Talk:Luxembourgish language
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[edit] Language etiquette
Question Hi. Can anyone tell me tell me more about the linguistic etiquette in Luxembourg. I am a native english-speaker but I also speak French and High German but not Luxembourgish. If I go to Luxembourg which language should I use to talk to people in the shops, on the streets etc?
[edit] ?
quote: "For example, the name for a bus driver is Buschauffeur which would be Busfahrer in German and Chauffeur de bus in French."
Buschauffeur is the name for a bus driver which is also used in the Netherlands (and in Belgium?). Is Luxembourgisch not a mix of german, french and dutch (i.e flemish)?
[edit] related?
Is this related to other dialects of Low German? If so, say so.
- It isn't.
[edit] virtually identical
I have been told that the language spoken by a Germanic minority in Transylvania (Siebenbürger Sachsen in German) is virtually identical to Luxembourgish. According to the German Wikipedia, they were settlers in the 12 century that came from the Mosel region. Does anybody know more about their language? Should it be included here? pir 00:25, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thats true!
I found a website ( Siebenbürgen und die Siebenbürger Sachsen (German)) on which they say that the cities over there have been promoted by Sigismund of Luxembourg (1387-1437). Maybe this information can help this discussion.
--Jangli 07:45, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This was added recently:
//correction// ...the verb to propose is proposéieren from the French proposer, which in German would be vorschlagen, in Nordluxembourgish it means fierschloen.
Does this mean that the Luxembourgish verb "to propose" is "fierschloen" and not "proposéieren"? Or am I missing something? Acegikmo1 04:33, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Both exist and are used interchangeably with similar frequency. I dond't really know what the difference is really, maybe it's historical - there was a tendency by people wanting to appear as very posh to use words derived from French (fr:proposer ->lux:proposéieren) ; after the WW2 Nazi occupation there was a tendency to avoid words that were extremely similar to German (de:vorschlagen -> lux:fierschloen). I don't know, and all this is primary research, really. - pir 09:21, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am replacing it with 'Buschauffeur'
--Stereo 02:02, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)
Luxembourgish has dialects like any other language. The more rural and the further away from France the more words originate in Germanic languages. French (i.e. Alsace) and German (Mosel, Saar and Eifel) dialects near Luxembourg are close, although clearly dialects as opposed to Luxembourgish.
- Sorry, but firstly, Luxembourg shares a border with Lorraine, not with Alsace. And secondly, in the adjacent areas of Lorraine, no dialect of French is spoken, but only Standard French and, by older persons, a German dialect that is closely related to Luxembourgish. --129.35.231.17 14:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Strange phrase for an article
I can die happy now that I know how to say butcher's son in Luxembourgish.[[User:Nricardo|--Nelson Ricardo >>Talk<<]] 02:39, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
Should we have some more strange Luxembourgish words, like 'fixfeier'?
[edit] Conflicting statement re intelligibility
Not sure if I'm reading the article wrong, but I think there are 2 conflicting statements:
- "it is not intelligible to most Germans as it is more than just a German dialect"
- "It is relatively easy for German speakers to understand Luxembourgish"
Can anyone clarify which is the case? Thanks. munt fish 15:58, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)
I suppose you have to qualify what you German stands for in this case. Luxembourgish is relatively easy to understand for someone from, say, Trier while is not intelligible for someone from Munich. Both people in Trier and Munich are considered German-speakers even though their local dialects differ substantially. rgr Mar 30, 2005
Probably it means that german speakers can easily understand written luxembourgish but can hardly understand spoken luxemburgish (except germans from Bitburg-Trier region). As a Luxembourgeois (or Luxemburger) I can't understand spoken flamish, dutch or afrikaans, but I can undertsand the sense of a newspaper article in these languages. Pitter.
Being from Trier I can confirm Pitter's addition. I can understand Luxembourgish, but I do rely on the speaker's goodwill. There is no doubt that it would be very difficult for native German speakers from other areas (we call ourselves Mosel Franks) to follow a conversation in Luxemburgish. I also have my doubts that reading it is any easier than listening. Isn't the written language based unusally close to the phonetics? Whenever I get my hands on the "Luxemburger Wort" with some articles in Luxemburgish I have to read it out in my head. I'll probably even move my lips.doh' CB
PS> It's a beautiful language. Some native speaker has to add more interesting terms. i.e. how to order a beer, or how to beg for forgiveness if you've been trying to strike up a conversation and assumed everyone speaks German or French.
