Talk:Macedonia

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I made a minor change. It sounded as if Thrace
is part of Greek Macedonia, in reality Thrace pertains seperate
”diamerisma” of Greece (Greek for compartment)and is a geographical term.
There is the administrative term "perifereia" which indeed includes East Macedonia
and Thrace together. Sorry for the pedantry.


Written by an anon.
Fact:
24 February 2000: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bbb1992 (talk • contribs).



[edit] Relevancy

I did not remove the name of the newpaper or the bank of Macedonia[1]. But u did [2], mistakenly as u say (so no reason to accuse me). What i reverted were nationalistic sentences like The first liberated part of the divided Macedonia, a former yugoslav republic. Be careful why and who u blame... --Hectorian 23:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake! I don't know what exactly happened. I also made a mistake while editing. My bad, sorry again! --Realek 00:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
No problem. --Hectorian 00:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Македонија

First of all, I was shocked that after typing FYROM in the Wikipedia search box, I wasn't automatically redirected to the Republic of Macedonia page. There should be an automatic redirect, or at least put Republic of Macedonia as the term number 1, and not 2.

A huge part of Macedonia was given to Greece by world powers after WWII. Almost no Greeks ever lived there. The "Greek" Macedonia has only been a part of Macedonia for these 60 years, I think the Republic of Macedonia represents Macedonia better than the region given to Greece.

Its fact, not opinion, that the Greeks don't even want to give Macedonia the right to use their ancient name, so that Macedonia won't ask for their territories back. Macedonia is the land of Macedonians, it has always been like that, just because they lost a part of their territory, you can't erase history. MACEDONIA SHOULD REDIRECT TO REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, and then put "Macedonia redirects here, for other uses...". It's the right thing to do. --serbiana - talk 22:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

If u were 'shocked' by what u typed, try typing 'Ireland'...The name has been used for the region of Macedonia for thousands of years, but just 15 years for the FYROM and by FYROM. The whole part of the ancient region of Macedonia (representing the 51% of the definition of the region in the beginning of the 20th century), was liberated by the Greeks in 1912-13 (during the Balkan Wars)-it has nothing to do with the time after the WWII. Search for the Ottoman censa: they clearly show that the Greeks formed the majority of this part.Macedonia(the ancient,historical region with the monuments and the people who speak the language of the ancient Macedonians, represents Macedonia better that ancient Dardania, which was the name of the land of FYROM.
Believe me,it's a fact that Greeks are not afraid of the people of FYROM, so it is not their territorial claims that makes us not letting them use that name. The Fyromians lost nothing of their territory...At least we agree in one thing: Macedonia is the land of Macedonians. the people of FYROM as Slavs who came in the region in the 5th century, so, even if the ancient Macedonians were not Greek (contemporary and the majority of modern historians say they were!), the modern day inhabitants of FYROM have nothing to do with them... --Hectorian 00:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

...And, I was really shocked too when I typed Macedonia and was presented with this disambiguation page that has its priorities wrong:

  1. First it has the region (i.e. the republic plus the Greek province plus Bulgaria/Albania) —which is OK by me ofcourse
  2. Second it has a country of 2.0 million people
  3. Third it has a province of 2.6 million people

Now if the country status is to your opinion automatically giving the precedence in the republic's name, I think you are wrong. Apart from the censa, check also the Google tests in Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Comments to FYROM name support position to see that the term "Macedonia" is twice more commonly used when referring to Greece, than when referring to the republic! I am sure, the users who were shocked like me, were twice as many as the ones who were shocked like you!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 08:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, here's my two Eurocents:
  • I know Macedonia as the household name for the present-day republic of which the capital is Skopje, and I firmly believe everybody in the whole world who knows about this republic also knows it by this name, including those who insist that use of the name is wrong. In fact, I was taught this name in school, back in the days when Yugoslavia was a country and Macedonia a part of it;
  • I know Macedonia as the name of an ancient kingdom, capital Pella, headed by Alexander the Great, amongst others, and generally understood to be Greek, and I strongly believe anyone with any level of general education shares this knowledge with me; in fact, I was taught this fact in school, as part of my classical education;
  • I am well aware that the ancient kingdom of Macedonia was largely located in what is today a part of Greece, and therefore, is almost disjoint, both in language, and in area, with the present-day republic of Macedonia, and there isn't the slightest danger that I will ever confuse the two; moreover, I firmly believe that very few people who have heard of Alexander the Great and the present-day republic will make the mistake of confusing the two;
  • I know Macedonia as the name of a Roman province, which was much larger than the original kingdom of Macedonia, and more or less stood for Greece as a whole; in fact, I was taught this fact in school, as part of my classical education.

