, but got delayed with my paying job. Thanks for the quick response! Madman 16:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lest you get bored...

I added a comment to Talk:Spanish conquest of Mexico regarding the source of spelling and grammar errors. If you have a penchant for this kind of copyediting, take a whack at the following articles:

Aztec Aztec religion Aztec social structure Human sacrifice in Aztec culture Siege of Tenochtitlan

The source of errors in these articles is pretty much the same, our Aztec expert who is less than proficient in English.

There are other articles related to the Aztec empire which may also need copyediting but the ones listed above are the ones that I've noted as having the most problems.

Enjoy...

Richard 04:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great section on Tlacaelel

That is really well written. I'm not sure if it's any shorter than what was there before but it is absolutely a lot more to the point. It really gets across how important he was. Thanks! --Richard 03:10, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure it is any shorter, either, but I'm glad you liked it! It was your note above that really started me on all this Aztec-related copyediting, lo, those many days ago. Madman 04:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aztec society section in Aztec article vs. Aztec society article

Thanks for your copyedits on the Aztec society section in the Aztec article.

You may have missed the discussion on this topic. We (well, Piet and I) agreed to shorten the Aztec article by moving the "Aztec daily life" stuff to the Aztec society article and to trim the "Aztec daily life" section in the Aztec article to be a summary of the Aztec society article.

Your copyedits are appreciated but I wonder if you could take another look at this text in light of the above decision and then copy the appropriate edits over to the Aztec society section.

P.S. You've been doing a lot of great work with images and formatting and generally improving a bunch of Aztec-related articles. This is much appreciated.

--Richard 19:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words, and thanks for the heads up. I will definitely copy the appropriate edits over to the Aztec society section. Madman 13:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huitzilíhuitl

Hi. The information you removed from the article was good information, at least if my sources are correct. (But I'll double-check what they say about the relationship to Matlalcihuatzin; maybe I misread it.) I wonder why you removed the information, especially the part about making the position hereditary. That seems like an important point to me. Do you have some information that contradicts my sources? --Rbraunwa 18:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Every other source I have reviewed indicates that the position of tlatoani (or hueyi tlatoani) was never hereditary. For example [1], [2], Encarta, and the Aztec article here in Wikipedia, which says "The most important official of Tenochtitlan government is often referred to as the Aztec Emperor. The Nahuatl title, Huey Tlatoani (plural Huey Tlatoque), translates roughly as "Great Speaker". This office gradually took on more power with the rise of Tenochtitlan. By the time of Auitzotl, the title of Emperor had become a more appropriate analogy for this office, although as in the Holy Roman Empire, the title was not hereditary."
Similarly, I did some checking about the relationship between Huitzilíhuitl and Matlalcihuatzin and all the web references referred to her as his daughter.
Overall, I was attempting to use bring your additions in line with the "style" we've been using for the Aztec-related articles (which is one reason I substituted tlatoani for ruler and Lord and removed the term "cacique").
I really enjoyed your addition to the article. There is no doubt that the Aztec ruler articles need beefing up. Thanks for addressing this and I look forward to any other Aztec-related articles you may be working on. Thanks, Madman 00:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Madman, I just uploaded some more information on Acamapichtli. Can you take a look at it, at your convenience? --Rbraunwa 18:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi again. Thanks for your edits on Acamapichtli. If you don't object, perhaps I will continue doing what I've been doing and letting you add the finishing touches. I've worked on a third article now, Chimalpopoca. Clearly your background on the Aztecs is better than mine, and also your knowledge of the conventions that have been adopted at Wikipedia. Rbraunwa 21:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I still plan on writing the footnote about the dates for Huitzilíhuitl; I just haven't gotten to it yet. Rbraunwa 21:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

hey! On June 14th you uploaded the Image:Lake Texcoco c 1519 .png image. On that page you indicated that the "This image is copyrighted. However, the copyright holder has irrevocably released all rights to it", presumeably, because it was your image. If so, I was wondering if you could change the tag from norightsreserved, to something like {{self|GDFL}}. With the no rights reserved one, there is an implication that the image is anothers work, and requires that you e-mail the Wikimedia PR department, and add the {{confirmation}} tag. --Irishpunktom\talk 10:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Done. Madman 12:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tuxtla photos

Mad about you: You asked for more tuxtlas photos. Here are some: http://www.tuxtlas.com/news/events/santa_marta_air/index.html Dongringo

These are gorgeous pictures. One or more of them would be a great addition to Wikipedia. Perhaps the owner would be interested in uploading them?? Madman 15:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Nahuatl language GA nomination news and Q

