Talk:Madison, Wisconsin

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How to add to the main contents? I feel there should be a science category to complete the arts, culture, history and athletics sections. Can I just do this and add stuff I know about? Or should a page of substance be made first and then added?

[edit] The Lakes

How could no mention of Madison's 4 beautiful lakes make it into the article? If you mention that the city is on an isthmus, you should also mention the two lakes that border it, Mendota and Monona. It also wouldn't hurt to mention the independent newspaper we have, "The Isthmus."

If you feel a change is needed, feel free to make it yourself! Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone — including you — can edit any article by clicking the edit this page tab at the top of the page. You don't even need to log in, although there are several reasons why you might want to. Wikipedia convention is to be bold and not be afraid of making mistakes. If you're not sure how editing works, have a look at How to edit a page, or try out the Sandbox to test your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Dori | Talk 01:08, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, User:Comrade009. Feel free to start a section on Madison's lakes. (Mendota, Monona, Kegonsa... what is the fourth?) And welcome to Wikipedia!

By the way, Wikipedia does have at least one picture of Lake Mendota in it... take a look at Statue of Liberty. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 01:25, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and was it around here someone once said they wanted to keep the size the same as "comparable" sized cities. That editorial judgement is kinda weak, for example, Rockford has a greater population than MSN, but when you talk about impact and influence, well...there you go.

I got a couple of pictures Dori | Talk 01:54, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Lake Monona

Lake Mendota

Please tell me that you also got a good photo of the (Wright-designed) convention center we can use? --Dhartung | Talk 08:49, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Does the one I have already uploaded at Monona Terrace work? I also took a 180° panorama but it didn't come out that well. It's hard to get a good image without being on a boat or on a helicopter. Dori | Talk 01:45, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

That's nice enough. The view I had in mind was across the lake from John Nolen Drive, but this works. --Dhartung | Talk 02:12, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do next time it's sunny and I have some time. Dori | Talk 02:17, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

Well, there's this one, of course... from the Statue of Liberty article. :-) [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 02:31, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How did this get up without the Census demographic info added by the bot? Can someone put it in? Moncrief 18 Feb 2004

I merged it in from Madison (city), Wisconsin. At some point I suppose the entry ought to be sorted into headings as prescribed in WikiProject Cities... --Tantalate 14 Mar 2004

[edit] As-yet-unsupported statements

I've removed these as empty and without factual support. They probably can be supported but they can't go in there just on an editor's say-so:

Madison is considered by many to be one of the best cities to live in...
- How about: http://www.mensjournal.com/feature/0406/bestplaces.html

Sure, that would be fine. How to phrase it?

In 2004, Men's Journal ranked Madison as the second-best place to live in its list of small cities in the United States.. It noted that "various publications have declared Madison one of the best places to live for entrepreneurs, hipsters, women, college sports fans, design professionals, barflies, and health nuts"

I dunno, you decide and go ahead and put it in. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 12:27, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It has a rapidly growing technology field, especially in biotechnology, and is said to be "the next Silicon Valley" or "Austin, TX."

These need some kind of citation or reference. Every city is considered to be one of the best cities to live in—by its boosters. I believe Madison frequently scores high in various rankings of cities but the specific ranking should be mentioned... during the seventies it was actually ranked the best in some list of rankings but I don't remember which, and that was, of course, a while ago.

Re technology and biotechnology: a short mention of important new companies in these fields that are located in Madison would be a good way to make this point. "is said to be 'the next Silicon Valley'" is silly. (However, if some important business magazine such as Forbes or Fortune actually said this and the citation can be given, then it would be legitimate to put this in). Dpbsmith 10:49, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I just slightly reworded and added a citation for the reference to "50 most gay-friendly places to live." The closest I could find was a mention on the Greater Madison Convention & Visitors Bureau website about a 2005 book, 50 Fabulous Gay-Friendly Places to Live. Since that was the last statement using the citation needed template, I also deleted that template for that section. Jesseoneill 15:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I included a link to the Madison press release talking about that book. One down, lots more to go...--Baron Larf 21:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

If someone needs a photo from Madison, let me know. I have a pic of the capitol that shows more detail, but might need to be rotated (I still suck at taking pictures). Dori | Talk 19:54, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

At this point we have two, and that's certainly not definitive of Madison. What we might want to do next is look at giving the Capitol its own article. --Dhartung 09:04, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually make that three as I just uploaded

. Is there an image in specific that you are looking for? Dori | Talk 20:56, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

Those are great photos! I have no complaints at all. --Dhartung | Talk 01:52, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have nominated this picture as a featured picture candidate. Visually stunning in my opinion. Royalbroil 04:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It's nice, but I predict a speedbump or two. It's misaligned, and it doesn't show the whole subject. The first is fixable. --Dhartung | Talk 04:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul

Well, I overhauled the entire article, particularly by establishing sections on the pattern of other similarly-sized cities. There were too many random paragraphs (although most of them were at least cohesive). Now the navigation is in place (I left a couple blanks for the future, though).

