Talk:Macedon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Macedon is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece; If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former Countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of now-defunct states. If you would like to participate, visit the project page to join.	History Portal Geography Portal Atlas Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (FAQ). (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
WP Former Countries - Things to do: Open tasks for WikiProject Former countries      Edit Correct links: Correct any wikilinks that you find anywhere on Wikipedia where the link is to the wrong version of the state. Some examples of bad links: Referring to the former Free City of Lübeck (an independent entity for 711 years), but the link goes to the modern city of Lübeck. Referring to Napoleon's France, where the link instead goes to modern France. Create redirects: If the article for the correct state does not yet exist, create a redirect to the nearest existing article (if possible) and place {{WPFC|class=Needed}} on the redirect's talk page. Whether or not a redirect has been created, list the wanted article below under "Needed". Article improvement After performing any of these tasks, re-rate the entry via the WPFC banner, and remove the article from the relevant list. Expand: Confederation of the Rhine, Straits Settlements, Belgian Congo, Free City of Lübeck, Kingdom of Ireland, North German Confederation, Spanish East Indies Stubs: Adamawa Emirate, Baranya-Baja Republic, Kingdom of Redonda, Piratini Republic, United States of Colombia Needed: Kingdom of Bavaria Assess: Anjouan, Austrian Empire, German East Africa, Orange Free State Articles requiring particular elements After providing the requested element, please remove the relevant tag from the article's WPFC banner and remove the article from this list. Flag: Alta California, Baranya-Baja Republic, Bishopric of Liège, Lordship of Ireland, Mexican Empire Coat of Arms: Adamawa Emirate, Anjouan, Baranya-Baja Republic, Confederation of the Equator, Congo Free State, New Spain, West Florida Map: Baranya-Baja Republic, California Republic, Holy Roman Empire, Republic of Manitoba Venezuela (second republic) Infobox: Anjouan, Austrian Empire, Baranya-Baja Republic, Belgian Congo, Holy Roman Empire, Orange Free State Quality watch: 4 FA-Class former country articles - 3 GA-Class former country articles.

for older discussions, see Talk:Macedon/Archive 1

Contents 1 International Reactions 2 ancient macedon 3 the image 4 Military 5 Macedon as part of Greece 6 Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia or Republic Of Macedonia 7 Rewrite 8 Disputed Content 9 External links 10 POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article 11 Greek propaganda about Macedonia 12 Addition/reversion of templates? 13 Deleted sentence 14 The Ordinary Name for the Ancient State is "Macedonia" 15 Neutrality 16 Macedon today

[edit] International Reactions

These are useful to understand geopolitics and international perceptions, and the reasons and change of these perceptions through time. Perhaps a corresponding section should be created in these articles.

I'll start with a quote.

«ἡ κυβέρνησις τῶν Η.Π.Α. θεωρεῖ, ὅτι συζήτησις περὶ «Μακεδονικοῦ ἔθνους, Μακεδονικῆς πατρίδος καὶ Μακεδονικῆς ἐθνικῆς συνειδήσεως» ἰσοῦται μὲ δημαγωγίαν, ποὺ δὲν ὑποκρύπτει ἐθνικὴν ἢ πολιτικὴν πραγματικότητα, ἀλλὰ ὑποκρύπτει ἐπεκτατικὰς διαθέσεις κατὰ τῆς Ἑλλάδος».

"The United States government holds, that any discussion of a Macedonian nation, Macedonian homeland, or Macedonian national identity, to be demagoguery, that does not hold ethnic or political reality, but expansionary attitudes towards Greece."

- Edward Stettinius, U.S. Secretary of State, December 26, 1944

http://www.sartzetakis.gr/points/makedonia16.html

[edit] ancient macedon

Macedonia ... Established as a kingdom, according to some authors, by Caranus or Gavanus, descendant of Temerus, son of Hercules; but, according to Herodotus and Thucydides, by Perdiccas, another of the Temenidae of Argos. The name, traditionally derived from Macedo, son of Jupiter or Osiris, at first designated only the district of Macednon, near Pindus mountain. one source.

Macedon son of Zeus and Thyia, brother of Magnes, according to other source. MATIA 00:55, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the image

the black-on-white Vergina Sun looks sort of like the Black Sun. I suppose the image is ok on Vergina Sun, but for this article, I would prefer an image of an actual artefact, maybe Image:Vergina sun.jpg, or a coin or something. dab (ᛏ) 10:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't have a picture of the larnax, but I've got something like coins. I'll have to find them. MATIA 11:20, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Here are some external sources for the proofs that the ancient Macedonians were considered Greek, naturally. I suggest you learn HISTORY and not conform to pseudo-science (remember that Genetics paper in the journal published by some Spanish and Macedonian (sic) - slavonic nationals claiming the Macedonians as a separate ancient entity?). Well regarding such pseudo-science, the paper was published in an impact factor journal of just under 1.5 (meaning it's impact is akin to wiping one's bottom after relieving themselves). In addition, the paper is extremely flawed, considering it's implication is to say that Macedonian-slavs are different from Greeks... point taken, ofcourse they are... but purporting (by Slav nationals) that therefore the genes of the modern Macedonian(sic)-slavs means that they are the descendants of the ancient Macedonians. Where were those ancient genes obtained (Oh I know... they weren't as the researches DID NOT have access to ancient DNA from the ancient Macedonians so comparing Slavic Genes to Greek Genes is ofcourse going to be different). Ergo sum totali crappus!!!

