Talk:Machinima

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Contents

[edit] Structure

How should the article be structured? Currently it's a mess with random examples of machinima through into the article in roughly chronological order. Any suggestions on how to break this into sections? Or may be someone can be cool enough to just do it? :)

=====> Since the evolution of machinima was a relatively linear process (mostly starting with Stunt Island), and it basically is still in its infancy, tracing its development chronologically is probably best. Perhaps breaking it up by year may be effective, but establishing the major milestones chronologically really does help outline the progression.

Paranoid 22:14, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Microsoft doesnt offically support Red Vs Blue. Does it?

Yes Microsoft had a deal with Red vs Blue to support Halo and the Xbox. -- Psi edit

I tried to help. "Notable examples" fits well with notable production companies, and examples are usually found at the end of the article. The other sections still need work. MaxVeers 20:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halo Machinima

I was thinking Halo Machinima should get its own article since if you look around the internet you can find lots of it. -- Psi edit

[edit] Machinima Infobox

I just created Template:Infobox machinima, adapted from the television infobox. Use it in articles for machinima productions. I've adapted Red vs Blue and The Strangerhood thus far.--DooMDrat 05:57, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External links...

Can people review external links added? This is not a link depository. Just because someone made some 'OMG MATRICKS!!!1!" film in some MMORPG doesn't mean it belongs.--DooMDrat 08:59, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

  • MachinimaHQ, a Machinima community/portal. It contains videos, articles, and forums. Probably my personal favourite machinima site. I'm not sure of how this submission process works, but I was notified to talk about "External Links" in this discussion area before they go up.
It only gets one google hit, and it's only been around since the 14th of February. Hell, the forums only have 7 members at the moment. I don't see how it could be your favourite site already unless you are personally involved in it. Wikipedia is not for self-promotion.--Drat (Talk) 10:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
  • The Codex, a Halo-based action/drama series. Added by a longterm vandal. Relevant? --Wetman 05:02, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
It's relevant. It's the correct URL for The Codex.--DooMDrat 06:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I reverted to remove a link to another individual series, Neverending Nights. In my opinion, the external links section should not be a directory for individual series. (Just for the record, I incorrectly labeled my revert as rvv in my edit summary). --Muchness 00:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Just some pointers

The section for Quake seems amazingly scant, only mentioning speed runs. But from memory, Quake was where machinima really took off, with Eschaton: Darkening Twilight generating a lot of buzz within the community. It was made by Strange Company, the guys behind www.machinima.com. Anyway, I think more should be made of them, I mean, they even had Roger Ebert comment on one of their projects. - Hahnchen 03:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Definitely. I also feel articles should be made for the biggest and best of the old Quake Movies. Namely Devil's Covenant and The Seal of Nehahra.-DooMDrat 11:59, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nominated for CVG Improvement drive

I don't want to collectively badmouth everyone here, but I nominated it for the CVG Improvement drive as you can see above. I'm not sure how dead or alive that collaboration is, but hopefully a few more people will see this article. Anyway, I think this article could be greatly improved, but I personally won't be doing too much because I'm writing up various articles on FPS games. Anyway, here's a few points.

  • Quake Machinima is almost ignored as I noted in further up this page.
  • There's a lot of advertising and vanity like comments and sections. For example, who are Chairleg Productions? And how many external links?! These should be trimmed down to only the most popular production studios and machinima collectives/communities.
  • I think on further expansion of certain sections, they could be moved out onto their own article. ie, Quake and Halo. Did Half-Life engine machinima take off at all? I remember seeing a few CS ones, like the militia one, which I thought was rubbish, but still.
  • A general section on the tools needed to make machinima, editors needed, skills needed. Not too in depth, being that wiki is not a FAQ, but I think it'd still be useful.
  • Some outside references to the machinima world? I know machinima may still be a very closed community, but what have other people said about machinima? Film critics for example?

Anyway, there's enough ideas there to improve the article, happy editing. - Hahnchen 14:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm writing here, as it's pretty much the same thing.
I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, but it appears that there's a surprising lack of information about Machinima as-it-was with Strange Company and their efforts through machinima.com (2000 - 2003?) -- a lot of stuff happened then:
  • Quake machinima, and such things [KeyGrip...]
  • Quake II/III machinima [and, later, modified versions of QI and QII]... at the time, they included Hardly Workin' (of course) and Rebel vs. Thug
  • Pre-UT2003 Unreal machinima (Team Frame, UnFramed Productions), of which I added a line
  • Half-Life is worth mentioning, as it was introduced as a viable engine at this time
  • Lithtech Film Producer [and Machinimation]
  • Things mentioned in the 'Artery' Machinima documentary [quite a bit]
  • The earliest Machinima Film Festivals
Much more to list, of course. Anyway, the article right now seems greatly emphasize Halo et al, which makes for a rather awkward view. Unfortunately, I'm not exactly the best person for the aforementioned time period, as I was mostly an observer back then. (I know of these things...) Anyone? 69.169.49.12 07:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More people putting in their pet projects