I don't believe I added anything specifically except for the distance from Milwaukee and the bit on Rhythm & Booms. I definitely weeded the writing pretty aggressively, but I don't think I eliminated anything particularly important. This all started because of a sentence about King street that used variations on development three times! So I hope what's left is not only more navigable but more readable as well.

Hints for down the road might include, once there's a real history section, moving the bits about the counterculture and party/riot problems into it. A paragraph on the relationship of the university to the city (tail wagging dog, etc.) might be nice as well. There's nothing yet on Madison's thriving arts and music culture, either. --Dhartung 09:04, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Largest, biggest, best...

There have been some unsubstantiated claims recently made about some of Madison's features. [1] Anyone have any sources? Otherwise they should be removed. Cheers. --Baron Larf 03:37, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

PhDs per capita appears unlikely based on this 1994 data, in which Madison ranks 15th. [2]

Rhythm & Booms makes the "largest in the Midwest" claim itself here. [3] But it should be reported as a claim.

The bicycling figure relates to manufacturing capacity. [4]

--Dhartung | Talk 21:40, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Excessive external links

Wikipedia is not a repository for links; there does not need to be a link for every single newspaper, television station or radio station in the city. --Baron Larf 19:49, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Yes there does. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Good edits btw. I was expecting to disagree w you on more than the external links, but I've looked over each of your edits here, and found all of them beneficial, other than the removal of those links of course. I restored the links, and would mention that I have alteady made use of them personally at least once, and I don't even love in the area anymore. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:25, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the existence of external links, but the sheer number of them devoted only to media in the main article page seems excessive. I have created other pages for each media type and moved the links there. Neither New York City, Los Angeles nor London have links to every single TV and radio station. I cannot find any featured article devoted to a city with this many media links. I think that WP:NOT is pretty clear on this point. Cheers. --Baron Larf 11:12, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

All of the links were moved to the various "List of Madison YYYYY". If we look at other featured articles about cities, we don't see huge lists of links. They are more appropriate in the subarticles. slambo 11:09, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

I find links on like a day of the month, or a day by itself, or a year totally unnecessary in many articles I come across. If I am reading that a person was born on such and such a date, why would I require a hyperlink to that day, that month or that year? Why would I need a hyperlink on the word woman? In Madison it would be useful to put a hyperlink for Madison Metro because a tourist might reasonably not know there is a website for it, but it would not be useful to hyperlink each bus line!Kyle Andrew Brown 20:46, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The date links are for formatting the display according to logged-in users' preferences. It's my understanding that dates aren't formatted if they aren't linked. slambo 20:59, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Precisely -- see Date formatting --Dhartung | Talk 07:02, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nice additions

great additions Slambo on rail. Circus trains used to take that rail corridor line which was I belive the Rockville RR? And they brought coal into the campus power plant via that route.

Thanks. The Ringling Brothers circus train usually parks along Campus Drive when they're in town, and the UW heater still gets coal deliveries by rail along the same line. The MG&E plant east of the Capitol also gets coal by rail and uses a building that used to be a freight station for (if I remember correctly) the Milwaukee Road. I've got more I can add to the Transportation section, but kept it simple for the moment. slambo 11:01, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

I think that's more detail than is warranted. In any case, it remains a critical WSOR corridor, not just a delivery route, see Wisconsin rail map (PDF). --Dhartung | Talk 18:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

What am I thinking, it was 3am in the morning, make that I think it was the Rock Island Railroad.

Ah, the Rock Island didn't run into Wisconsin (as far as I know). slambo 01:25, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

gee, this is going to be a search to recall, I know one thing, it was not the Milwaukee Road! It will show on one of those USGeological Survey Maps which I have somewheres in the attic...Kyle Andrew Brown 02:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The primary railroads in the area were originally the Milwaukee Road (to Watertown, Milton, & Mazomanie), the Chicago & Northwestern (to Dodgeville, Janesville, Milwaukee, & Baraboo) and the Illinois Central (via Monroe). --Dhartung | Talk 09:11, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 85 miles of unreality!

In poiitics after the neat Dreyfus quote is added: "a phrase that has since been applied to other cities." I would go for deleting that because in its wordiness it detracts from the excellent quote and this article is about Madison and if it's applied elsewhere to other cities let that stand on its own.Kyle Andrew Brown 21:44, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I would concur, since I not only don't know of it being since applied to other cities, but it was said specifically about Madison, so if it's been said about other cities, it would be appropriate there to mention that it was originally said of Madison. To add it here not only detracts from the excellence of the quote (which isn't necessarily good grounds for removing it), but it has nothing to do with Madison (which is good grounds for removing it). Btw. tildes...tildes... :-)~ Tomer ^TALK 05:01, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Famous Madisononians

isnt the olympic skater guy from Madison. And was the star of Bonnie on ABC (also a movie star, had great part in Jerry McQuire) is she from MSN or just lives there now?