Read these in ancient Hebrew... if you can then see what the ancient Hebrews thought. Books: Daniel (chap.8, 1-22 chap.2 para.39 4-13, 26-28, 31, 38 chap. 7, 2-7) Isiaiah chap. 19, 20 chap. 19,23 Joel chap.3 v.6, Jeremy, Habacoum chap.2, v.5 and the books of the Maccabees (1st book chap. 1, v.1 & 10 chap. 6 v.2, II 8, 20 III 8)

Shalom l'olam.

Sanser ha-Maqdon ha-Yewanit ve-Melekh Yewanim.

I actually feel sorry for you.

[edit] Military

Whew, after the war over "Greek"/"Not", I'm almost afraid to mention weapons... :I Still, given Alex3, & the influence of Phil2's phalanx on the Roman manipular legion, IMHO the article should mention it... Also mention the gastrophetes (crossbow). Trekphiler 19:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Macedon as part of Greece

This is the definition as it is stated in Britannica:

• ancient kingdom centred on the plain in the northeastern corner of the Greek peninsula, at the head of the Gulf of Thérmai. In the 4th century BC it achieved hegemony over Greece and conquered lands as far east as the Indus River, establishing a short-lived empire that introduced the Hellenistic Age of ancient Greek civilization. [1]

Hence I'm editing according to a sourced version. Miskin 17:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia or Republic Of Macedonia

This is a contraversial issue in the hands of politions. I will note that as of January 1, 2004 it is internationaly recognized as the Republic of Macedonia, especially by the United States of America.

Please lets not make this into a propaganda site were Greek nationalist write history their own way and Macedonian nationalist write history their own way.

Note: Just like Greeks think Macedonians are stealing Greek history, Macedonians think Greeks are stealing their history. So lets not be ignorant, nationalistic, and "haters", and lets accept both views.

Thank you for your input, but are you sure this is the right page to post this? This is the article about the Ancient Kingdom of Macedon, not the modern country. Secondly, in my view, it is perfectly legitimate for nationalists (and anyone else) to write history in their own way, as long as sources are provided and valid arguments are made. If you believe that there is a connection between the modern country and the ancient kingdom, then you should provide some evidence. Last, please remember to sign your contributions to the talk pages (You can do this by typing four consecutive ~). All best, TheArchon 05:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

An obvious connection would be that Ancient Macedon and the present-day Republic of Macedonia are located in the same place, plus or minus some territories that belong to their neighbors. Also I would like to note that history is written by the winners and who won during the Balkan Wars and even the Cold War.

I will also attach a link of a genetic study done by the National Geographic Channel, a unbiast source, and other organizations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

Please see Macedonia (terminology), especially the maps. Ancient Macedon was in present day Greek/Aegean Macedonia. The (Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia used be Paionia, and was inhabited by Paionians, a people of Thraco-Illyrian (i.e. Albanian) ethnicity. Also, that genes "research" was widely discredited and ridiculed by the scientific community as lacking scientific merit (click here), apparently, according to that, the Japanese also have sub-Saharan origins. If you are into genes research, try reading this. --Telex 20:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not a matter of where ancient and modern Macedonia was/is located, it is a matter of the people living there. The Slavs entered the Balkans at 600 A.D, whereas Ancient Macedon ceased to exist as an independent nation at around 200 B.C. It is about 800 years difference there, pal. And let me remind you that the Greeks has more evidence on their side, for example, you do know that all macedonian texts found is written in Greek? You do know that the Macedonian culture was Greek? You do know that the ancient Macedonians worshipped Greek gods? You do know that all macedonian names but one is Greek? Not one has Slavic roots. The only arguments the modern macedonians has is some words of Demosthenes and their location. That is about it. Not to mention that ancient macedon was closer located, no, actually it practically was exacly the greek province of Makedonia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beares (talk • contribs) 13:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC).Beares 14:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

To add on, that link of yours appears to have a lot of faults in it. The Turks entered Asia Minor at ~1000 A.D, Medieval times. How can they be of the "oldest Mediterannean people"? Not to mention the French, which actually has Germanic roots. Is Germany located around the Mediterannean? No. And last of all, the Slavs. It is widely known that they lived in Russia, and did not enter the Balkans before 600 A.D. And ah yes, the Greeks were Indo-Europeans.Beares 14:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The study attached by the anonymous user is quite interesting. However, it is scientifically questionable for a number of reasons. First, there is no reference to the size of the sample and the selection process, or the methodology used. Therefore it is impossible for us to form an independent judgement re its validity. However, a clue may be found in the fact that it was published in a relatively obscure journal, and that it has not been cited in any other research ever since (Entirely as an aside, please note that a large number of authors is often a warning sign for bad science, because it hints at mass production of articles.) Even if the extraordinary suggestions in the article are taken at face value, all that the study claims is that the inhabitants of the RoM are genetically closer to the Basques, the Jews and the Iranians, among others, than to the Greeks. There is, in other words, no reference whatsoever to Ancient Macedon. As to the National Geographic site, I cannot understand what it is supposed to show, because it works at a scale of tens of thousands of years. Perhaps you could enlighten us? (Please remember to sign the post.) TheArchon 07:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