I removed the massive amount of external links from the article a while ago. I took a look in the Machinima category last night, to see a number of articles have been added for various productions, some of which haven't been released yet. It seems highly likely that they were added by the creators. I'll nominate the articles for deletion as I see fit.--Drat (Talk)

I've added List of machinima series to the See Also section of this article, with some trepidation, as it will likely encourage more people to list their stupid little non-notable and/or unreleased productions. That said, the visible link to the article will also allow us to be more vigilant in removing crap.--Drat (Talk) 09:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I've put together a rudimentary guideline for additions on Talk:List of machinima series.--Drat (Talk) 00:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I guess I'm one of the "pet project" pushers. But I object to the stripping of ALL external links from the entry. If there are no examples cited, how is anyone supposed to get an idea of the breadth of machinima productions? The List of machinima series page is a step in the right direction, but like the Machinima page's focus on specific game engines, is very limiting. Today I added a "Notable Examples by genre" section and inserted Abstract Machinima, which was previous entirely unrepresented on this page. I also stuck some external links in there, which is way better than nothing. Feel free to reorganize and repurpose, of course.--Reign of Toads 21:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The links I removed were mainly used for promotional purposes. This article is on the to do list for WikiProject Machinima. Also has been the consensus among project members that productions should only be added that have been shown to be notable by reliable sources independent to that production.--Drat (Talk) 22:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] City of Heroes Machinima

Added a short section & a few links on City of Heroes machinima & some examples thereof.

[edit] Images Needed

This article os too bland, it needs some images, maybe some screencaps from popular Machinima.

I added an image from the Red vs Blue article.--Drat (Talk) 04:34, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red vs Blue peer review

Several others and I have been working on getting Red vs Blue to featured article quality. Please check the page, and leave any feedback on how we may further improve it on Wikipedia:Peer review/Red vs Blue.--Drat (Talk) 08:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{User machinima}}

In case anyone likes userboxes, I've created {{user machinima}}, which automatically categorizes you under Category:Wikipedians interested in machinima. — TKD::Talk 09:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Demoscene

Is there a better source for the "many" comment other than a forum? Per Wikipedia's guidelines on reliable sources, bulletin boards and forums generally aren't considered reliable sources because there is no way to verify who actually wrote the information. — TKD::Talk 02:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is about factual information but opinions, and the pouet thread seems to reflect quite well what kinds of opinions exist about machinima in demoscene contexts. Anyway, I removed some of the less obvious statements and changed "many" to "some". Happy now? --Viznut 06:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I understand that it's a matter of opinion, but the argument is that forum posts are still not an indicator that an opinion truly has any weight. For now, what we have will do, I guess, but if a better source can be found for this, then it should take precedence. — TKD::Talk 22:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Machinima

(crossposted to Talk:Red vs Blue)

Just out of curiosity, would anyone be interested in helping to form a WikiProject Machinima? The purpose of the project would be to foster the improvement, expansion, and maintenance of machinima-related articles on Wikipedia. While getting Red vs Blue up to featured status is a great accomplishment, there's a lot more that could theoretically be done for other articles. If you take a look at Category:Machinima, you'll see that there's a fair amount of ground to cover, even for what most would consider a "niche" topic, and I think that, if we have enough interested people, it'd be beneficial to have a WikiProject to facilitate collaboration.

By the way, in case anyone's interested, I've written up some tentative thoughts based on my experiences working on the Red vs Blue articles: User:TKD/Writing about machinima.--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by TKD (talk • contribs) .

I'm in, of course.--Drat (Talk)
I'll help do what I can, though I generally stick to Rooster Teeth Productions for the most part. -- Viewdrix 02:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
That's perfectly fine. There's no shortage of editing to be done in that area, and Category:Rooster Teeth Productions currently comprises at least half of machinima-related articles. And copyediting generally doesn't require specialized knowledge. :) — TKD::Talk 02:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm interested, I'll have to read up on how we go about this. But I really like the idea. The Filmaker 02:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking into that more closely now that we have a handful of interested editors. — TKD::Talk 02:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Project page is now live at Wikipedia:WikiProject Machinima. I'm working on creating the standard talk page template. — TKD::Talk 05:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A better outline for this article

I'm starting to think about what we need to do to push this to GA/FA status. Reading this over, there's too much focus on modern examples of machinima and not enuough coverage on techniques. Ideally, the examples should be interspersed with more context within the bigger picture. Here's what I propose as an outline:

  1. History (possibly its own article)
    1. Precedent (demoscene, earlyspeedruns)
    2. Quake movie era
    3. Modern era (including increasing commercial use)
  2. Techniques (possibly its own article)
    1. Relation to traditional filmmaking and animation
    2. Character control (digital puppetry versus scripting versus dependence on AI)
    3. Filming techniques (notable exploitation of glitches, etc.)
    4. Post-production (editing [Keygrip, LMPC], etc.)
  3. Reception
    1. Academic
    2. Commercial (including licensing issues)

