Talk:Macedonian culture (Slavic)

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I wonder how the user who wrote that Cyrillic(Glagolithic) alphabet is a product of Macedonian culture doesn't feel ... at least uncomfortable. I would have removed this part but I do not feel the need the guys from Macedonia feel to prove that the culture of the whole Balkans is their culture. NaibStilgar

The article is definitely NOT about culture of that republic. Therefore it should not be labeled as such. 217.140.193.123 13:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Distinctions 1.1 Discision 2 Moving the page 3 Distinction 4 Irrelevant link 5 Hm

[edit] Distinctions

Anyone feeling uncomfortable with the contents of this article re eras (or ethnicities), are, imo, entitled to write portions that distinguish what has been ancient Macedonian culture and/or adjacent Greek Macedonian culture, what has been Slavonic Macedonian culture, etc. I recommend to keep it distinguished by era after era, and not going to fight what is which ethnic group's contribution. (Though I know that almost everyrthing can be battled here on basis of ethnicity). Arrigo 16:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but this article refers to the culture of the country FYROM only. I trust you do not disagree with this. Therefore the article's proper title should be "Culture of (the) Republic of Macedonia". Until such time as someone writes either a comprehensive article spanning the entire geographical region of Macedonia culturewise, and/or "portions that distinguish what has been ancient Macedonian culture and/or adjacent Greek Macedonian culture, what has been Slavonic Macedonian culture, etc" or "distinguished by era after era" (all of which are reasonable proposals), the article called "Culture of Macedonia" should be left blank.

I, for one, do not claim any bit of this article as a contribution of this or another ethnic group. Indeed I do not wish to alter the content of this article in any way. I merely want it attributed to the country it refers to, and its cultural heritage; not to the whole geographical region, of which this country is but a part. Chronographos 17:14, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

This article is definitely not about any geographical regions, it's only about FYROM and medieval Bulgaria. The title needs to be moved back to 'culture of republic of Macedonia' and all the references to 'Macedonians' need to be replaced by Macedonian Slavs. Also the article mainly talks about the culture of medieval Bulgaria or whatever Slavic population inhabited the region which did not recognise themselves as Macedonian (despite what current FYROM nationalists want to believe). Miskin 11:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh yeah, one more detail. Despite what you people are told in school, there's no historical reference of a Slavic ethnic group calling itself "Macedonian" prior to the 20th century (and I challenge anyone to prove me the opposite). Also, prior to the Balkan Wars, the region of Macedonia was very different from the one described in the introduction of the article. For those reasons I think that the title "culture of RoM" is still misleading, as 80% of the article refers to medieval Slavic culture, in a region which at the time was not considered by anybody as "Macedonia" and its Slavic inhabitants recognised themselves as Bulgarian or Serbian. This circus of an article will be cleaned up for being so disgustingly POV and unscientific, so unless any of its editors have any counter arguments to what I've said, I don't see a reason to wait any longer. The question that remains is whether move back to "culture of RoM" and remove all references to Macedonian Slavs prior to the Balkan Wars or just edit the currect article and add neutral information. In my opinion it's retarded to have an article about the culture of a multiethnic region of varying borders, so I vote to either ditch the currect article for good, or move it to "Culture of (FY)RoM" and remove the POV rubbish. One thing is certain, that in its currect state this piece of trash is an embarrassment to wikipedia and the NPOV policy. Miskin 12:34, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Interesting...

1."there's no historical reference of a Slavic ethnic group calling itself "Macedonian" prior to the 20th century" Which is why I reverted your vandalism to this page. You just admitted to adding info you knew to be incorrect. 2. "disgustingly POV and unscientific" All of this info came from official government websites. 3. "move back to "culture of RoM"" This has already been discussed. This is incorrect. You already previously stated in your argument that this does not apply to the RoM. 4. "POV rubbish" How is this article pov? freestylefrappe 17:53, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

1. Something needs to be in the article distinguishing the culture of modern Slavic "Macedonians" from those non-Slavic Macedonians of ancient times; it also needs to be noted that the use of "Macedonian" as a descriptor of Slavic inhabitants of the area is anachronistic when used to refer to those living pre-20th century.