Do you mean Dan Jansen? He is from West Allis. Bonnie Hunt is a native Chicagoan and her husband is from Madison. I've been adding some pages to the People from Wisconsin category lately; some were surely from Madison. HollyAm 23:05, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Quick answers HollyAm and you didn't even "call a friend."Kyle Andrew Brown 01:31, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I added a brief mention of John Roach: he lives in Madison and writes sometimes for the Isthmus. He co-wrote 'The Straight Story' along with Mary Sweeney (who I think also comes from Madison - but that may need to be checked). Lynch comes to Madison quite a but - usually Thanksgiving with his wife.

[edit] Sources

At: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/m/ma/madison,_wisconsin.htm : it appears a great deal of material mirrors Wikipedia. I style edited economy earlier today when it appeared and then found the original at this site. What is the protocol for this? Is the referenced site mirroring Wiki and if so what is the expectation that Wiki is acknowledged? I do understand that Wiki is in the public domain. But isn't it supposed to be cited?

The quote for Lee Dreyfus is found at: http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/column/moe/index.php?ntid=48667&ntpid=

At: http://danenet.wicip.org/hmi/capitalidea/ideahomepage.html : there are lots of ideas here, I particularly liked the memory of Rennebohm's "Rennes". I like to see it work into a paragraph of historical nostalgia that is not of the Vietnam War memory type.Kyle Andrew Brown 23:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Kyle, see Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks for more information. here it has been determined that the site only correctly credits Wikipedia for users running Javascript. Individual editors are encouraged to contact infringing sites and let them know of infringement or license violations.

Thanks for tracking down those sources, though. --Dhartung | Talk 23:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I see how Wiki is cited at the bottom of the mirror. Is this an example of remote loading?Kyle Andrew Brown 00:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Since I just pulled it up and it did not reflect your most recent edit, it is not remote loading. In fact, it's at least two months out of date. --Dhartung | Talk 06:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

On mirrors: what about this one at QuickSeek.com? At the bottom, it states (c) Quick Seek, Inc. I saw no mention of Wikipedia anywhere - and I suspect this entry is not alone, given the purpose and focus of QuickSeek.com. DavidDouthitt (Talk) 17:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks/Pqr#Quickseek.com. --Dhartung | Talk 20:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Roach

Here's a source for John Roach: Roach's IMDB page. I guess he only co-wrote on that one movie, but his website documents his history in TV. He also has a column in Madison magazine.

[edit] Mayor

Baron I dont agree they mean the same thing.

"Dyke was viewed by students as a direct antagonist in efforts to protest the Vietnam War."

vs mine:

"The Mayor, alarmed by the campus riots which destroyed commercial and university property, was fingured as the authority figure trying to stiffle dissent against the Vietnam War."

Your revert puts it on Dyke's back that that he was against Vietnam protests. When he orginally sent the local police out it was clearly to protect the property on State Street, especially after the burning of the Kroger food stores which led Kroger to move out the the State.

I can certainly SHARE with you an understanding of antagonism to Dyke for he was certainly villified, but I believe that the error he made was not in being an angagonist to the war but his error was in having the City Police come to be viewed as against the war movement. Again, I restate, Dyke initially got sucked into all this by sending in the police to protect property - not to stop anti-war expression - and I contend my writing accurately states this.

Also, it would be difficult to say he was an antagonist to in efforts to protest because the police were predominately stationed on State Street where the property was. When protest rallys on the Mall and in the Southeast Dorms were held Mayor Dyke and the Madison Police did not attempt to stop the rallys. Ralph Hanson the Campus police chief managed the effort to protect University property when protesters threw rocks at the buildings.

I think fingured as a close approximation to avoid POV because it does not state that either side was correct in its assumptions.

Your revert, while it is a "correct" statement also leads to leaving out the actual motivation on Dyke's part to protect property which led to the conclusions about him by the protest movement.

BTW it was not until the State Police and National Guard were called in after Sterling Hall that Dyke and the Madison Police were completely taken off the hook as being identified against the protest movement. And the State Police were called in not to stop protest, but to protect property.

So I urge you go reconsider your deletion of my text or to compose one that reflects the statement of history that I narrate. I have not rejected your revert, but state that it avoids recognizing a fundamental dynamic.Kyle Andrew Brown

Thanks Dhartung, I can live with that. How about a short expansion: in efforts "to use the Madison Police". I say this because a great deal of the error was in how Madison Police were particularly inept in how they got drawn into the drama. You know, Ralph Hanson of Campus Security was this really likeable guy and at night I was with him on Bascom Hill during a riot and he was completely unfazed and good natured and only interested in protecting property. That just isn't the image Madison police had. Kyle Andrew Brown 15:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Architecture

Dhartung, concrete bunker is as close as I can remember the wording the I saw that described - - is it called the Humanities Building or is it renamed? the one on the corner of State and Park. They also plan to demolish Van Hise, which I guess is totally inadequate inside, but: when it was first built it looked huge, now it looks like a quaint SimCity building that on the exterior I think looks just grand and the view from the top floors is spectacular - - I want to lead a Save Van Hise March!