- I am from the Frankfurt area and I have no problems at all with the Palatinate dialects (geographically close to Luxembourg). But I can neither follow a conversation in Luxembourgish nor in the dialect of Trier. Reading Luxembourgish, on the other hand, is not really a problem, as I can take my time. --Unoffensive text or character 14:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Added Template
Just added a template. [[Haverton 00:36, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)]]
[edit] Luxembourg
By the way it is not true that German people easily understand Luxembourgish. I have experienced many times, that Germans actually do not understand at all what was said when I was speaking in Luxembourgish to my friends or my family. Indeed all the Germans I have met during my studies, actually pointed out to me that it could not be a dialect, as they could not understand it. That people in Trier understand us is quite normal, as it is like 5 minutes from Luxembourg!
^^^^ I dissagree with this statement, its true that Luxembourgish is not "totally" mutually intelligeble with High German but the differences between the two languages when spoken are not extreme and Luxembourgish is closer to High German that many dialects of German spoken in Germany and just about all dialects of German spoken in Switzerland. As far as all the German you met saying it was not a dialect because they couldn't understand well that says nothing because Germans from northern Germany have great difficulty understanding dialects spoken in Bavaria. Swiss television programs (in German) are broadcasted in Germany with subtitles for an example. Because of its official status and cultural acceptance it is accurate to say Luxembourgish is not a dialect, but not because it is not understood by native speakers of High German. The two are very closely pronounced with very similar vocabularies.--84.153.15.166 18:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I have been living with a Luxembourgish family (with 5 children under the age of 13) for 6 months and the opposite is true: speaking Letzebuergisch does not mean it's a breeze to learn German. Children still study it as a formal academic subject and some still have a very difficult time with it. Understanding seems to go well -- cable television offers only 2 channels in Luxembourgish, a variety in German and French, with a few in English, Italian and Portuguese. I only ever see the children watching the channels in German because it is by far the easiest to understand, but when a German family comes to visit the children are visibly taxed to compose dialogue in High German. French is a completely different language, and learning it is very counter-intuitive and difficult for (most) native Luxembourgish speakers. My assessment: Luxembourgish is indeed a mix of German, French and Dutch/Flemmish, but is different from each of these languages to make none of them immediately "mutually intelligible." To the untrained ear it does sound like German, and I think it is by far closer to German than any of the others, but even someone who speaks a little German will hear the difference.
Luxemburgish is essentially a German dialect pronounced a language for political reasons. It would not considered to be a language if Luxemburg wasn't an independent country. It's virtually identical to dialects in Germany across the border, who are considered German by their speakers. Anyway, Luxemburg is now officially tri-lingual: French, Luxemburgish, Standard German, where the local language can be considered any of the latter two, depending on situation.
It's true that Luxemburgish has more French loans than Standard German, but calling it a "mix" of French and German is a bit of a misrepresentation. It's a West Germanic language with loan words. But I don't think that Dutch has a strong influence on it. Luxemburgish is Middle German, not Low German.
Regards 213.73.65.74 01:18, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Luxembourgish is not virtually identical with dialects from across the border. That's not a matter of number of loan words, either. Hunsrueck, Eifel, Saar and Mosel area cover a lot of different dialects (including more speakers than Luxembourgish). They are all clearly part of the German language. Yet the difference to their neighbours across in Luxembourg is quite fundamental and has been so before their relatively recent autonomy.
[edit] The sound of the language
I recently took a trip to Luxembourg to visit with family that I have there. I only have a smattering of knowledge of the 3 langauges (German, French, or Luxembourgish) - this comes from visiting family every several years and taking some French in high school a long time ago.
I tried to pay close attention to the languages spoken so that I could at least tell what language was spoken when. My family all spoke Luxembourgish and a smattering of english. On the few occasions that someone spoke French or German it was like night and day.
The German that I heard was very gutteral and sounded much more rough than the Luxembourgish that I was becoming used to hearing. The French had a more smooth and the sound flowed smoother than Luxembourgish.
I often listen to RTL.lu online to help get more familiar with the language as most of its broadcasting is in Luxembourgish, but don't be surprised to hear some French and a bit of German - especially from call-ins and what not.
A good source of modern German, French and Luxembourgish can be found on the RTL radio broadcasts available online Visit
http://www.RTL.lu http://www.RTL.de http://www.RTL.fr
and look for live radio. Listen to the DJs and hear the differences in the languages.