So what we see here is exactly what this disambiguation page describes: the term Macedonia is used to describe different things, and - as is the case with very many terms - there isn't actually much danger of confusion, since the intended meaning is practically always clear from the context.

  • It is extremely common for terms to have different meanings. There is nothing special about the term Macedonia in this regard. A screwdriver, for instance, can be a tool or a cocktail. A cocktail can be a drink or a part of an animal. An animal can be a human being with wild behavior or a particular class of organisms that is largely multicellular and capable of locomotion. Etcetera, etcetera. These meanings can happily live alongside each other, and so can the different meanings of the term Macedonia. The insistence, customary among Greek citizens, for the republic of Macedonia to be called 'FYROM' rather than just 'Macedonia', does not really help to clear up confusion (since there isn't much confusion to begin with), but is, rather, a source of ridicule among those who do not happen to be Greek citizens. Everybody who uses the term FYROM uses this term not out of necessity or convenience, but solely with the purpose of appeasing the Greek. Which is, of course, a very valid reason for using a term.

To sum up, I think the present disambiguation page is excellent, one of the shining examples of the powers of Wikipedia; and I believe it would be a dear mistake to replace it with a redirection to any of the specific meanings listed.

Rp 21:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sad news

It seems that some people deleted the links to the articles of the Greek administrative area and the region as a whole. Shame that Wikipedia is used to fulfil newly-acquired nationalist ideas. If only Tito didn't want to invade Greece... Dr. Manos 17:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MatriX

You may want to see how this issue has been handled at British Isles (terminology). --Telex 10:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] why revert?

Why did Aldux revert the previous edit?

Line 9 was edited to * Republic of Macedonia, a European country, with the UN Name: former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

Reverted then to * Republic of Macedonia, a European country, also referred to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

I believe that referring to the United Nations in the specific line is a good choice, as it gives the user a better view of WHY the country is also named FYROM.

Cheers.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dr. Manos (talk • contribs).

For the same reasons for which also Jkelly reverted the anon.: "belabouring point, weird formatting".--Aldux 18:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a Wikipedia:Disambiguation page, meant solely to assist readers to find the article that they wanted when they typed "Macedonia" into the search bar. It is not the place to present the reader with any more information than necessary to help them make the right choice. No reader is going to think "Oh, I thought that I wanted Republic of Macedonia, but now that I see that the UN calls that country something else, I really want Macedonia (region)." Jkelly 19:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
'also referred to as' vs 'recognized by the UN', does not provide tons of unnecessary information to the reader and is more accurate. It may be disambiguation, but at the same time it should provide minimum information on the name dispute as it is an essential part of the term 'Macedonia' and it also might be a probable cause of searching for 'Macedonia' on Wikipedia. Dr. Manos 22:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Euler diagram request

Can someone create an objective Euler diagram for Macedonia, similar to the one used for the British Isles (terminology)?

Thanks :o Dr. Manos 00:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squares and hotels

I removed these squares and hotels. I don't think they are notable to be added to the list.