Driving around the Square last week at night I was really struck by how unique it is, reflecting the County Square design of, where commerce surrounds the seat of government. Unique in that after the demise of the Square during the shift of commerce to East/West Towne it has been reborn into almost a movie set. I'd like to see the uniqueness of this transformation in the article. What do you think?

Like what you did with Garbage, and thanks for keeping Viroqua in, verry much!Kyle Andrew Brown 18:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Gee, I always thought Van Hise looked kind of nice. What are they saying about the "Lake Lab" (Laboratory of Limnology), a "brutalist" building if I ever saw one? If "brutalist" means "cheap and cheesy," that is. (Meaning no disrespect to cheese, of course).19:20, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Odd choice of words. The word actually comes from the French for "raw" as in "raw concrete", and it's associated with heavyset, overbearing official buildings with few windows. There were always rumors that brutalist architecture was common on campuses because they were "riot-proof" but this isn't usually supported by evidence. Definitely a number of federal buildings of the 1970s were done this way deliberately, such as FBI headquarters and some of our overseas embassies. But yes, the Limnology building is surely Brutalist. --Dhartung | Talk 19:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Re cheap: prior to the "brutalist" style it was generally felt that raw concrete looked, well, unfinished and needed to be clad in something nice-looking. I always thought it was suspiciously convenient that architects could simply omit the costly cladding or other finish and maintain that they were doing this for "style." I remember hearing some architecture mavens gushing "Look! you can see the grain of the plywood in the concrete!" Well, yeah, but since when is plywood considered to any better-looking than concrete?

There are more architectural advances which are based on saving money, time, or materials than you're aware, then. --Dhartung | Talk 00:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

One of Frank Lloyd Wright's more famous, though modest, designs is the original "usonian" house located on Toepher Avenue in the Westmorland neighborhood. The house was built in 1936 for Herbert Jacobs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UsoniaDWMelcher 13:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] International character edit

August 25 user 04:45, 25 August 2005 165.76.81.11 made internal article edit that says "マディソン"

Could not find it in the article and I'm guessing it does not belong. Can anyone find it and deal with it?Kyle Andrew Brown 14:30, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it was the ja interwiki link as seen in this diff. slambo 15:57, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1,000

24.177.125.211 Anonymous, please give us basis of your change. Kindly in the future for this article when you re-revert give us on the talk page some discussion. This is not a war revert site.Kyle Andrew Brown 04:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Named after who?

"Being named for a much-admired founding father who had just passed away, and having streets named after every founding father, also helped attract votes."

I grew up in Madison, and I've always heard that the city was named after Dolley Madison (James Madison's wife). I don't have a copy of Mollenhoff's book (see the bibliography I just added to the page), but that should be an authoritative reference if someone can look it up.

The rest of that sentence is certainly correct-- reading the list of the signers of the Constitution is like reading a street map of downtown Madison. -Rbean 05:09, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I live in Madison also but I have always heard that the city was named after James Madison, who died right around the time that the city was founded. Whenever I go through the Capitol I always hear the tour guide saying this. -Pm06420 17:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Mollenhoff, Chapter 1:

[James] Doty also draped his paper town in appealing political plumage. A revered president, James Madison, had died just five months before the Belmont session [which chose Madison as the capital]. Doty wisely capitalized upon the sentimental feelings throughout the country and selected "Madison" as the name for his paper town.

— Walloon 19:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great Wisconsin Credit Union

I have removed the paragraph about this Credit Union from the businesses because of an email to the Help Desk mailing list from the Public Relations & Education Liaison of Great Wisconsin Credit Union, saying they are not the largest Credit Union in the state and they do not have branches throughout the state. User:Zoe|^(talk) 00:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag

I'm a Madison native, and I never knew that the city has a flag! Can someone offer a source for this fact? I've certainly never seen it on any city website or publication, or flying anywhere in town. Thanks. 16:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The Official City Flag Resolution, from 1962. The Madison city flag has flown in front of the Madison Municipal Building for several decades now. One block away it flies in the forecourt of the Monona Terrace Convention Center. It also stands in the Common Council chamber of the City-County Building. — Walloon 18:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

you have never seen our flag? My grade school (Queen of Peace) has it in front of their building. I have also seen it all over the city, hm.....maybe I just notice these things better than most people. I don't know. — 66.188.98.56 22:13, 16 April 2006

I am an eighth grader at Queen of Peace and we do not have the city flag out in front. We do have the Wisconsin flag and the US flag. I know that was pointless but it might prove less and less buisnesses (and other buildings) are showing the Madison flag. TVRJomar 17:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, TVRJomar! I don't think that's really the concern, though. Many cities have seals, mottos, and so on that nobody remembers two weeks after the council approves them. ;-) Chicago is the only city I know of where you see the city flag everywhere, otherwise it's usually only at City Hall or other buildings. --Dhartung | Talk 19:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need sources for demographics

This article has a lot of unsubstantiated claims, which is bad. For example, no sources are given for these figures:

The metropolitan area of Madison as of 2003 had 526,742 inhabitants, making it the second-most populous in the state, after Milwaukee. Dane County is also one of the fastest growing counties in Wisconsin, adding around 60,000 people per decade.