Hello. The improvements look good. I think this definitely qualifies as a good article. I will add it in a bit.--Esprit15d 17:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Olmec edits you've reverted three times

Since it seems you think there are too many Olmec heads for people to handle, I'll move them to a gallery. Jamidwyer 22:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)Jamidwyer

  • Hey, I think that's a great idea, sir. I was thinking along the same lines. Please do. I would love to see it. BTW, do you have any photos of Olmec artifacts? The Olmec figurines article could certainly use some. Thanks again, Madman 22:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images &c

Hi there Madman. I've been offline the past few days and so only now responding to your post at my talk page. I agree with you that there's a reasonable limit to the number of colossal head imgs needed at the Olmec pg, however the situation seems to be redressed so will keep an eye out for it for now.

I've noted the problems you've run across in the FPC nom for your (fine) Lake Texcoco map, and surely the process itself needs refining to clarify (if indeed there is a consensus) what img formats are preferable to use in cases such as this. I'm not myself that well-versed in the SVG format, but have uploaded to commons an SVG conversion of your file at commons:Image:Lake Texcoco c 1519 .svg. I had to first convert the PNG to BMP and then to SVG, which has blown out the file size a bit- to be improved, you would have to tweak the original file in whatever imaging program you used to create it. Preferably, if you have a version or layer of your file which does not contain any of the text, you could load that into some SVG utility (like the Inkscape one mentioned in the FPC comments), and then add in the text portions & save as SVG- that should (I think) reduce the file size and also take advantage of SVG's facility to record the text as separate elements. Like I say, I'm no great shakes at imaging formats, so there could well be some alternative way to get the same result they are looking for at FPC. Regards, --cjllw | TALK 08:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (RE: Mojarra pictures) No problem.

And yes I have better versions. If you want I can make them available to you. See my response on User_talk:Maunus

Sorry I dont have many better photos from the museum of Xalapa. See again my talk page.--Maunus 14:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok I did have some, check them on my user subpage. You may want to use any of them in an article. Theres also a high resolution pic of the inscription. some mesoamerican photos. --Maunus 15:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I do have photos of Chalcatzingo and Xochicalco but I cannot currently acces them. I will upload as soon as I can and give you a message here when i do. Maunus 18:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maya zero glyphs

Gidday Madman. I've now uploaded a couple of versions of Maya glyphs for zero - I've even done these in proper SVG format ;-)

There's this one, typical of the inscriptions Image:MAYA-g-num-0-inc-v1.svg , and these two, typical of the codices (one aligned vertically, the other horizontally):  

I don't know why the last of these (horizontal) renders much smaller than the other two when you specify the same pixel size in the image tag, nor why the codex versions seem slightly larger than the inscription version- they should all be the same default size. Probably something to do with the s/w that Mediawiki uses to render svg's as png. How do they appear to you - do you use IE as your browser, and if so have you installed an SVG viewer plugin?--cjllw | TALK 04:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

he last one does look smaller, but measuring them it looks like its an Optical illusion. I think they are the same size. Cool glyphs! Sorry for intruding on the talk page. Maunus 08:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Maunus, I'm sure Madman won't mind! What I meant was, it seems I have to manually increase the px specification in the image tag for the last one to get it to display at around the same size. For comparision, here are the two codex-style glyphs (horiz/vert) with the same px specification in the image tag (in this case, I've set both to 20px):  

To me, the second one above looks tiny, it's not until I bump up its px spec to say 40px that it looks halfway decent (the first one here is kept at 20px):  

It's all rather odd, and I gather there's still a few bugs to be ironed out in Mediawiki representation of SVGs. Will see if there's any explanation for this behaviour about somewhere. Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 09:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This is great. Just to be sure (before I insert it into the 0 (number) article ) this shell glyph is used for zero in the Long Count?? If so, I think I'll use the one for monuments then.
Also, how did you do this? Did you draw this freehand and then scan it??
Regarding the "px" specification, I believe that the 20px or 40px refers to the width of the picture. Consequently, if their widths are identical, the vertical glyph will be larger than the horizontal glyph.
Finally, I am glad to know that you have done this using SVG!! : ) Thanks, Madman 12:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Aha! Of course, how bone-headed of me. I'd resized the canvas for these imgs to the same dimensions as the glyphs, so they would fit together nicely, like Image:MAYA-g-num-0-inc-v1.svg this; but of course a natural consquence is that their actual widths are different. I may have to tweak their relative proportions and make the default size a bit smaller and more uniform, so you don't need to specify different px widths to make them appear the same size. Thanks!