This article mentions Borza, Hammond and Fox in its sources. Even though the two latter are widely considered as experts, 99% of the article's content reflects the views of Borza. Borza is one of the scholars who have extreme opinions on the subject and are not in agreement with the wider academic community. I know this because I have a Classics-related degree, and I find it strange that he was chosen as the primary source for this article. I corrected the Macedonia (region) link to Macedonia (Greece) because the original territory of Macedon was only a sub-region of the current Greek Macedonia. The central-Northern parts of the modern region were purely non-Macedonian, non-Greek lands. Anyway I think the article should be subject to large rewrite. anon

Borza becomes a source in the language/Hellenic controversy section, not a source in the other sections. And so many people wrote this article, without Borza as a reference; Borza is not overrepresented, and in fact Borza is only vital for one or two sentences. This article is constantly in the process of being rewritten, and I'm certainly not satisfied with it. The French Wiki has an article that focuses on the Macedonian army which alone is better than this article. Bottom line for now however: the Ancient Macedonian language is of unknown/disputed classification at the moment, and Borza or no Borza, a Wikipedia article can only promote the completely Greek theory to a certain point. About the wider academic community, read this, a fine, neutral-minded essay by Ernst Badian, professor emeritus of History: [2]. This Wikipedia article should be along those lines when it comes to the Hellenic controversy. Alexander 007 11:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I was asking myself if we shouldn't remove the "Hellenic controversy" section and transfer it to Ancient Macedonian language. I have a feeling that we give to much importance to linguistics and ethnic questions, while we are not giving enough importance to political and social history. To be honest, I have a feeling that most of the article is a mess. Opinions? Aldux 16:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the Language and Hellenic controversy would have its best place in Ancient Macedonians, an (as yet non-existent) article specifically about the ancient people (including the Macedonian people before unification under Macedon), and not about the kingdom, which was, after all, a kingdom, an empire, not an ethnic group or language. And the article has needed a fix since it was created, but writing/rewriting Macedon was never a priority for me. Alexander 007 16:12, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, the discussion of the Macedonian calendar would be better in its own article, as in Attic calendar. Alexander 007 16:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I must admit I have neither the knowledge to start such an article myself, nor the courage: an article like Ancient Macedonians would be subject to constant attack from Greek and Macedonian nationalists, transforming it into a battlefield. But Ancient Macedonian Calendar, seems easier to do, and I may do it myself when I get a new computer; the one I've got now is literally disentegrating ;-) Aldux 16:39, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Ancient Macedonians will not be easy, and many references will be needed. I've been putting off the article since back in August 2005, when I think I first thought of it. Alexander 007 16:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

This dispute is based entirely on theoretical views, most of them are wrong in the light of new evidence from archaeology. One has to consider those evidence in order to create, or recreate, a correct image of ancient Macedonia. Archaeological research shows us that Macedonia was a part of ancient Greece, of course with many differences (just like Sparta or Epirus). As for the language dispute, look up the newest publications about new inscriptions that came to light. We now have a more correct image of Macedonia, than that of Demosthenes or Polybios, whose ideas have to be examined with much caution, since they were political adversaries of the Macedonians.

[edit] Disputed Content

Is it not obvious, by this page in and of itself, that this content is disputed? The name Macedonia and anything related to it is internationally disputed. Thus, it needs to be placed in the article. Not to do so, would unethically and illegaly mis-represent information. I will be adding it in. Thanks -

Have you read the article lately? The controversial stuff has been removed to a new article. The policy is to specify the "totally disputed" content, otherwise I can place the tag on any article I want. Alexander 007 20:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Tell me, is this (from the Columbia Encyclopedia) internationally disputed as well, because it is pretty much identical to what is mentioned in the article? Latinus 20:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC) (it mentions Greece - oh, how bad!)

[edit] External links

The external links that have been restored or introduced all represent nationalistic POV, either Greek or Macedonian, and I feel we don't need to stuff the External links section with nationalistic propaganda. Aldux 10:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Does the respected Dutch lady read Herodotus? I'm talking about Alexander I. talk to +MATIA 12:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

And where did Hammond go? Is he a less respected classicist? talk to +MATIA 12:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

No mention of Hammond at Ancient Macedonian language either. Can someone clarify what is going on around here? talk to +MATIA 12:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Matia. The controversy section has been moved to a new article recently written by Alexander007, titled Ancient Macedonians. The transfer of this section had been first discussed in Talk:Macedon#Rewrite. Ciao! Aldux 16:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Aldux. I'll try to catch up. I've restored at first the external links, and then removed two. talk to +MATIA 16:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek propaganda about Macedonia

If you feel intelligent and want to know the truth about Macedonia then go to page: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/

Greek propaganda lies flourish on the internet. It's shame Greeks want to steal our history. But we won't allow it.

not at all, if you feel intelligent, you should by all means visit http://www.geocities.com/stojangr/ , where you will find unrefutable proof of the Macedonicity of the Macedonians, carved in Macedonian stone. dab (ᛏ) 15:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

@Dieter Bachmann ( Pan-Slavism Fan )

Have you big Fantasy???...

... See: ( stojanov = bulgaro-macedonian propagandist links from Bulgaria!!!

and hear is... made in Soros propaganda...