So I've moved them out of the intro (which should be short and to the point) and into Demographics. Ideally we would get a source for the 526,742 and then maybe put the figure back into the intro. Joshua Davis 17:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music section

This is attracting external links to advertising-supported sites, so it's possibly an attractive nuisance. It desperately needs an overall cleanup but I'm only tangentially aware of the Madison music situation. Can someone improve it so that we have proper sources and are telling people about notable aspects of Madison culture rather than vague, pointless statements like "has an active metal scene"? (Whatever that is?) Also, a second opinion on the madisonhotspots.com website (plus: original content, minus: basically linkspam). If it isn't well-known in Madison I say it doesn't belong. --Dhartung | Talk 00:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and cleaned out the non-notable music stuff. --Dhartung | Talk 08:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Economy, Business, And Quality Of Life

Hi. I'm a new user of Wikipedia and find it cvery informative and this is about the next best thing since sliced bread. Now to the point. I understand Madison plenty and can be an advocate ont he topic of business in Madison. After reading several lines within the Economy and Business sections, it seems to become redundant and could be streamlined even expanded beyond what it already includes. Madison's widely known for a better than average quality of life and I believe the awars and press the city has received by the media and the like could be included in its own section. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Diamonte (talk • contribs) .

Diamonte, we like Wikipedia too! Welcome, but be aware that being "an advocate" is a problem here because Wikipedia has a strict policy of neutral point-of-view. Madison does receive high ratings but this is not the place to document all of them. --Dhartung | Talk 18:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drastic reorganization

I had to put this back because it made too many changes from the standard Wikipedia city article. Paragraphs were combined, which isn't good for online text, especially with lots of numbers. Headings were incorrectly capitalized, and parts of sections were needlessly made top-level sections. The "Quality Of Life" section is better named "Culture" to be consistent with other city articles, and to avoid point-of-view bias. The long list of kudos from various publications goes far beyond what is encyclopedic. Besides, this is an encyclopedia, and shouldn't sound like a civic booster brochure from the Chamber of Commerce. Generally, it isn't good editorial practice to make such drastic changes to an article without at least bringing it up for discussion first. --Dhartung | Talk 18:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Business Section (Specifically "Pizza")

It's stated here that "Rocky [Rococo]'s was started by two students in 1974". I've been in Madison for 15 yrs. and the story I've always heard was that it was Falbo Bros. Pizza that was started by two UW students, using their student loans as seed money. I've never heard this story connected to Rocky's. Can anyone provide a source that confirms this was Rocky's? In the mean time, I'm going to add a "citation needed" to this. -- JakeApple 00:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

According to an article only available on Google cache, Wayne Mosley and Roger Brown were recent graduates of UW when they opened their first store. This is probably not a notable business narrative unless they were, say, full-time students at the time, so the line should go. --Dhartung | Talk 02:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Party school"

I moved the bulk of this to the UW article, as it talks about it mostly in conjunction with the university. NickBurns 00:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no, it doesn't. I see your motivation, but most of the problem takes place off campus and fewer than 5% of the arrests are UW students. There's a connection -- the Halloween event is part of why UW has that "party" reputation -- but if I'd have to choose whose problem it is, I'd say it's Madison's problem, not the university's.--Dhartung | Talk 16:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't dispute that it belongs in both articles, Dhartung, and that it is a city problem. I just moved THAT particular batch of text, because as it was written, it seemed to refer more to the university. NickBurns 17:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Madison's hospitals are known nationally for their expertise."