The inscription version is supposed to be typical of Classic era Long Count inscriptions, and is prefixed to period glyphs (eg katun) in Initial Series sequences such as 9.0.19.2.4 where it represents a zero count for the period it is affixed to. The codex version also represents zero (can also signify '20' or completion in context when accompanied by a dot).but the codices don't have Long Count dates (it's possible that there are LC graffiti or mural-style dates where this simplified representation is used in that way, would have to check).

The codex version I just created freehand in the application, while for the inscription version I started out with a character from a freeware Maya font, turned it into a png then had the app generate a vector path, which I then modified and tidied up freehand.--cjllw | TALK 23:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a correction to my earlier loose statement (now crossed out above)- the Dresden codex indeed does have some Long Count dates, however these have the numeric portions only (ie the period glyphs are not shown). And it is indeed in this context that the glyph appears, signifying zero (tuns or k'ins or whatever). Cheers,--cjllw | TALK 06:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olmec

Gosh. Thanks you very much for the award! It is much appreciated, and gave me a ray of sunshine too. I wonder if this new editor is a reincarnation of User:Roylee, who also added some bizarre stuff about parallel human evolution in Central America. 14:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re : Matthew Stirling

Thanks! it wasn't very difficult to find good material on Stirling. The only thing I'm still looking for is a copyright-free photograph of him.

Sdsouza 22:21, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've spent a good half-hour combing thru the Internet. I doubt that there is a copyright-free image. I'm thinking we'll need to rely on Fair Use to obtain a photo. Madman 05:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh. Am not sure how to interpret Fair Use yet. Found an excellent image at http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/images/stirling3.jpg, but the org's copyright language sounds restrictive (http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/copyright.htm). Thanks for searching though, and again, thanks for the encouragement. Sdsouza 00:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I read your fair use justification, and while it clarified things for me quite a bit, I wasn't sure I could apply it to an image of T Proskouriakoff that I found at http://www.archaeology.org/0301/reviews/mayanist.html. Apologies for the trouble, but could you please review, for Tatiana Proskouriakoff?. Cheers Sdsouza 22:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, SD, Fair Use is usually a judgement call. This image of Tatiana is probably a photograph (as opposed to a frame from a movie) and the copyright is owned by an individual, which I am more reluctant to "fair use" than one from the Smithsonian, which is a taxpayer-supported research organization that allows its works to be used for educational purposes.
Let me look around myself. If that's the best bet, we may want to go with it. Madman 22:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, am continuing to use this stub for the Tatiana image question, because I didn't want to open up a new one. I have received permission on e-mail from Ms. Char Solomon (biographer of T Proskouriakoff) to use the photographs on her site (http://www.charsolomon.com). I wrote to her using (mostly) the standard Wikipedia template for requesting copyrighted material. Am going ahead and uploading some of the photographs from her site. Sdsouza 07:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree on the unflattering part :). Do you think any of the other photos on http://www.charsolomon.com is more appropriate? Ms. Solomon very kindly sanctioned the use of any of those. Do browse in your spare time, and choose any one. I, or you (the permission mail has already been forwarded to permissions AT wikimedia DOT org) can upload it. Sdsouza 17:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, mea culpa, completely overlooked a message from you. Have changed the photo to one that hopefully won't make her turn in her grave (peace be unto her). Sorry again. Sdsouza 23:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olmec revisited

Hi Madman, I tend to agree with your recent comments at my talk pg, and will weigh-in to the discussion as and when I am able. Unfortunately I'm a little snowed under with work and some other stuff at the moment and so am not presently devoting much time to wp- but when I get the chance I will. Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 08:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Madman I would like to help you in your struggle for objective science, but I really just get angry and I don't really know what is the standard procedure for dealing with that kind of crusaders on wikipedia. If you have any menial tasks in cleaning up the Olmec pages that I might help you out with I would happily do it. Write me on my talk page, otherwise I will stay out of it since I don't have the time nor patience to take on a discussion with an antagonist as rhetorically skilled as mr. winters. Maunus 13:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DYK question

...that Chichen Itza means "At the mouth of the well of the Itza", a Guatemalan people estimated to have a present-day population of 30,000?

Isn't there a word missing after 'Guatemalan'? If it's a archeological dig location, I doubt it has a present-day population either. Could you please expand on what you meant to say with this line? = Mgm|(talk) 08:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Ah, I see the problem the clause refers to the 'Itza' in the quotes, not the 'Chichen Itza' from the first part of the sentence. Either way, people is plural, so I changed it to say "Guatemalan ethnic group" instead. - Mgm|(talk) 08:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Ethnic group works for me. The "Did you know . . ." format makes for convoluted sentence structure at times. Thanks, Madman 08:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Updated DYK query Did you know? was updated. On 30 August 2006, a fact from the article Itza, which you recently nominated, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.
  • I'd like to think I can do such sentences. I hope the one I put up works for you. It's a bit longer than the one I suggested here. --Mgm|(talk) 10:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] italics within italics

I think you should add your rule. It is still just a list of suggestions. Add a link to any reference work, or an article in some archive where they use it, so you can show an example. Wikipedia dropped using italics for quotations about a year ago, but most quotations in older negleted articles still use italics for quotations.