• I think you are intelligent...! :) --Asteraki 12:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Asteraki, one link: sarcasm (making fun of the kooky nationalists on one side of the fence, only to be applauded by the kooky nationalists on the other... by those perceptive enough to even recognize their nemesis are made fun of at least... if nationalism is the measles of mankind half of the Balkans should stay in bed) dab (ᛏ) 13:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The Greeks is not trying to "steal your history", it is actually the other way around. I am really annoyed when persons such as you comes in here and begin talking about things, whom which you know nothing. For instance, as I have said: The Slavs entered the Balkans at 600 A.D, the ancient Macedonians was conquered by Romans at around 164 B.C. That is 764 years difference, and we already know that the Ancient Macedonians existed way before that, the first reference to a macedonian state was at 700 B.C. 1300 years difference —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beares (talk • contribs) 14:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC).Beares 14:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, many of those customs applies to ancient Greeks too. How do explain that you talk slavic, whereas it is clear that the ancient macedonians spoke greek? And just because a people existed in that region before you, it does not make you that people. Is the modern americans descedants of the native americans? No, of course not! The same thing applies to you, the Greeks on the other hand has been there since around 1500 B.C., they have several proofs that they existed there at the same time as the ancient macedonians. Not to mention that many ancient macedonian customs was influenced by the Myceaneans. If they would not have been greeks, they would not have anything to do with the Myceaneans because there is a 300 years glap between them (Myceaneans being destroyed around 1000 B.C. and the first Macedonian state being created at 700 B.C.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beares (talk • contribs) 14:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC).Beares 14:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

There was a city on the bank of the Tigris. It was one of the many cities that received their Greek names Seleukeia from Seleucus I. Nicator. In Aramaic language Seleukeia was called Salwakia. Isn’t it strange that a resemblance is clear to modern Slovakia?

Here is an example of how ‘l’ and the vowel switch places in a word that contains the ‘s-l’ syllable. The Latin word for sun is ‘sol’, and in Russian it is called ‘solnce’ (солнце), while in Polish language ‘słonce’. Similarly the vowel disappears in the Russian noun ‘posol’ (посол), meaning ambassador. Who is? Posol. Who is not? (Кого нет?) Posla.

In ancient Noricum there was a settlement called by the Romans ‘Flavium Solvense’. Who were its inhabitants, these Flavio-Solvenes, if not Flavio-Slovenes? Kelts? C’mon. Flavium Solvense stood on the locality of modern ‘Zollfeld/Gosposvetsko polje’, which - after the fall of Western Rome (and with it Noricum) - from the early medieval period onward was the center of Slovenian kingdom called Karantanija (Carinthia/Kärnten/Koroška).

There are ancient toponyms of Slavic origin! Three are clearly Slavic in the gulf of Trieste alone: Tergeste, Gradus, Timavus. Tergeste comes from ‘trg’ (pronounced terg, tərg) or ‘tržišče’ (both meaning market), Gradus comes from ‘grad’ (city, castle), Timavus, a subterranean river, from ‘tema’ (darkness) just like ‘Temenica’ (also a subterranean river) in Dolenjska region of modern Slovenia. Three Slavic ancient toponyms in a relatively small area of the gulf of Trieste! There are others in other regions.

Slavs arrived in 6th century?! Are you kidding? Where did they come from? Fell from the sky? Perhaps they came from planet Venus? Genocide of pan-European proportions not noticed and recorded by one ancient or medieval historic source??????? Some Slavs might have arrived in sixth century. Some northern Slavs, that is. This, however, says nothing about preexisting Slavic populations in areas south of the Danube. The fairy tale about Slavic arrival in 6th century was introduced into historiography by German nationalistic historians to legitimate a process of germanisation in Habsburg Empire and in other so called ‘German’ states. ‘We were here first’ the argument subsequently was. These nationalists were ideological predecessors of Nazism and its Lebensraum eastern policy. It is very sad to see their racist story repeated over and over again in 21st century. However, this preposterous story will not last forever. The Berlin Wall has fallen. It will not be the end of the world when the story of ‘Slavic arrival in 6th century’ falls also, nor will it be the end of Greece. Just a better understanding of our past and the culture we all share. Borders are set by binding international treaties. No need to change them.

Macedonian aristocracy took Greek language as their lingua franca. In the south this language prevailed in ancient times already. In Paionia and Moesia the sloven language, general Philotas would not learn, prevailed. I wrote this comment in English. Nevertheless I am (besides being a European, and most of all Human) a Slovenian. It is as simple as that.

In a way the Greeks have a point though. Macedonian aristocracy was ‘stealing’ Greek cultural heritage. Not 50 years, but 25 centuries ago. It is clearly seen in the description of the trial against general Philotas by Quintus Curtius Rufus (book VI) that not all Macedonians approved of this.

Seleucos I. Nicator? Or was he Nikoslav? Nikoslavko? 211.41.232.108 08:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? German propaganda? Nazists? I am talking about Procopius, do you know WHO that was? Do you know when he lived? Do you know that you just said something ignorant? You have no evidence that the ancient Greek was like french to the Macedonians, on the other hand, 6000 texts refering to that subject in that region (Macedon) has been found, ALL WRITTEN IN GREEK. The ancient coins of Macedon is not written in Slavic, they are written in GREEK.