I wonder. This just sounds like run-of-the-mill local boosterism to me. St. Mary's has a national reputation? Sure, St. Mary's and the University of Wisconsin Hospital are very good regional teaching hospitals, and you'd expect the hospital associated with the state's biggest medical school to be good. But, known nationally? I'm going to try a test. I don't know how it will turn out. I'm going to do an online search of The New York Times and see whether St. Mary's Hospital and Medical Center has ever been mentioned. I expect it not to be. Then I'm going to see whether it's ever mentioned the University of Wisconsin Hospital. I expect nothing more than brief mentions in passing. Here goes. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Searching on "articles" for "St. Mary's Hospital" and "Wisconsin": Well, actually there are sixteen hits, but I don't think any of them are relevant to St. Mary's having a national reputation. They are almost all obituaries of people who died at St. Mary's: "George E. Foster, Former Prominent Wisconsin Lumberman, dies at 72" at St. Mary's); John Powless, UW basketball coach, "resting comfortably at St. Mary's following his collapse during a practice session," etc. The exceptions are: Nov. 26, 1960 about the FBI finding a hospital chaplain who kidnapped a 17-year-old girl from St. Mary's; an August 2, 1983 article which happens to mention Saint Mary of Nazareth hospital in Chicago and also mentions Wisconsin elsewhere; and an August 19, 1900 article about 1981 awards given to American exhibitors at the Paris Exposition, which happens to mention St. Mary's hospital for Children in New York and also mentions Wisconsin. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The 18 hits for "University of Wisconsin Hospital" are pretty similar. There is one that mentions a medical accomplishment: Aug 22, 1990, "Surgery Gives Man Two Hearts" ... "Surgeons placed a human donor heart in William Rammer, 53 years old, of Kaukauna to supplement his diseased heart, said Dr. Barry Fields. Mr Rammer told reporters he could 'feel a twin heartbeat, and you can feel them overlap once in a while.'" The University of Wisconsin also made the New York Times on Jun 28, 1985, "Surgery on Wrong Foot," about an athlete in the hospital for surgery to remove bone chips from his left foot "noticed bandages on his right foot" when he regained consciousness. (This is probably not what is meant by "being known nationally for its expertise.")

A March 16, 1975 article about national reaction of the medical establishment to the conviction of Kenneth C. Edelin mentions a Minnesota clinician saying that formerly they had sent women in their 20th to 24th weeks of pregnancy to the UW hospital for abortions because it was "the only hospital in the Midwest that would accept such referrals," but following the Edelin conviction the hospital would no longer accept women for abortions after their 20th week.

I don't think any of this amounts to a true national reputation. The comment by the doctor in Minnesota suggests that the UW hospital has a real regional reputation. St. Mary's seems to be just an important local teaching hospital. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you just change it? Has someone reverted your prior edit or something?--Hraefen ^Talk 16:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I intend to, but I thought some discussion might be warranted. I've already marked it "citation needed." I don't think there's any rush. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Another data point: U. S. News' "honor roll" of hospitals "ranking at or near the top in at least six specialties" includes fourteen hospitals, none in Wisconsin:

Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore
Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.
Cleveland Clinic
Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston
UCLA Medical Center, Los Angeles
New York-Presbyterian Univ. Hosp. of Columbia and Cornell
Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC
Barnes-Jewish Hospital/Washington University, St. Louis
University of California, San Francisco Medical Center
University of Washington Medical Center, Seattle
Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston
University of Michigan Hospitals and Health System, Ann Arbor
Stanford Hospital and Clinics, Stanford, CA
University of Pittsburgh Medical Center

The University of Wisconsin Hospital mentions that it is in the U. S. News "top 50" for cancer, which it is, ranked #28. Since it doesn't mention being in the top 50 in other specialities, it probably isn't... I spot-checked a couple, but not all.

There are quite a few hospitals named variations of "St. Mary's Hospital." There is a "St. Mary's Hospital and Medical Center" that U. S. News ranked #48 in Urology, but despite having the identical name as the Madison hospital, it is an unrelated institution in Grand Junction, Colorado, St. Mary's Hospital and Medical Center. St. Mary's in Madison self-describes as "Serving South Central Wisconsin since 1912, St. Mary's Hospital offers a wide variety of health and wellness services." (Re the two being unconnected: The Madison hospital is associated with the Franciscan Sisters of Mary, best known for sponsoring St. Joseph's in Missouri; both are part of the SSM Health System. The Grand Junction hospital is associated with Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth and is part of the SCLHS Health System). Dpbsmith (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I agree you're overthinking this. Check, find a cite, change, or revert. ;-) Anyway, the US News rankings for UW do put it in the top 50 in four disciplines. But no WI hospital even made 4th best in this culling of Midwest hospitals out of that listing. Child magazine did rate Children's Hospital third best in the US, though that isn't germane to this article. --Dhartung | Talk 20:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, here it was listed unranked as one of the top teaching hospitals. --Dhartung | Talk 20:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Howzabout wording like this:

The University of Wisconsin Hospital is an important regional teaching hospital with notable strengths in nephrology, oncology, digestive disorders, and endocrinology [5]

and leave out St. Mary's? Dpbsmith (talk) 23:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this stuff belongs in the hospital article (which doesn't exist, I know). But I'd add "teaching hospital and regional trauma center" as it's basically the hub for local hospitals in all surrounding counties. --Dhartung | Talk 04:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It now reads:

The University of Wisconsin Hospital is an important regional teaching hospital and regional trauma center, with notable strengths in nephrology, oncology, digestive disorders, and endocrinology.^[1]. Other Madison hospitals include St. Mary's Hospital and Medical Center, Meriter Hospital and the Veteran's Hospital.