2. There's nothing preventing official government websites from being POV.

3. There is today existing a Republic of Macedonia, and the area encompassed by that country does have a long history; therefore, this article needs to make clear it's only referring to the history of the area of the modern RoM, not that of all the ancient Macedonians, or the medieval Bulgarians.

4. Because it follows the official modern RoMacedonian line of anachronistically referring to all previous inhabits and culture of that area as "Macedonian", in essence appropriating a history from other nations and giving it to an ethnic group that only became distinct within the past century. YBeayf 03:59, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Culture is not based on nation states. Religion, ethnicity, music, etc. are factors that form a culture. The idea that Slavic Macedonians just "popped" out of nowhere in the 20th century is ridiculous. If the name of the page is changed from Culture of Macedonia - which currently incorrectly redirects to Macedonia thanks to Theathenae - then it should be Slavic Macedonian Culture. freestylefrappe 22:23, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Two things:

1. Why the hell does this article claim that "Slavic Macedonian Culture" is ancient while the existence of the Slavs did't even exist in antiquity? In case the author missed some history chapters, the Slavs migrated to the region during the Middle Ages. And besides that, why on earth does this article still pretend that there has been a distinct "Slav Macedonian" ethnic group since the middle-ages, since everybody knows that this nationality is a product of the 20th century?

Freestylefrappe said: The idea that Slavic Macedonians just "popped" out of nowhere in the 20th century is ridiculous. Fair enough to have a POV, the problem is when you try to pass it as common knowledge. So I'm not going to spend my time to disprove what you just said by explaining how and why the Slavomacedonian ethnic group did popup in the 20th century, instead I'm just going to ask you to provide some reliable sources which back up your claims by verifying the existence of the Slavomacedonian group prior to the 20th century. As you have probably noticed yourself there are no sources in the bottom of the article, and something tells me that did not just forgot to put them there... If you fail to provide any valid sources, then you realize that I'll have no choice but to edit the article in order to make it reflect historical reality. Miskin 13:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

1. Oh and secondly, why did you just edit my Discussion page in order to hide the pathetic complaints of a sad Slav Macedonian nationalist? Is this another coincidence, or were you protecting me from being insulted..? Miskin 13:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

You're actually gonna try and pick a fight because I reverted vandalism to your page? Do you realize how empty that argument is? Once again I warn you not to vandalize this page or I will report your actions to administration. freestylefrappe 21:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I beg you do so. In the meantime I'm reverting since you have yet failed to provide any valid evidence of your claims. Miskin 18:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discision

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 02:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that, according to "Macedonians (ethnic group)" article, this one should be renamed as "Macedonian culture". The culture of the other parts of the region of Macedonia is described in the country's culture the certain part is in anyway. Just to remind, "Slavic" is NOT according the NPOV policy. Bomac 19:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moving the page

I'll move this page to "Macedonian culture (Slavic)". It is more "representative". Bomac 10:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Distinction

In my humble opinion this article should refer to the "Culture of (FY)RoM" or the "Slavic Macedonian Culture" or the "Northern Macedonian Culture". In any case I believe there should be a clear distinction from a general "Macedonian Culture". Thank you.

[edit] Irrelevant link

In the "See also" section I noiced a link to the article Cultural bias. Not only is it inappropriate and in no way related to anything, but it's also a bit insulting. Therefore I removed it. --B. Jankuloski 01:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hm

"Prior to the Renaissance, while the rest of Europe was still in the middle ages, Byzantine builders and artists were embodying iconography and creating frescoes as early as the 11th century."

This is retarded. First, it is dubious whether Byzantine culture in the region and the Slavic population should be regarded as one and the same. Second, if the criterion for having left the Middle Ages is painting icons and frescoes, I'll eat my freaking hat. Third, it's not important enough for the lead. And BTW, "Middle Ages" is written in capitals. I'm removing the sentence. --91.148.159.4 22:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)