Thoughts? — TKD::Talk 08:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'd forgotten about the debates that arose regarding whether Quad God was machinima. Then there was Quake: The Movie/Escape from the Bastille to further complicate matters (using game assets in professional 3D renderers).--Drat (Talk) 09:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This page absolutely needs a cleanup, and your skeleton for the article looks more promising than its current state where every game engine has their own section arbitrarily listed. I'm not too sure about devoting a section to the Anachronox release, that really was a one off thing. Although a significant release grabbing up awards and recognition, it really should not get undue weight in the article compared to say the entire Quake Movie era. - Hahnchen 16:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I copuld've sworn that I hit "Save page" two weeks ago, but I guess not. Yeah, only the numbered items would definitely have their own sections; the unnumbered items ere more points to touch upon within that section. Sorry for the confusion. — TKD::Talk 01:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Garry's mod

Is gmod another thing used in HL2 machinima? Flashn00b 23:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Theoretically, yes, although I don't know offhand of any productions that use it. — TKD::Talk 00:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Software generates video news bulletins

Maybe this is of use for the article? —msikma <user_talk:msikma> 15:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, it'll be useful, but this entire article could use a nice reorganization first. — TKD::Talk 00:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GWfilms

Im suprised that GWfilms famous Militia machinima wasn't mentioned a single time in this article...

Militia2 generated lots of user attention towards the potential of machinima... as well as winning several awards too...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.169.92.20 (talk • contribs).

[edit] History

For what it's worth, a company called Slippery Slug advertised a program for the BBC Micro called Movie Maker in the May 1986 edition of Acorn User magazine. Possibly one of the earliest examples of Machinima software? Alf Boggis 20:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Also 3D Movie Maker from Microsoft (huge fanbase for 3DMM) and MediaStage from Immersive Education. Also Alice 3D, a free program which will allow far more control using Sims 2 characters.

[edit] MGO

WHy is it everytiem I make a space for teh Metal Gear Onlien Machinimas it is deleted? I think they should be added also. Especially a mentioning of FOX Chronicles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GamerSam (talk • contribs) 00:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Has FOX Chronicles been mentioned in any third-party reliable source? (Keep in mind that blogs, forums, and wikis are generally not reliable sources.) — TKD::Talk 02:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Warcraft III machinema

The game engine of Warcraft III has been used to produce many machinemas, but they were mostly in the game's custom map format rather than independantly watchable video files, so I don't know if awareness of these productions is wide enough outside the warcraft community to warrant it's mention in this article, so I'm writing this question here for further discussion. Blizzard entertainment, the creators of the game, did sponsor a Warcraft III cinematic contest a bit over a year ago, although that may not be a wide enough reckognition either, since the contest wasn't sponsored by a third party. 195.210.220.81 18:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Film Genre?

Two things:
1) The first paragraph has redundant information. It first states that "machinima...is both a collection of associated production techniques and a film genre defined by those techniques," and then ends the paragraph with, "as a film genre, the term refers to movies created by the techniques described above." The information is redundant and one of these should probably be excised.

2) Or maybe both. It seems pretty debatable that machinima should be counted as genre. There is nothing inherent in the production of machinima that can limit the kinds of stories it can tell. It doesn't seem to be any more an example of film genre than live action is a film genre. -- The Dane 01:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About WoW Machinima

Well, i was just wondering why, movies Such as Tales of the Past, and Tales of the past II havent been added to the notable section of this article, Seeing as Their Author recieved a spot on a Danish Television channel for the work he did on the movies. Also on WarcraftMovies.com over 186,000 people ahve downloaded this video. Kage4hm 08:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Please read the WikiProject Machinima guidelines. I'll re-iterate that the production needs to be the subject of multiple works by reliable sources, and that pointing to a download counter doesn't count.--Drat (Talk) 09:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Machinima discussed

I think that all the machinima articles should have a web site address so that people can view what the story is about and decide if they like it, so they don't only have to go for our word on it. Although, I do believe that only the people who write the articles should be allowed to post the addresses and only one address should be placed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terrortree (talk • contribs) 19:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Star Wars Battle Front II Machinima

I hope no one minds, but I added the Star Wars Battlefront II machinima "A Clone Apart" to the list of Machinima's. It is really funny and I believe it deserves a chance to be noticed. If anyone has any objections please post them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terrortree (talk • contribs) 19:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Wikipedia articles are required to be neutral. Whether you think it is funny does not matter. What matters is coverage in multiple, non-trivial works by reliable sources. See the WikiProject Machinima guidelines for more info. A Clone Apart has been repeatedly deleted 1 2.--Drat (Talk) 08:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Star Wars Battle Front II Machinima cont.

I now understand why I shouldn't put it down because of how funny it is (sorry if I insulted anyone but Im new) but I don't understand why we can't put "a clone apart" down, what's wrong with it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terrortree (talk • contribs) 19:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

There isn't any need to start a new topic. Please read again what I wrote before, specifically about references. You need to show why the production is notable (important), and be able to cite reliable sources, that are wholly independent of the crew behind the production.--Drat (Talk) 22:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I understand now, so if became more popular and had more than... 3 episodes then it could be a viable option?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.93.111.229 (talk • contribs).

Only if more than one reliable source has written about it non-trivially. Are you actually reading the guidelines?.--Drat (Talk) 04:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.93.111.229 (talk • contribs).

Well, there's now no need to put it up, it got canceled - Terrortree

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