Herodotus, the father of history, calls the Ancient Macedonians greek. The cities of which you are talking about (Tergeste etc...) might have changed name over the years, as has many cities. New Mexico was founded over Tenochitlan, and its name is not the same at all. And as for the Roman settlement, the area around was called Slovenia because of that city, the Romans did not call the area "Flavium Solvense" because of the Slovenians, the Slovenians are called Slovenians because of that province. The people which lived at that point before the Slavs was called Illyrians and Dacians, the biggest Dacian tribe beeing the Getai (Getae). To add on, why does no slavic macedonians live in what was Ancient Macedon? Because you do know that ancient Macedon was located further south? Modern Macedonia is mainly located at ancient Paionia. And I have never heard of the Greeks chasing away the Slavs from what was ancient Macedon... strange, isn't it? Beares 11:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Seleukeia was the citys name, not Salwakia. The city was enlarged by Seleukos I Nikator, but its original name was not only Salwakia. And just to add on, that proves nothing, he renamed the city after himself, what has that to do with Salwakia? Also, how do you explain that they (The Macedonians) where allowed to participate in the Olympic Games, whereas the Thracians, which we know was hellenized barbarians, was not, even before Alexander III (The Great)?.Beares 11:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Nicator means Victor, practically: The one who wins. It comes from the Greek word "Niki", ancient "Nike". The Greeks had a godess named "Nike"; the godess of victory, "Victoria" in latin. Nikoslav or Nikoslavko is something that has evolved from Nicator or Nike. Also, try not to insult me, I know that the Slavs does not come from Venus or outer space, they originally came down from Russia in the 6-7th century A.D. as Procopios says. Did I tell who it was? A Byzantine historian. Living at that time, maybe a little later, although I am quite sure he lived at that time, under Emperor Justinian, who was the emperor by then. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beares (talk • contribs) 11:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC).Beares 11:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I am aware that wikipedia is not meant to be a discussion forum, however, for several reasons I must reply. First of all, no need to SHOUT. I did not edit the main page, nor will I. I recognize it reflects the mainstream historic interpretation. My initial comment was a response to a statement above, that it is ‘widely known’ how Slavs arrived in 600 AD. This is known widely only by those, who are ignorant of the existence of ancient Slavic toponyms. Such ignorance will not last forever, if people are allowed to respond. Thank you Beares for reminding me what Victory is and who Procopios was. Perhaps next I need to be informed of who Homer was? Do you know who Jordanes was? And what he wrote about the relationship between the names ‘Sloveni’ and ‘Veneti’ in his Getica, the history of Goths? According to him the two names are synonyms. He lived in 6th century so he probably knew what he was saying about Slavs. You must know what Tit Livy says about Veneti in the first paragraph of his history of Rome. I apologize if the phrase 'from planet Venus' offended you. Some Slavic nations are called Wendi by Germans and Vendi by Hungarians. It offends most of them also. Yes, I know the ‘mainstream’ scientific explanation. Slavs ‘stole’ the name from non-Slavic Veneti after ‘The arrival’. From this ‘mainstream’ explanation it would appear the common Germans (and Hungarians) were so ignorant they didn’t even notice this arrival, not until some twelve centuries had past, and thus kept calling some of their newly arrived Slavic neighbours Veneti, Venedi, Vendi as if nothing had happened.

Secondly, that Slovenia received its name from non-Slavic ‘Flavium Solvense’!? One giant problem with this interpretation is that the word ‘Sloveni’ is the original Slavic name for all Slavs, not just for Slovenes. Why are the people of Russia then Slavs (Sloveni)? They live thousands of miles away from this settlement and in all likelihood the great majority of Russians never even heard of this ‘Flavium Solvense’, which by the way stood in southern Austria and therefore did not give name to Slovenia. Think of the implication. If some Slavs supposedly settled in Noricum in 6th century and ‘stole’ the name ‘Sloveni’ from these non-Slovene Solvenes or from their region, the conclusion can only be that Slavs didn’t even have a name prior to 6th century. So why is it then, that you feel offended when I ask, if the Slavs, who, according to implications of your own explanation of ‘Flavium Solvense’, didn’t have a name before 6th century, fell from Venus? Shouldn’t Slavs be offended by your explanation? Isn’t it typical that Slavs are always ‘stealing’ names from extinct non-Slavs? And in this case even from non-Slovenes whose settlement was called ‘Solvense’. Are you even suggesting seriously that non-Slavic Slavs existed in the antique? I’m sorry. It doesn’t hold water, this explanation. ‘Flavium Solvense’ was so named by Romans, because of Slovenes, who lived there. Pliny the Elder wrote ‘Solvense’ because a Roman would break his tongue trying to pronounce ‘Slovense’. To this day most Italians cannot help themselves and pronounce ‘Zlouenia’, while the Spanish help themselves by adding a vowel and call the country ‘Eslovenia’. If someone was to claim that Greeks are called Greeks after the name of the region known as Greece, from the now extinct non-Greek ancient Greeks, who were genocided by newly arrived modern Greeks, in my opinion, the Greeks should rightfully consider such a claim a tasteless joke. When speaking of Slavs such tasteless jokes are considered ‘mainstream science’ in 21st century.

