User talk:Macduff
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[edit] Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam naming
Hi - please see my latest comment on Talk:Cat Stevens regarding respecting consensus. This is a complicated situation, but it has been debated a great deal and consensus - a rare commodity around here - was reached, before my time editing the page, by the way. I really think we should respect it, since it is not getting us anywhere to revert back and forth. Please consider what I've said there on the specifics - this latest and my earlier comments. Regards. Tvoz 11:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- I've responded over there - BTW, what is this RHOA that people keep mentioning? Macduff 14:48, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I think it's "ROHA" and I have absolutely no idea what it means either! I'm off to dinner so don't have time to read and respond to you over there right now, but I do want to say that I appreciate the dialogue, and certainly acknowledge that the circumstances may have changed enough to consider a change. It's just so rare that consensus is actually reached that I try to preserve it if it makes sense to me. Back later or tomorrow Tvoz 00:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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- The discussion has continued, and new compromise wording based on your good suggestion has been proposed on the talk page - it would be helpful to hear what you think about it over there, as there is an editor who seems uninterested in consensus or compromise which I'm attempting to reach. The new suggested wording is:
- Cat Stevens is the former stage name of Steven Demetre Georgiou, who is today known as Yusuf Islam. Born on July 21, 1948, he is an English musician, singer-songwriter, educator and philanthropist.
- I'd appreciate your input over there. Thanks.Tvoz | talk 00:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- The discussion has continued, and new compromise wording based on your good suggestion has been proposed on the talk page - it would be helpful to hear what you think about it over there, as there is an editor who seems uninterested in consensus or compromise which I'm attempting to reach. The new suggested wording is:
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- It is of course your right to change your mind about any compromise we were discussing, and I knew when I invited you over to see what was happening what your original position was, but it is disappointing that you have ignored the provocative, and inaccurate, bullying that went on and caved into it rather than objecting to his rude behavior and continuing the dialogue that we were engaged in prior to the New Year's holiday. I've shown myself willing to compromise, as have you, but this editor has not, and he has distorted the truth. The vast majority of my edits had nothing whatsoever to do with the first few words of the article, contrary to what that editor claimed, and I have been a voice of neutrality and balance in this article. My work speaks for itself, it is all there. And as I said, I am waiting to hear from other editors before proceeding. This may not be a democracy, but one hopes it is also not a place where lying and incivility wins. There are other channels that can be appealed to. The consensus reached in the archive, as you yourself attested, had to do with the notability issue and why this article is named Cat Stevens. You recently said you were not looking to revert that consensus, and I am glad to hear that, but that is the path that this individual is going down, because he is apparently not interested in other people's opinions or consensus, and it is clear has a POV that he is pushing in this. You also made the point, which I acknowledged more than once, that this is a changing situation and perhaps at some point his notability under the name Yusuf Islam will change the mix. That is a reasonable position. But what happened on this page in the last few days is unacceptable, and -as I said - disappointing. But we'll see what happens next. I would point out one more thing - this article was deemed "good article" status by outside review as it was named and rendered. So there are other people to be consulted. Anyway, I just wanted to say this to you directly. Tvoz | talk 22:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Tvoz, I have been ignoring the personal flames between you and the other editor and all discussion of other issues as they are completely irrelevent. Your statement that I "caved in" is off-base and incorrect, nor is it your place to make those calls. I have not changed my position. I do support the compromise that you and I agreed on, but my original proposal (which I support even more) was the one that the other editor in question used. I have not made any changes to the article, other than putting up the compromise solution. I presume that we are looking to all reach an agreement, which is why I chose to voice my support for the change on the discussion page. I hope that other editors will also voice either their support or their dislike of it, so that we can get some additional input. You are muddying the issue and your response is causing me to doubt your objectivity. -- Macduff 23:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- It is of course your right to change your mind about any compromise we were discussing, and I knew when I invited you over to see what was happening what your original position was, but it is disappointing that you have ignored the provocative, and inaccurate, bullying that went on and caved into it rather than objecting to his rude behavior and continuing the dialogue that we were engaged in prior to the New Year's holiday. I've shown myself willing to compromise, as have you, but this editor has not, and he has distorted the truth. The vast majority of my edits had nothing whatsoever to do with the first few words of the article, contrary to what that editor claimed, and I have been a voice of neutrality and balance in this article. My work speaks for itself, it is all there. And as I said, I am waiting to hear from other editors before proceeding. This may not be a democracy, but one hopes it is also not a place where lying and incivility wins. There are other channels that can be appealed to. The consensus reached in the archive, as you yourself attested, had to do with the notability issue and why this article is named Cat Stevens. You recently said you were not looking to revert that consensus, and I am glad to hear that, but that is the path that this individual is going down, because he is apparently not interested in other people's opinions or consensus, and it is clear has a POV that he is pushing in this. You also made the point, which I acknowledged more than once, that this is a changing situation and perhaps at some point his notability under the name Yusuf Islam will change the mix. That is a reasonable position. But what happened on this page in the last few days is unacceptable, and -as I said - disappointing. But we'll see what happens next. I would point out one more thing - this article was deemed "good article" status by outside review as it was named and rendered. So there are other people to be consulted. Anyway, I just wanted to say this to you directly. Tvoz | talk 22:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Ok, "caved in" was unfair, and I apologize for that. If my objectivity is in question it may be because of the inaccurate accusations that he made about my previous work on the page that I am proud of, and in particular proud of the efforts I made to bring the page into NPOV. As for changing the text now, that was my point all along - you and I (and hopefully some others would join) were in discussion about the opening, and we were moving toward an agreement before the holidays, and this fellow came in and ignored that and made changes. When called on that, he continued and made it clear that he ndidn't care about consensus. I tried to move the dialogue forward by abandoning my original wording and trying to work with what we had. And I think we still may be able to reach a compromise that is fair and honest - but his reversion to what he wants is not helpful at all and not in keeping with what you just said. ANyway, I don't want to belabor it, and I am sorry for the "caved in", but this should not be the way this is resolved. Tvoz | talk 23:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- One more thing - when you posted the compromise wording today it didn't stand for more than an hour and half before he reverted it again to his wording, despite the discussion on the talk page that we were having, so I'm not clear on how that illustrates his looking to reach an agreement. Tvoz | talk 23:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Tvoz, if you have issues with the other editor, they are between you and him. I am not going to support you in a war. -- Macduff 23:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Link Removal
Please stop removing the link I've posted in the Lord of the Rings article. It is a perfectly valid external link, and one that adds valuable content to the subject. If you persist I'll seek the assistance of an Administrator. Go find something else to do.
- Please read my post here, and thank you for talking about this. -- Macduff 22:02, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Survey concerning Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam lead sentence.
Talk:Cat_Stevens#Survey: Ordering_of_names_within_lead_sentence
As an active editor at Cat Stevens, your input is requested for the purpose of establishing consensus. Italiavivi 00:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