[edit] Moctezuma II

Hi, I am not a student of English syntax, but it seemed to me that the sentences

... Spanish conquerors (whom .. he might have believed to be gods) ... Spanish conquerors (who .. he might have believed to be gods)

impart different meanings. I think the former implies he believed the Spanish (and actually the rest of the sentence then makes no sense), and the latter conveys that he believed the Spanish to be gods. This might just be me, but i thought it was worth nailing down. Cheers, Sdsouza 05:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the explanation. I read through it and that was precisely what I thought I was saying in layman-ish : the Spanish are the subject of the clause (neither Moctezuma nor his belief in their divinity is), and therefore the word to use is who, rather than whom. However, it shouldn't matter as long as people get the meaning right, i guess.
Sdsouza 12:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it does, thanks - time for me to go back to grammar study :). Sdsouza 13:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Mesoamerica images

Hi, on my userpage you mentioned taking pictures of mesoamerican artifacts in the British Museuem. Well, ask and you shall recieve! I've uploaded four, two of them are Olmec. Cheers. Akubra 21:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I uploaded them to the Commons. Akubra 17:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re Olmec

First of all let me draw your attention to The Wrong Version. That's for more or less extreme situations, but I hope you get the idea... I have little knowledge of the topic at hand, so I cannot choose the "right" version to protect without compromising by neutral status in the argument. Hence I protected the last version of the article.

I know you guys are experienced editors (I have many Mesoamerican articles in my watchlist) and I would encourage you to get even more editors knowledgeable editors involved. The point of protection is to force editors to discuss the problem and if Olmeque fails to join the discussion that's to his disadvantage. If Olmeque takes an uncompromising attitude he will be duly warned. However, I cannot go around taking sides in an issue which at the moment seems to arise from one editor's language barrier.

In any case, the edited text of Olmeque's contributions remains in the article history and can be retrieved at a moment's notice. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 12:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I truly think the article should remain protected for a few days, if only to allow people to cool down after the recent revert war. I'll keep an eye on the situation, though. Regards -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 14:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mask image in the Aztec mythology article

I uploaded a different version of the Image:Aztec mask 050910 170205.jpg as I was unaware that there was a "previous" version of it somewhere else. Anyway if you wish to have a look at it and than preferably replace it than here it is: Image:TurquoiseAztecMask.jpg it might be a little less blurry, but I can't say for sure as there is this very blurry area - nose. I don't know if there was a name on the label - I might have ommited this detail while changing the filename back in London. But the rest of the details I put in the description was on the label in the museum for sure. BTW if u still want to know how to make nice photos in museums (and I don't think any of mine Mixtec-Aztec photos is nice as all of them are blurry) check my talk page. Cheers. Z-m-k 21:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

The Editor's Barnstar
message It think you deserve this barnstar for your tireless and generous responses to Clyde Winters, Olmeque and others. I couldn't bear the thought of debating with them, but you could. Paul B 23:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Paul, thank you so very much for the Barnstar. It comes at a great time, because I have been getting worn down a bit: I really just want to add and improve content but lately I've found myself spending great gobs of time just keeping the good articles at at a "good" level. I guess the Second law of thermodynamics applies here in Wikipedia-land as well.

So, bless you, Paul. Your timing is impeccable. Gratefully yours, Madman 00:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested a map?

Can you tell me more about the map that you requested at Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps/Requested and orphan maps? MapMaster 03:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Can I change my mind? I would like a map, but I am thinking instead we could better use a site map of La Venta, detailing the location of the various stelae, monuments, etc listed in the article. I found a map on Spanish Wikipedia here, but it's hard to read and rather blah IMHO even when I get to the image page. Also, I'm not quite sure how to edit it, since it's in SVG format (which, I was told, is the format for maps). Can you do something with this? Madman 03:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I have uploaded the map in Wikipedia Commons: Image:La Venta site plan.png. I first uploaded it as an SVG file, but Wikipedia does not support the fonts I used and left some other weird-osity in the image, too, so i went with PNG. I leave the placement to you MapMaster 20:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olmec improvements, La Venta