Thirdly, you speak of Illyrians. You are aware I suppose that ‘de facto’ first Yugoslavia was created by France in 1809 but was not called Yugoslavia? It was called ‘Illyrian provinces’. Rest assured that the people of the time did not have Albanians in mind. It was so named for a simple reason. Prior to Napoleon’s defeat (and the rise of German nationalism) nobody seriously believed in the ‘Slavs-arrived-in-the-6th-century’ mantra. Such an interpretation had not yet become ‘the mainstream’. Illyrian meant South Slav in general and Serbo-Croat in particular. The term Illyrian was used in this meaning until about 1848, when it was eventually abandoned, mainly (but not exclusively) because it could not have ever been reconciled with German nationalistic interpretation of early medieval Byzantine historians. Namely, how could the first historically known Slavs (the emphasis on the phrase ‘the first historically known’) have attacked Byzantium in 6th century from their ‘motherland’ in the north, if Illyrians were obviously present in the Roman Empire centuries sooner? Today, when Illyrians are no longer considered to be Slavs by the ‘mainstream’, this is no longer a problem, but there is another one. How to call the common language of those Southern Slavs, who live southeast of Slovenia and northwest of Bulgaria and Macedonia, if not Illyrian? So nowadays there is no choice but to use ‘coined’ words such as Serbo-Croat, Croato-Serbian, Serbo-Montenegrin, Bosano-Croatian, Serbo-Bosnian, Croato-Montenegrin etc. Don’t say Serbo-Croats were called Illyrians because the Illyrian provinces were created on the territory of non-Slavic ancient Illyricum. Not true. They were called Illyrians centuries prior to the creation of Illyrian provinces, for example in the Republic of Dubrovnik, for the territory of which it could hardly be claimed that it extended over ancient Illyricum. They were called Illyrians, because outside ‘the arrival’ fairy tale they are Illyrians.

Fourthly, Tenochtitlan is no longer called so, because it was destroyed by the Spanish invaders and the whole culture has changed. Of the three above-mentioned toponyms only Tergeste changed its name. It is now called ‘Trieste’ and ‘Trst’, its region, however, is called ‘Tržaško’. The name is derived from Slovenian noun ‘tržišče’ or, if one insists, from Bosano-Croat-Montenegrin-Serbian noun ‘tržište’, both meaning market. Timavus (Timau in Italian; Timav in Slovenian), and Gradus (Grado, Gradež) still carry their ancient names. So if there are ancient toponyms of Slavic origin in an area extending from the city of ‘Brigantium’ (Bregenz) in Rhaetia towards the northwest to the city of ‘Bylazora’ (Veles) in Paionia towards the southeast, how could the Slavs have only arrived in 6th century??? The sole answer can be: some Slavs (northern) invaded in 6th century. Procopios, among others, speaks of them. Other Slavs (southern) were already present centuries sooner.

Fifthly, why are the inscriptions, coins etc. all written in Greek? If they are indeed Greek, all, each and every one of them, without exceptions, this must be the case, because Greek language prevailed in Macedonia ‘proper’ and for this reason in Macedon kingdom officially, but not among the people living in Paionia. Mind you, however, that linguists are trapped in ‘6th century arrival’ fairy tale like everyone else and cannot simply depart from it, without having the backing of credible historians. Therefore when interpreting inscriptions (anywhere, not just in Macedonia) they don’t even consider the possibility that some inscriptions might be Slavic, because they know ‘a priori’ that Slavs arrived in 6th century. One must admit at least hypothetically that outside the framework of ‘6th century arrival’ the term ‘foreign language’ used by Rufus, when speaking of Greek language in his description of the trial against Philotas, allows for the original ancient Macedonian language to be viewed as proto-Slavic and not simply as a northern Greek dialect. Why did Philotas need interpreters if ancient Macedonian was a northern Greek dialect? Were interpreters used for other Greek dialects also?

Lastly, I didn’t claim the name Nike is of Slavic origin nor that Seleukeia was a Slavic city. I made a hypothesis on what Seleukos might mean in Slavic languages, based on the Aramaic name of the city. To the best of my knowledge Targum was written after and not prior to the reign of Seleucos I. Nicator so I don’t really see the relevance of an argument that the city was renamed by him. Although the similarity between Salwakia and Slovakia is obvious, I put a question-mark behind the hypothesis. Generally, any hypothesis may survive a scrutiny or it may not. That Seleukeia was called ‘Salwakia’ in Aramaic, however, is not my idea, the information comes from the following source. I consider it credible, if someone does not, the task of arguing, why the particular statement of this encyclopedia is not to be considered credible, rests on him.

h**p://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view_page.jsp?artid=451&letter=S&pid=0

(change ** with tt)

I will try not to make further comments. Please do not delete. The two comments were meant to remind people of the ideology on the basis of which the story of 6th century Slavic arrival was introduced into historiography, and are based on the awareness that some toponyms of Slavic origin were recorded in ancient times, of which some are preserved to this day, as well as on historic sources such as Getica. If interested, the following link leads to a discussion on the issue of Slavic origin from the point of view of a very, very controversial proto-indoeuropean researcher, who is certainly not some Slavic ultranationalist, but rather a non-Slavic professor at the University of Utrecht. No need to take every statement as pure gold, but he is certainly not an amateur. Obviously his work is considered controversial, like every discussion outside the ‘Slavs-arrived-in-6th-century’ framework necessarily will be, after listening to one and the same fairy tale for almost two centuries.

h**p://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf

If any of the statements in my comments offend someone, I apologize. On the other hand many feel offended by ‘mainstream’ interpretation concerning the origin of Slavs. Nobody ever apologizes to them. 220.117.172.198 13:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I did not really shout, I more or less highlighted the words, I did not mean to offend you. Second, I did not inform you what Victory is, I informed you that calling Seleukos I Nikator Nikoslav is wrong, as Nikator is entirerly Greek. Neither did I mean to offend you by talking about Procopius, I was merely responding to your theory about Germans and Nazism. Also, Procopius is known as the last really serious historian of ancient times, I think we should trust him.

