Talk:Macedonian language naming dispute

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Contents 1 Neutrality 2 Merge 3 Pending citation 4 Standard of proof 5 Major additions, redirect from Slavomacedonian 6 Dopia

[edit] Neutrality

I kind of guess this is POV by default. - Francis Tyers · 23:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

POV? What is POV about it?! Are you some kind of Greek agent! - Francis Tyers · 23:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I object to the merge. There is a lot of information about the various terms of reference given. If you feel that the article title is POV then by all means suggest a better one. I myself suggested Macedonian language (terminology) for a possible alternative. Having an entire article about the name of a language is hardly "sweeping it under the carpet" as you accuse in your edit summary, but rather "airing the dispute" (get it, carpets, airing, etc.?) for all to see and enjoy. - Francis Tyers · 00:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pending citation

"It must be noted though, that the Greeks do not reject the term Macedonian applied to the geographic region, nor oppose the usage of the name by other nations (e.g. Macedonia, Alabama, Macedonia, Georgia, Macedônia), but rather object the usage of the term when linked with historical and cultural backgrounds, by people other than Greeks."

- Francis Tyers · 00:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it is pretty obvious... There has not been any diplomatic complain to the governments of Brazil and USA for the usage of the name 'Macedonia' in some of their places. but there have been complains to FYROM for the usage of cultural macedonian symbols, such as the Vergina Sun. Francis, do be reasonable pls... U made the paragraph provocative!: the Greeks that they have a "...kind of «copyright» on the name Macedonian"?! let the other opinion stay as well... Hectorian 00:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

That is how it is presented in the original French. You are welcome to furnish a better translation, here is the original excerpt:

"En Grèce, on désigne le macédonien comme «l'idiome de Skopje», considéré comme un dialecte bulgare déformé et appauvri. La Grèce, qui revendique une sorte de «copyright» sur le nom de macédonien, proteste contre l'utilisation d'un ethnonyme et d'un glossonyme qui «a été, est, et sera toujours grec». Les Macédoniens de la République de Macédoine sont donc appelés en Grèce les «Skopiens». Quant aux macédophones du Nord de la Grèce, le gouvernement grec nie leur existence, affirmant qu'il n'existe qu'un petit groupe de «Grecs slavophones», ou de «bilingues», qui parlent grec et un dialecte slave local, mais qui ont «une conscience nationale grecque» (Kofos, 1964, p. 226)."

- Francis Tyers · 01:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, your examples were about "Macedonia", not "Macedonian". - Francis Tyers · 01:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know French, so i can understand almost... nothing:). your examples were about "Macedonia", not "Macedonian": are we playing with the words here? the same aplies to both "Macedonia" and "Macedonian". anyway, shape the article as u wish. i may have a look at it later. (btw, it can be merged in the terminology article). Regards Hectorian 01:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Full translation here:

In Greece, they designate Macedonian as <<the idiom of Skopje>>, it is considered as a dialect of bulgarian, deformed and impoverished. Greece, which asserts a kind of <<copyright>> on the name of Macedonian protests against the utilisation of an ethnonym and a glossonym which <<has been, is and always will be Greek>>. The Macedonians of the Republic of Macedonia are called in Greece, <<Skopians>>. As for the Macedonophones of the north of Greece, the Greek government denies their existence, affirming that there is a small group of <<Greek slavophones>>, or <<bilinguals>>, who speak Greek and a local slavic dialect, but which have a <<Greek national conscience>> (Kofos, 1964, p. 226).

It might be worth merging with the terminology article, but it covers different subject area, and that article is already very long. - Francis Tyers · 01:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Standard of proof

I've adopted the same standard of proof for usage as the featured Macedonia (terminology) article. That it is enough for the to appear in an official publication to be the name used by the organisation. I think this is reasonable. If anyone disagrees we should have a combined discussion on Talk:Macedonia (terminology). - Francis Tyers · 01:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major additions, redirect from Slavomacedonian

I think this article should be expanded to include the whole naming dispute issue, found here and there in several articles. Most arguments are repeated and repeated in all sorts of places. What do you think? NikoSilver 20:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I propose we move this to Macedonian naming dispute and include all relevant info once. Then we can have a neutral summary in Macedonia (terminology) and in Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia#Greece. NikoSilver 20:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I think the language brings up different issues than the others. But I think an article on Macedonia naming dispute would be useful. - Francis Tyers · 22:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it could be cut out from Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia. - Francis Tyers · 22:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. I think that it is better to have two or more pages. One covering each of the language, the ethnic group and the state. We can use "Macedonia naming dispute" as the main article, and have summary style sections. - Francis Tyers · 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dopia

Does ντόπια belong here? At least it should be mentioned.  Andreas  ^(T) 14:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so as arguably that isn't to do with the naming dispute, but rather a linguistic dispute. As such it is mentioned appropriately in Macedonian language. - Francis Tyers · 14:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)