[edit] Arcelor
Regarding the exemplary phrases: I don't speak Letzebuergesch, but does Arcelor really mean asshole? Why would a large steel company from Luxembourg call itself so Arcelor? Blur4760 07:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
No it doesn't, of course!
Well, as I said, I thought it very unlikely myself, I just could not imagine that a registered user would be so, let's say, daring as to put something on there if it were untrue. Plus, a certain phonetic proximity between the two can't be denied ;). Blur4760 15:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
That's a nice one. Arschloch and Arcelor are phonetically quite similar to each other if pronounced in Luxembourgish. What's more, I think "s" regularly changes to "sch" in Luxembourgish (and in many other German dialects) if preceded by an "r". --Unoffensive text or character 14:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] luxembourgian?
Never in the 7 years I lived in Luxembourg did I hear anyone call the language "luxembourgian" it was always "luxembourgish". I would suggest removing any reference to "luxembourgian"
- A google search for luxembourgish and luxembourgian certainly suggests that luxembourgian is a lot rarer, if it is at all allowed. Teutanic 16:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
-
- 'Luxembourgish' is the language. 'Luxembourgian' is the adjective for the country. They really shouldn't be confused. Hence, I have removed it from the introduction. Also, 'Luxemburgish' is an archaic spelling; English settled upon the French spelling of 'Luxembourg' in the early 20th century. Bastin 17:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
-
-
- I've always heard 'luxembourgish' as both language AND adjective. At least within the Ex-patriate english speaking community in Luxembourg nobody ever says 'luxembourgian'... Teutanic 13:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] May 2006 rewrite
Hi all. I've just rewritten the article to bring it in line with the articles on other EU languages, and to include the extra information from the lb: article. My Luxembourgish isn't fantastic (I've only spent a little time there), so any checks on my translations and further suggestions for comment are very welcome! Aquilina 11:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] In Luxembourgish?
BERG, Guy, Mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sin: Soziolinguistische und sprachtypologische Betrachtungen zur luxemburgischen Mehrsprachigkeit., Tübingen, 1993 (Reihe Germanistische Linguistik 140). ISBN 3-484-31140-1.
Is that book really in Luxembourgish? Although the sentence mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sin is Luxembourgish, the rest of the title is in Standard German. Wathiik 10:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- Mea culpa! Misread the title whilst re-writing the article and didn't notice - I've corrected the book list now. Many thanks! Aquilina 17:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I´m repeating my question as I wasn´t sure if I should write at the top or the bottom of the page: Question Hi. Can anyone tell me tell me more about the linguistic etiquette in Luxembourg. I am a native english-speaker but I also speak French and High German but not Luxembourgish. If I go to Luxembourg which language should I use to talk to people in the shops, on the streets etc?
05 July 2006
In shops: Always French, as many of the employees are from Belgium and France and will not condescend to speak any other language than French. On the streets: I always have the impression that most native Luxembourgers are more fluent in German than in French, but I am nor sure about it. Using German should not be a problem, anyway. --Unoffensive text or character 14:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lux. orthography and pronunciation
The following passage appears in the article on Umlaut:
In Luxembourgish (Lëtzebuergesch), the umlaut diacritic in <ä> and <ë> represents a stressed schwa. Since the Luxembourgish language uses the mark to show stress, it cannot be used to modify the 'u' which therefore has to be 'ue'.
This seems to be almost totally inaccurate, but I prefer to check with people here. And it would be nice to have something about pronunciation in the Luxembourgish article (especially the vowels and diphthongs). CapnPrep 04:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removed text
This belongs in an article on "Languages in Luxembourg" or something like that.
Standard German is called "Däitsch", or sometimes "Preisësch" (Prussian, which has slightly xenophobic undertones) in Luxembourg. Its most common uses are in Luxembourg's newspapers, and in primary school. The main administrative language in Luxembourg is French. Luxembourgish is used by all the radio stations in Luxembourg and is spoken by most of its citizens.
[edit] selected common phrases
I believe at least some of the examples in that section are misspelled, possibly based on regional variations (dialects). For example I believe "Gudden Muergen." Good Morning. should be written "Gudde Moien". But I'm generally no good at written Luxembourgish, so I will see whether someone else from Luxembourgish language wikipedia can take a quick look at that list.--Caranorn 21:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