Third, yes, the Germans and Hungarians might have been ignorant, that was your point earlier on, "We was first", why are you changing your arguments? Fourth, of course they where called "Illyrian Provinces", that place should by right be called Illyria. Because it was Illyria, just because the Slavs live there it does not make it less Illyrian, lets take Italy as an example, if the French would invade Italy and eventually populate it, so that the Italians became a minority or did not even exist anymore (It is just an example, folks!), would Italy be called something else? No, it would still be Italy. If the Slavs arrived at that time, they might have been accepted as Illyrians, and thus they was called Illyrians, still, it does not make them Illyrians. Also, the Illyrians was called Illyroi by the Greeks, while you clearly state that the Slavs was called something else, not to mention that the place where F.Y.R.O.M is located now was Paionian, no one mention Slovenians there, the place over that was Dacian, populated by Dacians, mainly Getai, no mention of Slovenians, thus, all the areas even close to Makedonia was not Slavic. And there is no mention of Slavs in Makedonia, but there is clear mentions that they where Greeks and spoke Greek.

About the topic "How could the Slavs attack the Byzantines...", maybe because Illyrians and Slavs was not the same people? Or even if they originally where, was not called that? I seriously do not understand that, and I doubt that was your point. Fifthly, even if your point about Tergeste etc...is right, it does not prove anything about Makedonia, merely that Slavs might have lived there at the same time, BUT those where clearly called Illyrians, not Macedonians, so the only mentions about them is that they were Illyrians, and thus it has nothing to do with this diskussion.

All the coins and texts, and absolutely most (If not all, again) inscriptions is clearly Greek. Herodotus says that they spoke Greek, Thucydides says that they spoke Greek, there is no mention that they spoke any other language, merely an other dialect. Now to answer your point. Makedonia was isolated and was at that time no important area, so it had little contact with other Greeks, so their dialect remained more Doric than that of other Greeks. The ancient Macedonian royalty claimed Agread descentantship, while the people was Doric. They spoke Greek, we have not found any texts or coins in other languages because there were no other languages there. Not to mention that the Persians named the Macedonians Greeks with sunhats. The Persians had several Greeks at their courts, some knew Greek, which means that they know what they are talking about. And they do not mention any other people living there.

I hardly understand your fifth point, but I will answer from what I understood. I know that Seleukeia was called Salwakia, what I meant was that Salwakia was renamed by Seleukos and can not have anything to do with Salwakia, as it came from the name Seleukos. And what does it prove? Nothing, just because an other people called the city another thing which sounds like Slovakia, it does not make the people renaming the city come from that place, because Seleukos renamed it Seleukeia, not Salwakia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.217.145.164 (talk) 14:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Addition/reversion of templates?

I'm not much of a fan of these massive navigation templates. That said, it is not clear to me why Template:Ancient Greece and Template:History of Greece were removed from this article. User:Aldux states that it was for the same reason that the Greek language template was removed from the Ancient Macedonian language article. As I understand it, there is some uncertainty about whether or not the Ancient Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek or not, and there is not enough information available to settle the issue. However, there really isn't any dispute about whether or not Macedon (the Kingdom) is an important topic in the study of Ancient Greece or Greek History. I'd like to ask Aldux to reconsider that edit. Jkelly 18:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jkelly. I've restored the template:Ancient Greece, as you're probably wright that whatever language was spoken in the country, Macedon is an important topic for Ancient Greece. But I maintain my objections for the Template:History of Greece. This template is part of the History of Greece series, and Macedon is already covered in Ancient Greece, which is in the series (while Macedon is not). Also, one template seems to me to be enough.--Aldux 19:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Jkelly 19:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

STEALING YOUR HISTORY!!???? What audacity you have my friend!!! Heraklios 19:29, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The burglar screams to scare-off the landlord! (Very appropriate Greek proverb -fits like a glove!)  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 21:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Bravo Niko! its amazing how ancient knowledge pertains to now! lets not forget this Greek proverb either "There is no success without hardship" I just wish the hardship of defending my Makedonion heritage was over! Heraklios 23:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, thought of that too, but it didn't have the "SCREAMS" part... NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 23:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

True! ;) TO ALL SKOPIANS, Still waiting for Ancient Macedonian in a slav script and "Solun" reference. Heraklios 18:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted sentence

"Macedonia is one of the greek states back in the ancient times, and still stands in modern times(not f.y.r.o.m.)"

I took the liberty to delete this sentence for several reasons:

• It is clearly POV
• Ancient Macedon doesn't stand today
• There are no more greek states, only one united Greece
• Macedon was a kingdom
• It clearly states at the top that it is in Northern-most Greece, so the (not in Republic of Macedonia) part is pretty much useless

Zaebangad 21:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Ordinary Name for the Ancient State is "Macedonia"

Calling this article "Macedon" is somewhat bizarre and possibly occurring under the influence of Greece/FYROM politics.