Gidday Madman: alas and yes, my wikipedia-available time has been somewhat restricted these past few weeks, hopefully the situation will improve soon. I've responded to your questions over at my talk page. Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 05:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Hola again. I might've known it, but I still have not been able to find enough time to do the foreshadowed updates to Olmec, and will be offline for the weekend; I'll see what I can do next week. I have however managed to make a couple of suggestions at talk:La Venta for some areas of potential expansion. Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 08:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] La Corona

Updated DYK query Did you know? was updated. On 22 September 2006, a fact from the article La Corona, which you recently nominated, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Mgm|(talk) 18:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Europe map

Hi Madman,

I see you added Image:BlankMap-Europe no boundaries.svg. Is there any chance you could help me out with a similar version, but with the national borders showing? I've been looking for exactly this.. and the one you uploaded is so close, but not quite :)

I've been trying to mess around with an SVG editor myself, but can't get it to do what I want. Since you seem to know what you're doing, I hope it won't be too much for me to ask. Thanks a lot! EuroSong talk 12:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me see what I can do. Give me a day or so. Madman 12:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Eurosong: I have uploaded what I hope will meet your needs: Image:Blank Map of Europe -w boundaries.svg. Alas, I am not an expert on this. In fact, I am a novice and built the earlier map just to become acquainted with Inkscape software. I am afraid that the Image:Blank Map of Europe -w boundaries.svg map does not have a very high resolution (at least, as I define it). This is an artifact of the map I used (Image:BlankMap-Europe-v5.png).
In any case, good luck and let me know how this turns out. Madman 23:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Madman, thank you very much for your hard work: I greatly appreciate the fact that someone took their time to try and help! I hope you did not spend too long on it :)
Unfortunately though, it is not what I need: the resolution is far too low. I could have adapted that png myself. What I need is an adaptation of the high-res SVG Image:BlankMap-World4.svg. This is my problem, which I have been unable to solve yet. Thanks again for your efforts.. maybe I can find another way, if I spend more time on it. ALl the best, EuroSong talk 12:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mesoamerican lectures

Hey there Madman! Not sure in which part of the US you are based, but over the next month or so there's a whole bunch of Mesoamerican/Precolumbian lectures and presentations coming up. One or more of these might be near where you are, and you might be interested in attending if you can. Mike Ruggeri maintains an updated listing of these here. If you're able to go along to any, bring your camera and notebook, & maybe we can get some more material. Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 00:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up, CJLL. Keep up the good work, Madman 14:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you very much for your message!

Dear Mr. Madman2001 ;

Thank you very much for your message with Japanese translatation. Since I can read and understand English,please don't trouble yourself for Japanese.But I'm poor at speaking and writing in English like most Japanese people.

‘Commons’ is not necessarily transrated,but described コモンズin Japanese.

Stela is translated into Japanese with 石碑（seki hi）. 石（’seki’ means stone）碑（’hi’ means inscriptions in stone or wooden slab） →stone slab erected for commemorative purposes inscribed, carved in relief.


Please excuse my poor English.

with my best regards,Siyajkak 12:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2006.9.25.14:28(UTC)in wikipedia:ja

[edit] Barnstar!

The Original Barnstar
For your hardwork and dedication to making Wikipedia a better place. I, Sharkface217, award you this Original Barnstar. Good job! :-) Sharkface217 04:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the Barnstar, Sharkface. I had really pretty much given up on Wikipedia, despite over 2000 quality edits, due to the difficulty in maintaining quality: too much vandalism, too many well-meaning but non sequitor edits, too many POV edits, and lack of support/recognition, among other problems. Due to your random act of kindness, I may just reconsider. Madman 17:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


Preventing one person from leaving Wikipedia forever will make all our work here worth it. I hope you do not leave this site forever. As I have learned in my year(s) (it's been more than a year? I'm getting old!), there may be 2 million or so English Wikipedia accounts, but only a small fraction of those (less than 10,000 by my estimates) are actually "good" contributors.
Hoping that you don't leave, Sharkface217 03:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Gidday Madman, I'd just like to echo Sharkface's sentiments to express the hope that you continue on with wikipedia, even if only in a limited, variable or occasional capacity. I had noticed you'd not been around much of late and had wondered whether you were on a break of sorts. Your contributions have been sorely missed around Mesoamerican articles, and no doubt in the other fields improved by your diligent and attentive edits. While there are certainly plenty of grounds for frustration around here, and at times it feels like going backwards in trying to at least maintain, let alone improve, the quality and scope of articles, I think that on balance and in the long run a positive difference can and has been made by the efforts of such clear-minded folk as your good self.
Take whatever recharging time you need, and if there are any battles becoming too tiresome then call out for some assistance or maybe look at something else for a while, (eventually) others will step in.
So hope to see you around. If you do decide to concentrate on other things, then all the best for you and your future endeavours. Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 05:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Echoing CJLL Wright's thoughts, another barnstar

I second CJLL Wright's thoughts. Here's a more specific barnstar.