  • Macedonia Square, in Skopje
  • Macedonia Square, in Sofia
  • Macedonia Square, in Pleven
  • Makedonia Palace, 5-star famous Luxurious hotel on the seafront of Thessaloniki, Greece

When someone proves their notability by writing articles about them, you can add them back to the list. But until then, I don't think they belong in there. For squares, it is different than for villages and towns, which are natable by default. bogdan 11:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bogdan; no need to put them.--Aldux 13:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Ditto that. I added the two Bulgarian squares because I saw another one. Todor→Bozhinov 13:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


Why there are direct links to the administrative subdivision of the greek part? Equivalently one should provide the entire list of administration units in the Republic of Macedonia then? Please, object removal of the list. Koliokolio 14:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYROM should be first

If Macedonia opens to a disambiguation page, then in my view the first link should at least be the one to FYROM. Regardless of the political undercurrents that cause the dispute, one should look at the matter practically. I am certain that the vast majority of users that type in Macedonia are interested in the state, not any of the numerous other usages of the name. Although I don't believe there is a rigid policy in this matter, I still believe that a sovereign state should take precedence, not only due its greater importance at the international stage, but also because it has a higher probability of being the exact term searched for by a person. TSO1D 23:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I've always suspected that most would be looking for the empire of Alexander the Great to help with their homework. Jkelly 02:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The most common name for that would be Macedon. In any case look at "what links here" for Macedonia, and most uncorrected links intend the state, not anything else. TSO1D 02:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
They have not been properly disambiguated yet.   /FunkyFly.talk_  19:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
True, however look at WP:disambig#Primary_topic. Official policy in selecting the primary topic is to find what particular definition most links refer to and what the most common inteded target for a query is. Thus if this page is to be kept as a disambiguation page with no primary article, then the guidelines should at least be followed in choosing the first link. Regardless of geographic, political and other considerations, the Republic of Macedonia is what most links pointing to Macedonia refer to at the moment which gives a rough overview of the more popular usage of the word. While looking at the archives I saw that most other users came to the exact same conclusion, that most users who search for Macedonia are interested in the state, not the general region. There are other similar cases, such as Moldova pointing to the Republic of Moldova, although Moldova is also the historic name for the region Moldova that includes a greater territory which is currently found under its alternate name Moldavia. If all agree that the most common intended article is the one about the republic, than I believe that should at least be given favoured status as the first link, whatever other elaborate arguments can be presented. TSO1D 20:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Moldova is not equal to Moldavia. See Ireland.   /FunkyFly.talk_  20:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Right, the Republic of Moldova is not equal to Moldavia (which can also be written Moldova), it is a part of it, that is my point. In any case, I agree with you, the page should stay as it is, I see the same is done for China or other such examples. TSO1D 22:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, the list is ordered in a geographical rather than political order of hierarchy. Thus Macedonia the region is the superset, containing Macedonia the country and Macedonia the Greek and Bulgarian provinces (which are all parts of the wider region). Historical Macedonia is a second category containing extinct political entities. I have no particular preferences for the order, but a geographical hierarchy does have some logic to it. -- ChrisO 17:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Versions

May I know why was the article reverted? Please answer or I will have to request this article for comment. AdoniCtistai 16:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

See ChrisO's comment right above this line. Macedonia (region) should be first. --Telex 16:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I will take that into consideration. AdoniCtistai 16:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Bonaparte, what's with the RfC fixation? First Todor, now request for comment from an article (??(   /FunkyFly.talk_  16:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is Bonaparte? Some questions: Why does Macedonia (Greece) appear twice? Why does Vardar Macedonia links erroneously? Why does the rest of the geographic meanings (like East Macedonia or West Macedonia) are not on top? AdoniCtistai 16:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

See Macedonia (terminology). I don't like the present version either - I'll try to do something now - please give me a minute. To answer your other question, Bonaparte is a permabanned user, who's edits may be reverted without regard to the 3RR. --Telex 16:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you! Isn`t that better than that former messy version? AdoniCtistai 16:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Enjoy it while your proxy isnt blocked yet.   /FunkyFly.talk_  16:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
?????? AdoniCtistai 16:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dab link cull

Check these edit summaries (both): [3]. I suggest we make a list discussion on what should/should not stay. •NikoSilver• 08:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Southern Europe at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Southern Europe whose scope would include Macedonia. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

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