The standard term for the ancient state in English today is "Macedonia". "Macedon" is an older and poetic term. And when "Macedon" is/has been used, it has/has had equal application to the modern region as to the ancient kingdom.

This article should be titled "Macedonia (ancient state)" if it is to be separate from a general article on the history of the Macedonian region. -- 64.175.66.2, 01:36, 15 September 2006

I have some sympathy for this argument. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to use the same approach that distinguishes ancient Rome from the modern city; in other words, have the article at Ancient Macedonia, similar to how ancient Rome is at (surprise!) Ancient Rome. I'd be interested to know what other editors think of this suggestion. -- ChrisO 00:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. I'd be ok with all Macedonia (ancient), Macedonia (ancient state) and Ancient Macedonia. In fact, all of these should be redirects, regardless of the final name. •NikoSilver• 10:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

While Ancient Macedonia isn't bad, a better solution could be Kingdom of Macedonia; but I agree that the present Macedon isn't fully satisfying.--Aldux 10:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Most of the dictionaries cite the ancient Kingdom as 'Macedon'. The article Macedonia (terminology) explains clearly how the term "Ancient Macedonia" can have many interpretations. Miskin 12:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Aldux, about Kingdom of Macedonia, though IMO Ancient Macedonia would be the best for the article's title (but in this case, we would have a problem on which 'Ancient Macedonia' we are refering to: the early kingdom? Philip's kingdom? Alexander's empire or the Roman province? or maybe all?-in any case still they have nothing to do with FYROM;-)...). Hectorian 13:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Kingdom or not, it has to keep its simple name (like Greece vs Hellenic Republic, Germany vs Federal Republic of Germany etc). Everybody used to call that thing (and still often does) simply Macedonia. So we must do the same and simply call it Macedonia, but since that one is taken as a dab page, we'll add the parentheses: Macedonia (ancient). This is the simplest way of referring to it, and helps with the pipe trick too. •NikoSilver• 16:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that parenthesis are IMO quite ugly, and, when possible, should be avoided. After all for the article on modern Greece's monarchy the article is titled Kingdom of Greece, not Greece (kingdom). Also we should keep in mind this is an article on the ancient Macedonian state, and ancient Macedonia, as Hectorian noted, tends to indicate the territory and would extend also to Roman Macedonia.--Aldux 18:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Question: Suppose there was no contemporary:

• Macedonia note, I just wrote [[Macedonia (region)|]]
• Macedonia note, I just wrote [[Macedonia (Greece)|]]
• Macedonia note, I just wrote [[Macedonia (country)|]], or any
• Macedonians note, I just wrote [[Macedonians (Greek)|]]
• Macedonians note, I just wrote [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|]], or there was no reason for
• Macedonia note, I just wrote [[Macedonia (terminology)|]]

How would you call the article? Wouldn't you just call it Macedonia? That's why we have the parentheses, and that's why we have the pipe trick! I didn't use to like the parentheses either, but that is their purpose, and Fut.Perf. convinced me about it instantly. When you type an ancient-related article, you will be just using [[Macedonia (ancient)|]] and you'll be done with it! •NikoSilver• 20:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The point is that this is not an article on the Macedonian region in antiquity, but of a definite political entity that ended in 167 BC (or 148 BC, if one prefers). To this entity, much of what we call today Macedonia was not truly part. Also, the modern republic is called Republic of Macedonia, not Macedonia (country); and as for Macedonia (Greece), Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (Greek), we could easily remove the parenthesis, and in my opinion should.--Aldux 21:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

How are you going to remove both parentheses from Macedonians (ethnic group) and Macedonians (Greek)? The parentheses signify that the second part is redundant, and that the name should be that, and only that, which is before the parentheses. The Kingdom was (and mostly is) simply called plain Macedonia. If there were other Macedonias too, simply called as such, then let them have their parentheses also! Also, remember this? (<-posted only for the content of the discussion -not as a precedent) •NikoSilver• 23:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

This article states: "Macedon or Macedonia (from Greek Μακεδονία; see also List of traditional Greek place names) was the name of an ancient kingdom in the northern-most part of ancient Greece, bordering the kingdom of Epirus on the west and the region of Thrace to the east." I believe that stating Macedon was part of Ancient Greece is a Greek biased opinion and that both sides should be represented.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82FirebirdTA (talk • contribs).

This is taken from the head of the Britannica article, so it's as neutral as it gets. Miskin 12:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

What on earth does it matter what Britannica says when the views are clearly not represented properly?? --B. Jankuloski 22:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Brittanica is one of many good tests for what the mainstream view of the subject is. The only real question here is whether "Macedon was not part of ancient Greece" is a significant minority viewpoint worth mention, or a fringe one that isn't. I suspect it is the latter. Jkelly 23:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Britannica could write "at the northern-most edge" just as well as "in the northern-most part", it's a distinction only sad nationalists with their heads up their bottoms will ever even care about. dab (𒁳) 14:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Macedon today

Hi. Does anyone know what percentage of ancient Macedon corresponds to each of the present day Greek Macedonia, FYROM and Bulgaria? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Helladios Helladios 09:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC) (talk • contribs) 09:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Macedon approximately coincides with Macedonia (Greece). Compare the images:

See also the featured article Macedonia (terminology)#In history. NikoSilver 10:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)