Dpbsmith (talk) 09:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

^ Best Hospitals 2006: University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics, Madison. U. S. News and World Reports (2006). Retrieved on September 12, 2006.

[edit] Citations for Famous Madisonians

I've tagged entries as needing citations, but I don't see any rush in supplying them. As long as their tagged, the reader is alerted.

In cases where the Wikipedia article for a name mentions a Madison connection and gives a citation, that citation should be copied into this article. The linked article in itself does not qualify as a citation, since Wikipedia is (officially!) not considered a reliable source.

For the record, "citation needed" means "citation needed," not "doubtful." Doubtful entries should be removed (and perhaps discussed here in Talk), not tagged. Probably 95% or more of these entries will turn out to be valid.

It should be a goal to cite them all, and eventually entries without citations should be removed. I've supplied references for three of these and will continue to nibble on this as time permits, but of course under the verifiability policy the burden of this work lies with those who add entries and those who want them to remain. They should have been cited when added. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

You know, I think this is nuts. It's citation clutter. We're not citing controversial claims, are we? I'm personally satisfied with handling these questions within the biographical articles themselves and resolving any doubt there. Conversely, I think there are much more valuable things to spend our time on as editors than treating where somebody lived as a potentially challengeable fact. Unless we're talking about a 9th century religious figure exclusively claimed by five different Balkan cultures, or something. --Dhartung | Talk 23:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Summary_style#Citations_and_external_links, for instance. This is also being discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Citing sources#New proposal.--Dhartung | Talk 23:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read the verifiability policy. It does not say that only "controversial" claims need citations. (And this is nothing new, it's been true for a very long time). They can't be "handled within the biographical articles" because Wikipedia articles are not acceptable as sources for other Wikipedia articles. In those cases where the biographical article does cite a source for the person's association with Madison, it shouldn't take very long to copy that source into this article. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

In any case, the discussion you mention concerns "common knowledge" items. It is certainly not "common knowledge" that Benjamin Heckendorn has a connection with Madison. One of the proposals is to omit citations for facts if they are in several of the textbooks listed as general sources. Well, I doubt that anyone has checked to see whether Benjamin Heckendorn is mentioned inMadison: a Model City, by John Nolen. I've read Rads and I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention Heckendorn... just a second... nope, the index skips from "Hearn, Ralph" to "Heiliger, Donald." So, the discussion about "common knowledge" doesn't apply here. In any case, the "common knowledge" issue has come up many times before and hasn't gone much of anywhere. And a good thing, too, as I've seen several cases, e.g. about the recipe for a proper Philadelphia cheesesteak, where people claiming to be knowledgeable Philadelphians have flatly contradicted each other on what is said to be a matter of common knowledge among Philadelphians. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I too agree that tagging each individual person is ridiculous. It sets a very bad precident. Imagine if all pages read like this (edited from History of Brazil):

From the 16th to the 18th centuries, Brazil was a colony of Portugal^{[citation needed]}, exploited mainly for brazilwood at first^{[citation needed]}, and later for sugarcane^{[citation needed]} and, in the 18th century, for gold.^{[citation needed]} During this period many natives were exterminated^{[citation needed]}, pushed out of the way or assimilated^{[citation needed]}, and large numbers of African slaves were brought in.^{[citation needed]} On 7 September 1822, the country declared its independence from Portugal^{[citation needed]} and became a constitutional monarchy, the Empire of Brazil through a small-scale Brazilian War of Independence, lasting from 1821-1825.^{[citation needed]} A military coup in 1889 established a republican government.^{[citation needed]} The country has been nominally a democratic republic ever since^{[citation needed]}, except for three periods of overt dictatorship (1930–1934, 1937–1945, and 1964–1985).^{[citation needed]}

That's terrible! This is why the bright administrators of wikipedia have provided us with the following box:

This section does not cite its references or sources.
Please help improve this article by introducing appropriate citations. (help, get involved!)
Any unsourced material that has been or is likely to be challenged may be removed at any time. This article has been tagged since December 2006.

I highly encourage everyone to read this. Furthermore, if you're trying to "preempt" vandals, read this. Moreover, is it really of such huge consequence if Chris Noth was not actually born in Madison? I agree we should strive to be as accurate and factual as possible, but the fact that only this little trivia section has been tagged indicates that there is little concern by the OP for actually improving the article, and they are more concerned with making a point. We could all be spending our time doing better things, either in the wiki world or the real world. If you really think your right and we're wrong OP, please bring this to the attention of an administrator.

Other users, Please share your thoughts on this matter so we may put it to rest!! Bcirker 17:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Please see the verifiability policy. If you don't like the tags, just find citations and replace the tags with citations. I've dug up about half a dozen, it's not hard. Or, we can move the unsourced entries to this Talk page and move them back one at a time as citations are found.