The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
For many quality edits to Aztec-related articles, I award this barnstar to Madman2001 who has helped to make a dramatic improvement in articles related to the Aztec civilization.Richard 15:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Welldeserved they both are. Cheers Madman! Maunus 16:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Aw, shucks, guys. This is just wonderful. To see such fantastic comments from such top drawer folks are yourself, I may just get back into the game. Thanks, Madman 18:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The image on your page

That is the funniest Halloween (?) picture I've ever seen! —  $PЯINGrαgђ  Always loyal! 05:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hallowe'en?? Hallowe'en??? Yes, it is! Thanks for your comment. Madman 06:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I have to reiterate that, Madman2001—the best user page I have seen on Wikipedia! (And thanks for tidying up so many pages.)—Stombs 00:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for copyedit

Hi Madman if you want to start out with some uncontroversial editing I would appreciated if you could do some copyediting brushups of Mayan languages which I hope to nominate for GA this week and later FA. Maunus 21:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I would be honored to do this. Let me see if I can get to it today. Madman 13:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maps for Mayan languages

Thanks for the Mayan Maps !!
Thanks for the Mayan Maps !!

Just to let you know that am very excited about the graphics that you are going to make, I am sure they will spice up the page and make it worthy for FA status. I hope you have time to go about it soon. Also I have added a bunch of new sections that could use a second glance by a neutral reader. Maunus 15:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks fo the great new map. There are some minor corrections to be made though:
Eastern branch > Western Branch
Western Branch > Eastern Branch
Yukateck > Yukatek
Poptí > Jakaltek (Poptí)
K'che' > K'iche'
Tz'untujil > Tz'utujil
Achi is missing from the Quichean proper branch.
Also graphically I would prefer a serif font like the one I used in the other map, but I'll leave it up to your taste to decid if thats appropriate. However the apostrophes used should be straight (') looking like commas. I would also change the yellowish background colour which looks kind of dull white or something crisper would be preferrable in my taste and the letters should be compltely black (and weren't you going to assign colour codes to the branches?). Maybe the fuzzy colour and letters is a problem with the resolution? or maybe it would look more crisp in SVG format instead of PNG. Also Homunq had the idea to add the approximate years of splitting by glottochronology and applying speaker numbers to all the branches - I think this would be cool but a bit more laborous Maunus 09:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your diligent changes. I have one more request. Could you make a distinction in colour between the qanjobalan and cholan branch and between the mamean and quichean branch. It would be nice if it we a darker and a lihgte shade of the same colour. e.g. Cholan light blue, qanjobalan blue - mamean pinkish and quichean magenta. something like that. Maunus 09:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
One more little thing...Could you make the background white? (that creamy coloured background makes me dizzy)Maunus 11:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title of the Spanish conquest of Mexico article

User:Kortiz has raised the question of whether this article is appropriately named. Your opinion is solicited and welcomed.

--Richard 01:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for fixing images

You did the right thing on Gulf of Mexico! Looks much better. Thanks! Mattisse 23:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maya Tree

Hi Madman, sounds good. When the two maps differ please follow the already existing classification since there are some errors in the french one. Thanks. ·Maunus· tlahtōlli 08:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks madman, that's a really nice map! One change though: Kaqchikel and tzutuhil are closer to eachother than to k'iche, and they should form their own forked node of the quichean proper node. K'iche' is closer to achi than to Kaq/Tzu (in fact linguistically they are considered dialects of one language but achi is given language status because of the longstanding ethnic division between k'iche and achi peoples who were at war before the conquest) this means that k'iche and achi should also form a node unto themselves off parallel to the kaq/tzu node off the quichean proper branch.·Maunus· tlahtōlli 13:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
You are right - Q'anjob'alan-Chujean should be one of two nodes off the western branch with cholan-tzeltalan being the other. It may be a bit confusing but the eastern branch is the same as quichean-mamean and contains only those two subbranches.·Maunus· tlahtōlli 16:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks great! Thanks Madman!·Maunus· tlahtōlli 11:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: It is considered poor form to give yourself awards

  • With correspondence to your message:

If you read the Regulations regarding service awards, you are allowed to give yourself service awards. As for Noobiemacnoss1, he's is my friend and he is considering making anime related edits, and Happyman_oz_123 and I have no idea. Hpfan9374 23:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] possible socks

thanks for the info. please let me know by email or on my talk page if you notice any clear violations like using a sock to avoid a block, or vote stacking. Thx in adv --Trödel 02:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It is considered poor form to give yourself awards

Please see Wikipedia:Service awards, and read the emboldened text stating: "This is one award that is intended to be given to yourself." You can simply award yourself the badge, if you meet the eligibility requirements. Hpfan9374 23:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Site map for Teopantecuanitlan??