I don't like being accused of WP:POINT when I've been adding citations for these myself.

As to: "Moreover, is it really of such huge consequence if Chris Noth was not actually born in Madison?" No, but it's not inconsequential, either. If he isn't, his name should be removed from the page. If there's no reference, then per WP:V his shouldn't have been added to the page in the first place. Now that it has been, the choices are a) to remove it, or b) to indicate it as needing a citation. I chose the latter. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, it takes less time to add the citation than to argue about it. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's clear I agree that a bunch of [citation needed] tags is visually unappealing. I tend to think one [unreferenced] box is really sufficient for this sort of case. I'm not goign to argue with it since you're doing the chut work. But in general I try to be more parismonious in passing out such things, for the more egregious or contentious problems, to call better attention to them. One could easily add 100 more [citation needed] tags throughout this entire article. (Now, if MediaWiki had better, more invisible citation options (javascript hover, say) or a "static version" that doesn't show such tags, I might be more amenable to having such things in a "working version".) Basically, it's the difference between treating a tag as a carrot, or as a stick. --Dhartung | Talk 20:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

You have a point. OK.

I certainly agree with you about MediaWIki, by the way. My personal opinion is that Wikipedia needs to have a higher density of citations than traditional encyclopedias or journal articles, and needs to have some innovative apparatus to support that without visual clutter. On the other hand, in the past it was so difficult and laborious to cite anything that I personally rejoiced when the php <ref></ref><references/>. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's try just leaving the unreferenced section tag and see what happens. (I'm also leaving individual tags in the paragraphs where it's not so obvious at a glance what is and isn't cited). Let me say, however, that I do not plan to do all the work of finding sources; as the verifiability policy says, the burden is on the editors that wish the material to be kept. And I do hope that new entries will be sourced... and that people will not use the existence of unsourced entries as justification for adding more. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks User:Dpbsmith for doing that. I really didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you and I know you're a hard working wikipedian who is really has the best interest of wikipedia in mind. I will add a few citations myself so I can say I was at least part of the solution. Bcirker 01:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Dpbsmith (talk) 23:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beth Heiden?

Although our article on Beth Heiden states that "She was born in Madison, Wisconsin," no source is cited.

The article on Beth Heiden in Great Women in Sports. Visible Ink Press, 1996, Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Thomson Gale. 2006 says "Beth Heiden was born and raised in West Allis, Wisconsin." Dpbsmith (talk) 02:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC).

Celebrity Locator 2006-7 lists her as currently living in Dollar Bay, Michigan, and Eric Heiden in Birmingham, Alabama.

The Ultimate Celebrity Address & Phone Book has two listings for "Eric and Beth Heiden," one at "XXXXXXXXXXXXXX Madison, WI 53705," and one in Sacramento, California.

What exactly was the Heidens' connection with Madison and during what years? Dpbsmith (talk) 02:34, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Eric and Beth Heiden: A Bond of Blood on Skates, Gay Talese, New York Times Feb. 10, 1980, pg. WO3 says Eric was "an obscure 18-year-old premedical student at the University of Wisconsin" when he attracted notice with his skating in Europe, and says that "when touring members of a Soviet wrestling team visited Wisconsin, they identified the city of Madison not as the capital of the state but as the birthplace of Eric Heiden."

It appears, however, that Beth attended UVM, not the University of Wisconsin. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:44, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Anywho lists: Heiden, Jack D & Nancy T (Eric and Beth's parents) XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Madison, WI 53705

Most likely Beth was born in Madison and "Great Women in Sports" is just plain wrong... but I still haven't found a good source. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not definitive, but her Wisconsin Historical Society entry says Madison. The same site's entry on Eric says "As a child Eric skated with the Madison Speed Skating Club team but did not begin training seriously until 1972, when Dianne Holum, an Olympic gold medalist and University of Wisconsin student, took him under her wing." --Dhartung | Talk 10:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. No time right now. I'll add that reference, and also add the Great Women in Sports reference with the note that it's probably erroneous. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Jack Heiden's UWH page indicates he lived in Madison and Denver around the time of both kids' birth -- but I've never seen them called Denverites. I think the book just mixed her up with Chris Witty, or something to do with the Pettit Center, which is practically across the street from West Allis. P.S. I redacted the address for privacy reasons.--Dhartung | Talk 11:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Art Paul Schlosser

People listed as Famous Madisonians should be people who folks who don't know much, if anything, about Madison may have heard of. I am unconvinced that Art Paul Schlosser is one of these people. Unless I hear any convincing evidence to the contrary, I'm going to take him off the list of Famous Madisonians. He may fit in better in the section about local music, if someone feels strongly that he should be in the article.

[edit] Madison skyline pictures

It may be my own personal opinion. But I think the skyline pictures of Madison should be taken at a closer distance so a large proportion of the pictures are buildings not waters instead. Wscsn 20:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. Take a few and upload them. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

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