Hey Madman - I have a few articles about Teopan, and if I remember correctly, there might be maps in them. I'm not sure how scanning those and uploading them to wikipedia might work legally (I haven't really dealt with that issue yet). I'll check them out when I get the chance and get back to you. Peace -- Oaxaca dan 06:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess its a moot point anyway on my end - the articles I have lack site maps. Can't seem to track one down. Other then tracking down people who actually worked there, I'm not sure what else to do. hmmm... Well, I'll keep my eyes out for anything out there and will let you know if I find something useful. I did see some nice architectural images online, but again, there might be copyright issues involved. Take care, Oaxaca dan 03:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kudos (Olmec article)

Madman, I just wanted to drop you a line a give you some credit for the Olmec influences on Mesoamerican cultures article - very well done. Its a very strong piece that covers a rather complex (and somewhat controversial) topic very nicely. And I agree with you in using quotes from archaeologists. Peace -- Oaxaca dan 15:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

Updated DYK query On 14 February 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Olmec influences on Mesoamerican cultures, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--ALoan (Talk) 13:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

Updated DYK query On 17 February 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article El Manatí, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Majorly (o rly?) 17:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An article which you started, or significantly expanded, Juxtlahuaca, was selected for DYK!

Updated DYK query On February 26, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Juxtlahuaca, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Thanks for your contributions! Nishkid64 18:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Geez Louise Madman - what is that, 3 DYK's in 12 days? Well done man, well done. By the way, I did a little editing of the page - tried to tidy some stuff up, added wiki-links, etc. - hope you don't mind. Peace -- Oaxaca dan 19:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

Congratulations with the DYK's. Yes the FA run is a bit tough - they are right in a lot of stuff but also do exaggerrate a bunch. Forexample it is not "outrageously underreferenced". And most of the bad prose is a matter of taste - If I were the only one to have edited I could understand that my non-native english might have made it less brilliant prose than it should be, but we have been many editors working on it most of whom are native english speakers. But what the hell - FA or no FA it is still the bst article about a language family on Wikipedia right now - not even Indo-European languages can compete.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to chime in with encouragement on both counts- kudos to Madman again for the DYK work, and endorsing the content and relative quality assessment of the Mayan langs. article regardless of the eventual outcome this time around. FA can be a hard road and serendipity plays at least some part in it, as the degree of scrutiny is variable from case to case. However I hope we're not too discouraged from this or future FAC efforts, and the detailed comments received are valuable pointers. And since I often find myself envious of your turn of phrase Maunus I wouldn't worry about prose impediments on that score.
There's still time (generally a couple of weeks) to respond and revise the article while the FAC remains open, and at least clean up the actionable objections. Some of the more intangible ones will be harder to address (talk:Sylvanus Morley came in for a bit of a kicking over its prose style months after its FA passed, it's hard to account for all tastes). I'll do what I can, though I'll shortly be away travelling for about a week or so. --cjllw | TALK 13:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

Updated DYK query On 5 March 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Remojadas, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--ALoan (Talk) 17:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your recent run of Meso-American DYKs - it nice to see a bit of cultural and regional diversity in an effort to beat the inevitable systemic bias in our coverage. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the comment on my talk page. You goal may not be to counter the systemic bias, but you are achieving that :) Keep up the good work! -- ALoan (Talk) 17:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Red Palace (Olmec site)?

Hey Madman - I was procrastinating over here and trying to track down a couple of articles for this page: User:Skysmith/Missing topics about Archaeology and Paleontology. One page this guy Skysmith is looking for is an Olmec site called "Red Palace" - I've never heard of it (which doesn't mean much), and seeing how you seem to be our resident Olmec expert, I thought i would throw it your way. Have you ever heard of a site called Red Palace? or perhaps its an architectural complex within another site? Perhaps its an english translation of spanish or something... dunnno... Anyway, not a big deal, as I was just curious. Take care -- Oaxaca dan 15:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The Red Palace is a structure at San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan that was likely an elite residence (at least according to Richard Diehl). Google "Red Palace" "San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan" for some mentions. I haven't seen anything exhaustive on the Red Palace - it always seems to be mentioned but never fully explored. Maybe you could write an article on it.  : ) Madman 18:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks my man. According to this article (Flannery et al. 2005 - http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/102/32/11219), its even less then an architectural complex:

A second example involves architecture. At the moment, our only confirmed Olmec residence is a modest wattle-and-daub house found at the site of La Venta by W. F. Rust (figure 2.3 of ref. 30). BNG, however, wish to give the impression that whereas highland chiefs lived in wattle-and-daub houses, Olmec leaders lived in palaces (ref. 12, p. 1068). Their reference to a "Red Palace" at San Lorenzo clearly implies a residence with the ground plan of a palace, such as the early example found by Spencer and Redmond (28) at Tilcajete, Oaxaca. In reality, however, Red Palace is simply the excavator's nickname for an amorphous patch of hematite-stained sand on which Monument 57, a broken basalt column, was found (24). A stone column that once supported a roof (if that is what Monument 57 was) is more likely to have been associated with a temple or other public building than a chiefly residence. It is ironic, indeed, that the most hyperbolic descriptions of San Lorenzo's architecture come from authors who have not actually excavated there. The less hyperbolic view of the site's current excavator is that "monumental mounded architecture arranged around plazas does not appear at San Lorenzo in the Early Preclassic period" (i.e., before 2800 B.P.). She adds that later Middle Preclassic architecture in the site center was not superimposed on any impressive earlier buildings (ref. 31, p. 98).

You should check out the article - written by Flannery, Marcus, and pretty much everyone else - it puts the smack-down on one-way trade models (espoused by Blomster, Neff, and Glascock [BNG]) between the lowland Olmec and highland areas. At the least, it serves as a good citation for the Olmec Influences article, and might be of interest to you (if you haven't seen it already). Peace -- Oaxaca dan 19:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I've read thru most of this, as well as the BNG paper, and the BNG response to this paper. I It does get rather contentious.
Here's what Diehl, who literally wrote the (most recent) book on Olmecs says: "Cyphers' recent excavations in the area have revealed the reason for such wealth of sculpture: this was San Lorenzo's "Royal Compound", home to its rulers. It included a residence dubbbed the "Red Palace, a workshop where artisans carved sculptures and utilitarian tools from basalt and several ritual settings that included monumnets and an aqueduct. The Red Palace is a large structure with red gravel floors and mud walls plastered with red sand." It goes on to refer to a "huge columnar roof support" and other features. I'm not ready to sign on to this being a "palace", but Flannery and Marcus have their own agenda as well.
Thanks for the lowdown. I will add that reference to the Olmec influences on Mesoamerican cultures article. Madman 22:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Flannery and Marcus have an agenda? Surely you jest my friend! -- Oaxaca dan 23:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I added a bit from that other 2005 Flannery et al. paper in the article. Thanks for the input.
Getting back to the original issue, I personally don't think that the "Red Palace" is an important (enough) article topic. Madman 00:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured picture candidates

Could you please vote in my image?

--Ricardo Ramírez 21:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Las Limas Monument 1

It could be just me, but isn't that first note in there missing a page number? - Mgm|(talk) 10:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

Updated DYK query On 14 March 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Las Limas Monument 1, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Q'anjobal

Hi Madman. I may be the one guilty of inadvertently deleting the Q'anjobal section from the Maya language article, which I am in the midst of cleaning up. I had already noticed its absence and was hollering at Maunus about it! Thanks for restoring it, and I'll try not to commit any more accidental "vandalism" (assuming I was the one). Alan --A R King 12:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Hey Madman - you seem to know your way around images quite well, and was wondering if you could lend me a hand or point me in the write direction - I'm currently tooling around on the Maya diet and subsistence article, and was hoping to throw in some food related images - in particular codex, carvings, monument depictions, etc. Do you know of any decent ones? or perhaps you could show me where to search for them... Thanks in advance, and I'll talk to you later. -- Oaxaca dan 03:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Long Count

Hi, The other day you reverted an edit at Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar with the comment "Revert to last version by, er, me myself. Folks, before changing this again, let's discuss on Talk page. Thanks,"

The values I put there were taken directly from the source listed at the end of the paragraph. If that is the source we are using, we have to use the values it says. Any other values MUST be justified by their own sources. If you think other numbers are more accurate, fine, but you have to find a source to back that up. Until then, we'll just have to use the numbers in the book.

For a topic such as this -- with a lot of controversy, misunderstandings, and obscurity in the way -- citing sources and backing up claims is essential. That whole paragraph is referring to Forest of Kings, so the dates in Forest of Kings will be used.

I really don't see any debate here. The text on page 430 isn't ambiguous about this at all. I have no objection to including other numbers, but you must put them in their own section with their own references. I'm restoring my edits.

Kundor 12:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

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